Viburnums for Tight Spaces: Rated P-G

Well, I have a border on the side of the house, out front, that is 3' deep by 12'-13' long. The height of the shrubs could be 5'-6', just to the bottom of the windows, but I think that most Vs are wider than tall? I have pretty good clay soil, southern exposure, in the shade of a huge spruce tree, next to a downspout, and I don't want to water a lot. (Naturally, I will water to establish, but don't want pampered pet shrubs). I was debating between hydrangea quercifolia (and what specific cultivar??) and a viburnum or three.

p.s. I have basically a clean slate planned for this area, including, possibly, new edging. We were planning to put squarish fieldstones in place of the flagstones.



This message was edited Apr 30, 2006 11:10 AM

Viburnum farreri 'Nana'
Hydrangea quercifolia 'Sikes Dwarf'

Aren't those pretty short kevin? I have a 3' x 3' peony in the corner (plan to move it). I was thinking of creating a nice hedge with 3 or 4 plants, quite a bit taller than that. As you can see, there is a gate to contend with, it opens against the house.

I can widen the edge of the bed, it's 3 feet from the house to where the flagstones are. Now that I'm looking at it, I might even take out the grass altogether, incorporating the front bed (which is now considerably wider) with the naturally mulched area under the spruce. Then we could plant smallish shrubs, like the Sikes Dwarf, along the current drip line of the spruce, creating a path between the shrubs to the gate.

I'm planning to create a long triangular berm at the property line, to the right of this picture, which would be to the far right of the spruce. I want to plant my Rotsilber maidengrass at the apex of the berm, with an evergreen groundcover and a few small shrubs or plants on the berm. This will shade the hostas planted under the spruce, where some idiot limbed it up! It will also add some contour to a flat yard, creating a little grove effect. I hope.

Width is the problem PG. You could plant something like V. carlesii 'Compactum', but expect 4'x4' or 5'x5'. Viburnum dentatum 'Little Joe' would get 4' tall, but likely as wide or wider than tall. Same goes for bigger varieties of oakleaf hydrangea, like 'Snow Queen'. With height comes width, at least in these two groups. There are some upright versions of some of the bigger Viburnums, like V. prunifolium or V. rufidulum, but I can't think of any that would be tall and only 3' wide. Think about it--that means a central stem with 18" branches. If you have a little more room, perhaps something like V. plicatum 'Newport' would work, or 'Igloo'. What are the max measurements we have to work with?

I was thinking, realistically, 4' x 4' is prob the max? Any other suggestions, for other shrubs, also welcome.

I have considered a winter interest garden of Ilex verticillata 2 'Red Sprite' and 1 'Jim Dandy', with Corylus avellana 'Contorta', edged with sedge.

Also Rhus typhina (wild hair, LOL) and Calycanthus floridus, Belle Etoile mock orange, barberry, spirea and taunton yews.

Kevin, thanks for the recommendation, I love fragrant plants! I'll look for it at the nursery in a couple of weeks. That's when I'll be done with the beds and berm, and finally able to afford some plants!

I know, I suggest a new thread and then I leave town.

It was just too perfect a day to go dig and move 70 odd viburnums to a friend's house. The bed had been dug and tilled earlier in the week. Cool, overcast, just a hint of rain in the air today -- that's the time to handle plants, especially bare root stock.

Got them all transplanted, with the rain picking up as the last ten or so went to ground. With the prospect of rain over the next couple days, couldn't ask for better conditions for re-establishment. I attribute it to living right, growing viburnums, loving cats, a stable wifely unit, and some occasional wine.

But PG has some questions about narrow viburnums and new beds.

I agree with everything Kevin has said, and even with what I didn't read of what he advised. I will add the curveball from down south: move the gate.

This seems to be the obstacle to really having what you want in this area. If the gate was relocated nearer to the spruce's wingspan, then you could have your cake and viburnums, too.

I, of course, have the liberty of not knowing what's on the other side of the existing fence. No matter, that's the beauty of advice from afar. Just move it!

If there were no reason to not move the gate, then you would generate a mucher wider bed next to the house. You could meander the steppingstone walk in any fashion you like, to traverse the new planting arrangement. I would also suggest that the gate open in the opposite direction than it does currently (towards the spruce instead of towards the house). Depending on conditions inside the fence, you could even set it up to open inward instead of outward (then it wouldn't matter which direction, left or right, that it opened).

With this (simple for me to say) change, you suddenly have 5-6' or more of bed space to work with, and the viburnum world open for your enjoyment expands exponentially.

What say you?

VV - I was tinking zat same zing, professor! (That was my Lisa from Green Acres voice, employed to get hubby worked up enought to bend to my every whim.)

My DH agrees! (In theory). Now if I can only get him to actually do it. Um, er, move the fence I mean. Use the Lisa from Green Acres voice with extreme caution, ladies.

There are hostas and a few tiger lilies in a narrow bed on the other side of the gate, nothing that wouldn't survive the hop (she proclaimed optimistically) including a huge Frances Williams hosta I inherited, and would hate to lose. There's a wooden bench centered on the spruce, but it would hardly matter once the gate was closed. I mean it would basically look the same, right? I'll post pics tomorrow, so you can evaluate the situation. I'm thinking it should open inward too, since there's a chimney on the other side, you can see that. So already no room there for big or small shrubs.

Yippee! That's exactly what I want, Viburnums and Cake! Gee, I better get crack a lackin'! I need to, um, take care of a few things. If I want to get that gate moved...! ;-)

Here's our kitty O-ren. She's not really a lap cat...

YOU SAID P-G YOU SAID P-G!!!!

Well, PG can mean Pretty Good, especially if the gate gets moved on the first go-round.

And I'll stop there.

You need to undersand that I aggree that moving the gate is a great idea VV! But I would go one step further. If you want a Big Viburnum MOVE THE HOUSE. After all what are our priorities? DH needs to learn to do what is required to make the garden right! LOL
I just purchased and planted a Onadaga Viburnum today and I'm excited. I wanted a Double-file V but they don't grow here. So consider a Onadaga.(when I was a adolesent that was a great Speedway) It is gorgeous with a big white perimeter and a beautiful red center.

PG could be Particularly Gratifying, in which case Mr. PG was Plain Giddy, and the gate may already be moved by now.

Many matters may have moved, and one could surmise:

Participatory Government
Pandering Grandiloquence
Plagiarized Gyrations
Pantomimed Gestures
Perilous Gymnastics
Panicky Grogginess
Probably Great

That's Kevin's fault, for Purposely Goading.

Duh, PG is for Prairie Girl, right Guy? LOL

Have to drag him over here sometime and blame him for it!

Onondaga is truly my heart's desire, but it gets dry there (I think, last year everything was positively parched, unusually drier than normal). Doesn't 'O' need moist soil to cope? Remember I said, no pampering, of the shrubs. Hee hee.

Phenomenally Gullible

This is another silly question. (I can't take a pic yet, it's raining too hard.) Looks like I'll have to move the best part of the border, where the Frances Williams hostas and tiger lilies live, they're perfectly positioned to cover the red tulips and grape hyacinths. My BIL will be so thrilled, he covets those hostas and I promised to divide them this spring, so it's all good. Joe will just have to dig deep, right? So the whole thing can get plopped down in front of where the gate is now, or nearby. Okay, here's the real question. What, if anything, can I use on the new cedar post (he said I need a new one, since the one by the chimney is cemented in) to make it look old & weathered? I have heard buttermilk, but have no idea if it works or how to apply it. Could use it on a newer section he put in elsewhere as well. Anyone else ever had that problem?

Bleach will make it look old and weathered?? Won't it kill the moss I'm trying to encourage?
So what's your nickname, Fly Guy? LOL I like that, goes good with Party Girl. ROFL.

New posts and a New door and a new fence is the best way to do it. LOL You can set the new post back 3/4" and cap the street side with an old board on the fence somewhere else it wont show. Also you can cut the old one down to good wood and set it on a steel post base set in concrete.
[quote]Onondaga is truly my heart's desire, but it gets dry there (I think, last year everything was positively parched, unusually drier than normal). Doesn't 'O' need moist soil to cope? Remember I said, no pampering, of the shrubs/[quote]
I just planted mine yesterday in a clay pile over pit run rocks and clay. I had to dig down and it is on a slope and provide drainage build a raised bed and amend the soil about 10' in each direction. I used compost from my pile, peat moss, sandy loam, and several bags of soil pep. Now it is not needing any pampering. Then I get to look at it everytime I go out my front door. Now I'm being pampered by my Onadaga.

Ahhh the lure of Onondaga--such beautiful flowers in spring. Unfortunately for me, such crappy leaves in summer. Such an ugly form. I now have three planted out around my place. It gets this last chance to deliver. Three different spots, three different exposures. We'll see if it is worthy of keeping or not. That same mentality applies to it's relatives as well(V. opulus, V. trilobum, but not V. orientale which does not appear to have the 'issues' of the others)

Whatever you just said! What is soil pep, is that legal? LOL

I know we're not getting a new fence, I'll be very happy with the new post! And the bigger, better shrubs. Onondaga could hang out back with me.

What do you guys think of the "winter interest garden"? I

That "whatever" was for sofer not you kevin! LOL

My property isn't big enough for plants that don't earn their keep. Since this part of the property is out front, I want it to impress at least me, as well.

How many times can you move a chokeberry? That's my new little shrub next to the dinosaur egg, by the gate.

Back to the fence post: bleach will kill the moss, but it will vaporize quickly and then you can start new moss again. Buttermilk does help with the moss culture. Sandblasting or wire-wheeling also helps add some texture to new posts. Maybe you can find one that's been sun bleaching on top of the post pile at the farm store. Or try getting an old weathered hedge post from a farm fence that's being taken down. (If you ever get down this way I can give you one, as long as you're nice to me.)

My nicknames are legion, but you can call me "Mr. Wonderful" or "Great One" . . .
;-)

Guy S.

Thanks Starshine! ;-)

edited to say: Joe says our neighbor offered him a pile of old fencing, hope it includes posts!

This message was edited May 1, 2006 12:47 PM

Guy's nickname is gramps.

I thought it was "Oh Great One" Guy? At least that is what I call you. "He who knows all and has soft heart" is the other one.
Soil pep is only finely ground bark that breaks down rapidly (well for montana anyway) and I get lots of it from Home Depot in the torn bag form. I get 40 to 150 bucks worth of goodies every trip to HD for 10.88 per pallet. I had to add a 4th area in my compost area for soil stuff I get from HD.
Kevin tell me why yours is puky? The ones here are very leathery green with beautiful fall color. (red) My Trilobum I shaped beautifully and the leaf is very shiney (sp) green.
Guy you have to know that there are many angry women out there who need to dump on we sensitive men.

This message was edited May 1, 2006 2:46 PM

Osolomio - We're not angry, we just want you men to recognize!

Gramps, I realized given my tender young age, that you were correct in that you should be gramps and not dad. I'm only correcting the error that you so kindly pointed out to me :o))

Sofer, where are those sensitive men you speak of? I haven't seen any of them around :(

Terry

I still want to move the gate, and thus the hostas et al, the chokeberry, etc.

I've decided that I want the winter interest garden more than the viburnums, possibly more than the oakleaf hydrangeas. I'm still torn. Any one have pictures of their own plants that could sway me one way or the other?

Thanks again for your help.

Winter interest and viburnums are not exclusive of one another, at least not here.

I have more than a few species that are more attractive out of leaf and in fruit, than otherwise. Viburnum dilatatum would be the premier species in that regard, and rumor has it (since I don't have them in size) that Viburnum wrightii and Viburnum ichangense fall into the same category. Viburnum setigerum is another with copious fruit that brightens the winter landscape; you need to kill it before you can say "it isn't hardy here."

Add in other bark characters, or other fruiters, and you too can have plants that evoke admiration when you don't want to be out amongst them.

Do you have the proof (pics) to back that up Deep Vee?

Terryr there are many sensitive men we just aren't allowed to express it since birth so we unlearn what is natural. We also have people around us with expectations of men being insensitive so no one sees the soft in us. Some men are ashamed of it and do the opposite. I for one am standing up to say I like being sensitive. I am better for it. Oh don't mess with me or I'll kick your a... LOL
VV : PGirlZ doesn't like decidous branches in winter she was raised in the deep Piney Woods of the UP. (or somewhere conifers ruled) Hee Hee. My Vibs are beautiful in the winter all covered with fresh snow and brigntened by the Red, Orange, and Black berries they throw out through the snow.

Don't tell them all my secrets Sofer! Then I have no, um, secrets. ROFL

This is sooo frustrating, I have finals next week, I'm too old for this crud!

Beer break!

Geez it getting deep in here Sofer. Where'd I put those hip waders of mine......I have a feeling I really need them! John (VV) will be the next to talk about how soft he is...and after John will be Gramps........

I so much would like to go back to college. This time I want to be a geoligist. Or an Anthropologist anyway something different than Vet med. What are you becomming PGirlZ? I loved finals week it meant that I had a couple of weeks off and didn't have to do clinics all weekend. Each test was a flush of the toilet and on to the next one. Today I sit in on classes here at the VoTec and study English Literature. As a veterinary student I never had any electives so no Humanities. Only Sciences.
Hey Terryr its about time for we men to stand up and declare our humanity. I especially like to do it during a bar brawl. LOL

This message was edited May 1, 2006 9:20 PM

What are you reading sofer? English lit was for me a disappointing class that covered stuff I read on my own in 9th grade. LOL When I went to college the first time. We have a vet tech college too. Are you a veterinarian? My good friend I went to high school with is, she is(was?) married to a rocket scientist. Not j/k. LOL.

You would like soils, except this is just an introductory course, as it's just a junior college. Oldest public "community" college in the nation. My goal is to take every horticultural class they offer, or at least pertinent to my endeavors. I am becoming

Sofer, I don't get no respect, I tell ya --- no respect. Them women think they run the world. We sensitive men gotta put em in their place once in a while or we'll end up as chattel. Valley, don't give em any more free advice until they beg for it!

Arrrggghhhhhh!

Guy when 2 sensitive men stand sholder to sholder no one can offend or cajole. No chattel for me I want my rights of superior sex as it has always been. Well until that burn bra time. What was that all about? Men unite and withold paychecks until we overcome. Oh thats right the Venitians have checks too. LOL

You try church in pantyhose, one time. LOL

I wore panty hose once and plastered it with crisco to float down a river in 48 F for a log floating race. It worked pretty good. I didn't get hypothermic and won the race. Nobody knew that I had on the secret clothing though. I'm sure I would have been disqualified.