Organic gardening for dummies help, please...

Hi, ya'll!

Basically my idea of organic gardening is "don't add chemicals", so I use no poisons, lots of composted horse manure and that's about it. I'm leery of products that claim to be "natural" (like pyrethrins...*l*) so I was wondering if anyone knows of this product, or what you all might think about it. Someone recently sent me a small packet along with a trade. it kinda freaks me out. But I really don't know.

"Messenger is technology developed at Cornell University. The active ingredient is "harpin protein". Harpin proteins are proteins that are secreted by plant pathogenic bacteria. Messenger is a harpin that comes from the bacteria that causes Fireblight in apples. This protein does not cause disease! It simply is a marker and alerts the plant that a pathogen is present...or in the case of Messenger, tricks the plant into thinking a pathogen is present. This causes the plant to initiate its own natural defenses, sort of like a vaccination. It makes the plant far more disease resistant. Interestingly Messenger also causes plants to flower more. I think flowering is a natural reaction of plants to a perceived threat. It is a great biological, non-toxic, way to enhance disease resistance and encourage flowering. I think you wil like it. For more info you can go to www.messenger.info"

I can understand your hesitation. Just because something comes from Nature doesn't automatically make it safe. Cornell University has long held an excellent reputation in horticultural activities - as in the publication of Hortus and the potting mix formula, and Messenger has likely been thoroughly tested. Some naturally occurring poisons are very dangerous in full dosage but actually beneficial in small concentrations, such as digitalis (foxglove) used for certain heart
conditions. Still, you might do well to inquire at an agricultural center at one of the University of California campuses. Riverside specializes in citrus and avocados, Davis works with other tree fruits, grapes and almonds, and Santa Cruz pioneered with biodynamic/intensive vegetable gardening.

"Interestingly Messenger also causes plants to flower more. I think flowering is a natural reaction of plants to a perceived threat."

Isn't this kind of contradicting the idea that Messenger is somehow protecting the plants?

I was always under the impression that messenger was not organic--now I may be wrong and make many mistakes every single day...I thought I asked this on this thread before? Or maybe I thought or dreamed I did!?!

I always considered pyrethrins to be a "big gun" in my arsenal...actually haven't had to use it in years...don't think I still even own any...Oh yes; I do have some in Powder form for those spawns of the devil fire ants--but usually use boiling water on them unless they are too close to a "cherished/beloved" plant.
Debbie

Harpin (the active ingredient of Messenger) is a protein made (in nature) by Erwinia, which is a fungus that causes fire blight in trees. Here is a link to the EPA fact sheet on Messenger/harpin.

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_006477.htm

I'm a molecular biologist, so I can offer a little more info if the EPA sheet is confusing or insufficient.

The harpin is being produced by E. coli (which is used to produce all kinds of proteins easily) because of course using Erwinia (which is the fungus causing the blight) would mean that you'd be spraying/adding a disease-causing organism to your plants, and that would be bad! The types of E. coli we use for growing proteins aren't the infectious type like you hear about from restaurant food poisonings, etc.

The E. coli makes a lot of the harpin protein and excretes it out of the cells into the growth medium (usually a broth mixture). They then take that broth with the excreted proteins and usually either centrifuge it, or use other methods to separate the harpin from the mixture, and also separate the E. coli. Sometimes we make all the E. coli split open, in the event that the protein isn't getting excreted by them (and instead staying inside their cells). So the E. coli are like little protein factories, and we use them to make other proteins they don't normally make, like the harpin. That gets purified and put into Messenger.

SAR, which is systemic acquired resistance, is almost like the equivalent of plant immunity. If any pathogen infects a plant, like a bacteria or fungus, it will often cause the plant to increase production of certain protective proteins all over the plant, not just in the leaf or root or whatever place the infection started. This is the plant's way of protecting itself from the attack, kind of like a human immune response, but chemically different. Anyhow, the harpin makes the plant enter that state of SAR, even when there is no infecting organism present. So the plant's "immunity" is kind of turned on all the time. I'm not sure how good this is for the plant over a long period of time but it appears that people have had success with it. It just could, I would think, cause the plant a certain degree of stress. It will need to focus on producing other proteins that it would not normally be producing unless it was under attack, and thus it would have less energy reserves for producing good roots, flowers, fruits, whatever.

So bottom line is that it's using a protein from a normal fungus (Erwinia) that affects trees, but it's making that protein available for use on all plants, and the protein has the same effect on the other plants as it would on the trees - inducing the plants "immune system," which is supposed to help the plant withstand other diseases.

Hope that helps!

Oh!! I think I get it. Kinda like a vaccine? Seems like something that might be okay to use sparingly, perhaps to get something well established, but I don't think it's the sort of thing I'd want to use too much of. I wonder if plants would get "addicted" to it, like with Miracle Grow and the like....
Thanks for the explaination!
Terese

Yeah! Exactly like a vaccine. Good way to describe it!

I love the things we learn here! So ..then...organic column?
Rj

Except that vaccine generally stays in a system for a long time, whereas Messenger is a more short-term (quick fix) immune response.

I did a lot of google searching to see if I could find out if it was specifically organic. All I could find was that the company who makes it has not applied to have it registered as organic. I'm not sure what the precise requirements are to make something "organic" by the official standards. Perhaps the fact that the E. coli are producing the harpin protein, instead of the original organism (Erwinia) makes it not organic any more? To me, there is no question that it is a "natural" product since it's a protein made by a fungal organism that is present in the air around us. At the same time, technically, one could say that this is a product made by a "GMO" because the E. coli that makes the protein is not the original organism that makes it, and the gene from Erwinia that makes the protein has been inserted into the genetic machinery of the E. coli, so the E. coli is a genetically modified organism. Of course, this is quite different from a genetically modified plant, for example. As others point out, just because a product is "natural" does not mean it is "safe." I, for one, would not be concerned about using this product on my plants, and I prefer not to use "chemical pesticides" in my garden. I find this product to be a more earth-friendly alternative.

And as a side-bar, I dislike using the word "chemical" because to me, especially as somone who is deeply involved in science, organic products are also "chemicals," likewise the foods we eat and the air we breathe, but I use it just to differentiate.

exactly..I think our reference to chemicals - is synthetic as opposed to processed from natural sources..at least that is how I reference it.

Yes, I think I agree, but then does Messenger qualify as synthetic? I suppose under that definition it would be, but it is the actual harpin gene that is being used to produce the actual harpin protein, just in a different host. So to me, that isn't really synthetic in terms of how I would define synthetic. I would probably define synthetic as a different compound that was able to mimic the action of the "real" harpin. Sigh...semantics...

Me either..I wouldn/t put it under synthetic.Messenger is (or sounds like)the manipulation of organic/materials already existing in nature.
LOL..yes semantics..

Cmox you did a great job of describing whta Messenger is. Messenger is not synthetic. It is a naturally occurring protein. This protein is secreted by a bacteria called Erwinia amylovora. That bacteria also occurs in nature and causes the disease fire blight in apples. Since Messenger is only a protein it does not cause any diseases, but as Moxon said, induces that plant's natural immunities. The safety profile of Messeenger is great. It is no more toxic than an egg white. As a matter of fact my dog has eaten a few bags of it...yum. Something about that fermentation smell that he finds attractive. Eden Bioscience has not applied for OMRI approval because OMRI doesn't like the manufacturing process that Moxon described so well. But...many things that are OMRI approved are not necessarily safe, and many things that are not OMRI approved are very safe.

Bottom line: Messenger has a great safety profile, is a naturally occurring product, is used to suppress diseases by enhancing a plants immunities, and also encourages bloom. Can you guys tell that I am a scientist with the company????

I'm so glad I started this thread. So many knowledgeable answers and good discussion. Sometimes, because I'm NOT a scientist, in rjuddharrison's words "manipulation of organic/materials already existing in nature" can freak me out a little (I mean, that term describes the atom bomb, gene splicing and alot of things like that, right?! *s*)
It's not that I'm strongly Pro or Con, on the topic of "manipulation of organic/materials already existing in nature", it's simply that for me it's important to at least try to understand what something is in order to come to a decision as to whether or not I choose to utilize it, rather than plunge forward in blind ignorance. Sometimes I can gain enough insight/understanding to make at least a considered judgement, other times, if I'm simply not sure in myself or haven't really gained a clear enough understanding, I will choose to abstain.
For all the good info I've read here, I'll still need to ponder a bit, and decide if it's right for me.
But then, I'm kinda freaky. I've never even bought a seedless watermelon because my heart just screams that it's a crime to manipulate nature in such a fashion that it is unable to reproduce itself.
Like I said, I'm a freak! *LMAO*

Desert_witch - I understand your point. And it's good to be cautious. As someone who has spent years in labs actually manipulating materials existing in nature, sometimes I tend to forget that not everyone else is completely comfortable with things that I consider routine. But I do try to understand, when I'm reminded of that fact! Without wanting to freak you out more, remember that "nature" manipulates "nature" every day. A lot of the things (like seedless watermelons) came from an actual "oddball" seedless watermelon plant or several plants that somebody found in some exotic location (or not so exotic!) and the trait is simply brought into the mainstream through traditional plant breeding methods - just like people who breed dogs or horses picking the parents based on the traits they want from each animal. People just took that plant and used its pollen to breed more seedless watermelons, and so on. So quite often, it's something nature made in the first place and we just get to perpetuate it (or make it more quickly available) than if nature was doing it all by herself. It's not quite that simple with the watermelon - it's kind of complicated genetics to do with chromosome numbers, but I don't want to bore you with that.

But remember, a banana can't reproduce itself by seed either!! Do you buy those? LOL!

hahaha..LOL...I had never thought of it like that..but I certainly do now!!
I am glad for our resident scientists and biologists too... It is fascinating learning things from you guys! Now that I have you going..what about Mighty Plant by the same company?
Rj

Hmmm...I hadn't heard of that one before. From looking at their website, it appears to simply be a "regular" water soluble plant fertilizer with the harpin protein (active ingredient of Messenger) added in. They says that the fertilizer is from a leading manufacturer of "professional grade, water soluble" fertilizer. I'm rather doubting that it's an organic fertilizer since they don't say so. I see that it's 18-18-18 for the NPK, plus micronutrients.

I can imagine thripmaster would be able to tell us more about the potential organic nature (or not) of the fertilizer components.

Hmmm...due to insatiable curiosity I did some searching on Eden Bioscience's patent estate. Seems that they also have a patent to a molecule that elicits the hypersensitive response (i.e., SAR as described in my post on May 1). This one is from Xanthomonas campestris pv. pelargonii, which causes bacterial blight in geraniums. Same idea - it causes that sort of "immune" response in the geraniums, so the concept would be the same in other plants. Their experimental section of the patent shows they had reduced lesions from tobacco mosaic virus on tomato, and also increased growth (15-20%) when treated seeds were compared to untreated. So, perhaps they have a new product in the wings...(thripmaster??!!)

Maybe their Seed Puffer for treating seeds?

From what I can find, the puffer is a different applicator for the Messenger active.

Hmmmm....

I think it would have to be a product with a new active ingredient because although the Xanthomonus protein induces SAR, it isn't harpin. It might have similarity to harpin on a biological level. I'd have to do protein/DNA sequence comparisons for that and I'm not sure I'm quite that motivated! So it would be something other than harpin in the product, but similar activity to harpin.

I have a packet......LOL

Of the Xanthomonas based product? Do tell!!

Yes...
the might plant??

Ah, the mighty plant, as I said above, is the soluble fertilizer with harpin (i.e. messenger). So the mighty plant product doesn't contain the Xanthomonas based peptide.

I just found out about that from looking at the US Patent Office records, and the company has a paten on this other active molecule, which I don't know their name for it yet, because it's definitely not on their website. It is based on a protein made by Xanthomonas, but there isn't a product from it that they are talking about. Yet. Unless there is some test product on the market in some selected areas or something.

I am so glad you guys are interested in this. The fertilizer in Mighty Plant is made by Peters. So you are correct that it is not organic, but it is a high quality fertilizer. The harpin protein in Mighty Plant is slightly different from Messenger. The harpin in Mighty Plant is one of our 2nd generation harpins. It includes harpins produced by 4 different bacteria (including the one that Messenger comes from) and it includes only the active domain of these proteins. Our experience has been that this 2nd generation harpin is much more effective on a wider range of plants and works at a lower rate. It is currently sold in the ag markets under the name ProAct. We probably will make it available to home gardeners soon (without the fertilizer). The protein from Xanthomonas is a protein that we did some experimenting with a few years back. We decided that Messenger was more effective. But if my memory is correct, I think this protein is one of the harpin proteins included in Mighty Plant and ProAct.

The Puffer seed treatment is the same harpin protein as Messenger. It just has a different carrier that makes it easy for the product to be applied to and stick to seeds.

You guys are a very inquisitive bunch! Most people’s ears and brains shut down when you start talking about something as technical as harpin protein. I never cease to be amazed at DG members!

LOL...we love learning!!
The more I hear technical terms, and understand some of them, the less technical it seems.
You must have a great time at work, getting to engineer some of these formulas.

I don't do any engineering. I just test in the field....or solicit others to test in the field. Are you kidding, I would go crazy if I had to hang out in the lab all day....or even in the home office for that matter!

LOL..even better then huh? Yes being out of an office is supreme. Sounds like you know how though!

Ditto on going crazy in the lab. That's why I left the lab and ended up as a patent agent instead. Now I go crazy interpreting patent claims, but it's more rewarding to me than lab work.

I see you said Mighty Plant only includes the active domain of the harpin peptides. Do they work like Bt peptides in the sense that Bts are activated in the insect gut? So would the harpin be activated inside the plant once the bacteria have infected the plant? Or is there some kind of targeting peptide on the inactive form that gets cleaved at some point?

It might be enlightening to know that in medicine, the technique of genetically modifying E. coli (and other micro-organisms like single-celled yeast) has produced therapeutic proteins. Two famous ones are insulin and plasminogen activator (a clot-busting agent).

Insulin used to be isolated from animals (pigs and others), but some diabetics developed hypersensitivity to it. Those people need the "recombinant" insulin made by this technique.

I would say calling harpin treatment a "vaccine" is not accurate. For one thing, it does not provoke production of a specific antibody to a single organism, which vaccines do. Harpin acts like a hormone, not an antibody. It's more like estrogen or thyroxin in that it "turns things on", causes a general reactive response in the immune system. It does not have specific activity against a specific pathogen.

Sorry to go on....I'm a retired physician (pathologist) and I'm compelled to put in my two cents.

OK Mox. You have officially exceeded my knowledge base! I'm going to have to call in the lab science bunch to answer you questions if we continue down this road. But here is my best shot at answering your question. Harpin proteins do not actually ever enter a plant. They are much too large. The bind with binding sites on the outside of the plant (likely also in the stomata). Once the harpin binds with the plant, the plant "recognizes" that there is a pathogen present and sends signals to the plant to mount its defenses, hence the name of our flagship product "Messenger"! The protein never enters the plant at all and in a short time simply degrades but the reaction initiated in the plant remains. So, I am guessing that the active part of the protein present in ProAct and Mighty Plant is simply the part that interacts with these binding sites.

Missgarney: you described this whole process very accurately. You analogy is technically more correct. I wish there were a simple way to describe this whole thing to home gardeners that are not scientists. I think the vaccination analogy came along because it was something that home gardeners could relate to. We also considered an analogy like Echinatia which used to be thought to bolster immune systems. Then gave up on that because harpin proteins actually do initiate defenses. But you are correct in that they are not specific to a single pathogen. It is to a wide range of pathogens, insects, and even environmental stress.

It is amazing the things that get discussed on DG!

Definitely right Missgarney - we were going for an analogy that the average gardener would relate to, and vaccine misses the mark for the reasons you outlined. But I think it gave people a way to understand that harpin activates the SAR response in the plant without having to get really heavy handed on the science.

Really good point bringing up the recombinant insulin - I'd not even thought of that angle.

Thripmaster - got it. I was thinking that the harpin protein was much smaller. All this discussion has resulted in my actually wanting to buy some of it and give it a try! Maybe I will do so on the weekend.

I have 3 kids in college you know, so maybe you should buy 3 packs and some stock!

LOL...I do have nearly 200 tomato plants this year, maybe I will need extra! But I'll be conducting controlled "experiments" in the yard, so I hope to see a difference between the treated and untreated. Might give it a go on the cantaloupes also.

Strangely enough, this all reminds me of the approach to obesity described in the book "Fight Fat After Forty".

There is a school of thought that holds that when stress hormones go up in a human (for whatever reason), the body responds metabolically by stimulating appetite and food-getting behaviors...in effect, preparing for famine or some other disaster, which used to be a whole lot more likely in prehistory (when a supermodel-type could not have survived a single winter, let alone reproduce and pass on those supermodel genes).

So it could be that those hefty Messenger-treated plants are really just like people who are obese due to stress-induced overeating...I mention no names.

I would certainly be interested in any studies on the long-term effects of this sort of stimulation on plants. I understand that long-term for us means a life cycle, but I'm more interested in any genetic changes occurring over multiple plant life cycles, saved seed, etc. Interesting discussion! I don't plan on using Messenger, myself. Luddite tendencies & all.

My body shifts into fat mode when I'm nursing. Go figure. sigh.

Oh boy, do I agree with that! With the stress levels at my job these days, I think just breathing makes me go "food gathering." Preparing for disaster indeed...with all the layoffs we've had lately and the massive reorganizations, one never knows when one's security tag will suddenly cease to work. It's enough to drive anyone to the vending machine. I try to stick with those 100 calorie packs of crackers.

If someone could come up with a nice antidote to this problem, I will be a guinea pig.

Missgarney you might be very close to what the plant is doing. I think that all of the mechanisms of plant defenses are not completely understood, but what you are saying makes sense when applied to plants. If you measure photsynthesis 3 days or so after treating with Messenger you will almost always find an increase. Sort of like food gathering! Maybe in preparation for a problem. Messenger also induces bloom. Perhaps it is making an effort fo carry on the species in light of a peceived threat (that is not really there!). My grandfather used to go outside and smack around plants that were reluctant to bloom with a rolled up newspaper. He felt like this made them bloom by giving them a fright. Maybe that is the same mechanism.

We have done some long term studies because we often get the question about there being long term ill effects due to the plant constantly working so hard. Studies in grapes and citrus. After 5 years the trees/vines were actually healthier. Maybe because they better resist sublethal pathogens that normally would be weakening them and eventually kill them.

Zeppy, thanks for the word of the day. I had to go look up Luddite! I plan on using it on my kids tonight.