clay soil

Hello there;

Has anyone heard of a product called Zeolite? I understand that it can be used to loosen up clay soil, along with some other uses. I live in Zone 9a and I struggle with clay. I wonder if this might be of benefit?? Thanks!

I had never heard of it, so did some Googling. I too have stubborn clay. The only agricultural reference I found (there must be others) mentioned a slow release of potassium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite
Yuska

That sounds like greensand, which is also called a "soil conditioner." I like it for the nutrients, but I can't say it has loosened up my soil. Organic matter has, though.

We have real bad clay here too--I've just "sheet composted" (another way of saying heavy mulching, and I do mean heavy mulching) for 12 years and built the soil from the top down. This is a time consuming method but if you start now it helps. I have really good loamy soil 18-24" down now.
Debbie

I sheet compost too, though I didn't know that was what it was called. It has worked in my garden in about three years. However, apparently my yard was gardened back in the 40's, and had veggies that fed the entire neighborhood. So, it may be that I am just bringing the soil back to what it once was.

Hello SuperK, this is the way I did it. Mine was horrible too, but nothing works like organic matter.
Check it out. http://www.texasstar.org/index.php?pg=soil-improvement
Josephine.

Double digging is the best way to garden - no matter what soil you have. I have done it, and the beds are not only better in the short run, but if you are doing perennial gardening they stay more fertile and healthy. I do the sheet composting in the very back of my backyard, where the clay is particularly bad, but I can't devote the time to redig the entire length of my yard.

I too had clay soil to the extent of heavy rains producing some ponding. Used a product called Turface MVP with great success. Use between 2-4 lbs per square foot mixed with peat moss or other organic matter. Epsoma has a soil conditioner product that comes in 27lb bags but is a lot more expensive than turface and appears to be the same product.

Check-out your local Ag-Way and go to www.turface.com. Turface is used by many professional grounds keepers

TurfaceMVP is expensive and difficult to find. A good, readily available and cheap substitute for it is a "kitty-litter" type of clay product sold at your local auto parts store (eg, Auto Zone, Advanced Auto Party, NAPA, etc). Its primary use is to clean up oil/liquid spills on garage floors but it also can be used as a good soil conditioner. In fact the bag that I bought even lists the soil conditioner application in the instructions on the back of the bag. I paid $5 for a 40# bag.

Thank you all for your good advice. I found out, that "Zeolite" a mineral substance, is indeed a good soil conditioner and is what plain old fasioned clay cat litter is made of. It, along with other amendments, loosens soils, and I have also read that it can absorb "toxins". Im gonna try it. Thanks all !

I'm late on this but.... are you saying, YardenMan, that you put clay-like kitty litter oil absorbing material in clay soils to improve them?

(Always wanting to learn, but think I misunderstood...)

Here is a good thread on clay in general. Towards the bottom there are a couple of fine posts by, ahem..., me, with some links about zeolite. I agree that it sounds weird at first to be adding a clay to clay.

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/499950/

David

Zeolite trivia:

In the early 80's I worked in a lab and we used Zeolite in the process of extracting cholesterol from human serum in order to measure the levels.

SuperK, I am glad to hear that you found out about zeolite. Clay, Silt, and sand are the basic componants of soil. Adding, humus and other things to amend it is what makes or breaks a soils fertility for plants. I have posed the question to my Soil Science professor, because I struggle with rock, limestone, and clay top soil purchased from the local yards.
He explained alot, more than this thread could hold, so in brief.................

In order to change the porosity of clay you have to ammend it. One possible way is to add sand to increase the pore space(porosity) and add a lot of organic matter. If you have not already started, get a compost pile started and just add add add add and add. Over time you can change the soil.
Good luck
I quit trying and just started raised bedding. Now I can plant what I want.
calvin

edited for spelling errors.....

This message was edited Sep 8, 2006 4:36 PM

There are many types of zeolite from a crystalite mineral to plastic forms. I have 80 pounds in a sack that was taken out of a 1960s water softener.

You need to look at Soil Foodweb. Great material on conditionng soil. Much of the the info by Dr Eliane Engham is both there and on a number of USDA sites. Acompany who's products I have been using with great success in Turf Pro USA. They have just come out with their product in a 40 pound bag of dry product that I am now using to bring life back into soil. Seems to be doing great. The products are 100% organic.

Ivy1 I'm surprised that no one called you on your statement that "double digging is the best way to garden - no matter what soil you have". There is a lot out there about the virtues and advantages of "no till" methods. And I can say from experience that making someone double dig our rocky clay would not be allowed under the Geneva Conventions.

When double digging is done correctly, the layers of the soil and hence the microbial population is minimally disturbed. This is very different then using something like a rototiller which destroys the soil structure and kills the microbes by exchanging the topsoil with sublayers.

Furthermore, in the biointensive method, the procedure is different after the initial digging and once the soil is well loosened you eventually, no longer need to do very much with it at all, i.e. the no till method. What double digging does, is to accelerate the rate at which the garden bed is brought to a high level of productivity, by uncompacting the soil down to a great depth quickly. My experience has been that, in particular, with very heavy clay soils the microbe population tends to be extremely low anyway, until you add organic matter and support growth of the microbial population.

There's nothing wrong with the "no till" method, it's just a different approach.

My second cousin farms the home place and is no-till. Course, just planting and adding nitrogen does dig in some.

I raise more than a dab of sweet corn which makes a fair amount of residue....I do chop it up with a lawn mower and it rots down surprisingly fast when done as soon as the corn is picked. Still I can't imagine making a good ridged seed bed without some tilling for many of the crops....let alone ridging for sweetpotatoes. Why any ridging? If you have been through an Indiana spring with some heavy rains, you might understand.... Course double digging would also help drainage, but for a large area, it might be very hard on the back LOL

With your corn, after you mow it down, how long do you have to let the bed sit before it can be planted or dug further? Besides just mowing it down, how much work is involved in creating a usable bed.

I am going to plant some daikon radishes and possibly some cover crop/foraging chicory and was wondering, if I grow them through the winter and mow them down in the spring, would I have to wait a whole extra season before I could do anything with the bed?

Daikon is an annual, but the foraging chicory is perenial. I don't know weather mowing it down is sufficient to stop it's growth, or if I would have a hard time stoping it.

Since my soil is heavy clay, I double dig some beds, but would like to plant cover crops in others to make some of the digging easier.

For larger scale farming, there are these things called U-bars that get dragged with tractors and another commercial product for loosening up the soil with less damage to the soil structure. Their not as good as double digging, but a whole lot better than rototilling. One such example of a product to do this is http://www.yeomansplow.com.au/ I don't know if these are available in the US, but I'm sure there are other products. I ran across this link on the seedsofchange lists. There are plans in one of the Ecology action publications that tell you how to make your own U-bar.

With your corn, after you mow it down, how long do you have to let the bed sit before it can be planted or dug further? Besides just mowing it down, how much work is involved in creating a usable bed.



I turn it under in the fall. Some beds I got don't really need tilling as they are very loose soil and the residue is light or it is removed and mowed up The corn area though gets plowed once a year [uh. yes, J. I. Rodale preferred some plowing]. I could plant a fall crop after the earlier corn, but prefer not to. After fall plowing, the soil works up very nicely in the spring.

perhaps there will be an article or contact at this site that may be able to help you on the no-till question.

http://www.newfarm.org/depts/notill/index.shtml

That's an interesting site with the links.

One concern with organic no-till after a few years is perannial weeds and trees. Also soil compaction can be a problem with the narrow machinery making a lot of tire compaction...example: the roller cutter . Herbicide machinery covers 60 feet in a pass.

"[uh. yes, J. I. Rodale preferred some plowing]"

Grinnin' here, Indy! And yes, J.I.Rodale sure was a great mentor, eh?

nataraj, if your grow your daikons/cover crops thru the Winter, mow them in the Spring, you'll only have to wait a couple weeks (if that much, depending on the temps) before you can plant. Warm air temps and warm ground temps will certainly break down the plant matter fairly quickly, especially if you are choosing to double-dig.

Some ground covers/green manures can just be mowed, not dug/plowed/roto-tilled under, and you can plant directly into it. (Hairy vetch immediately comes to mind.)

I sow crimson clover each Fall, it winters over wonderful here (makes a great green mat!) and is then turned under. In a week I'm usually planting in that area. Oats would do you the same justice, too.

Like you, we have heavy clay, too. It requires constant amendments and working to keep it of good tilth. Due to the hot temps here in the South (NC) much of any amendments break down fairly fast...it's not a one-time episode here but it continual. (And those "U-bars" you mention, it sounds like what we call "sub-soilers"...and yes, they are great for loosening up the soil/clay, allowing free movement of all things from water to earthworms to microbials to distribution of organic matter.)

As for no-till, it has its place and can be used for some years but definitely not each year. Otherwise the 'clay' soil in our area would (as Indy said) end up being compacted and nearly lifeless. In other words, without incorporating something into (not on top of) the soil the underground microbial units would have nothing to feed on thereby helping to keep the proper tilth of the earth. (I've noticed this in my "No Work" garden where constant mulch has be administered; there is a definite line of demarcation showing just how far the mulch breakdown has contributed to the clay and it is only a couple inches, so far.)

Not meaning to get long-winded but let me also contribut this...

"Double-digging" is about as close to "plowing" as you can get. Both pretty much do the same job. Double-digging is basically shoveling a trench/furrow, throwing the "diggins" to the side (temporarily with the first row) then digging yet another trench next to the first and throwing those diggings into the first, etc.... Plowing does the same thing; it digs a furrow/trench, throws the diggings aside. The next plowed row digs a new trench and throws the diggings into the first trench. Voila! Double-digging via plowing. Both systems basically flip the soil, putting the uppermost regions further down, incorporating the goodies from the top of the soil further down and at the same time bringing up the goodies from further below into the upper reaches of the soil.

Roto-tilling, on the other hand (which I also do, depending on the need) tends to break up the soil in its place, pulverizing it and leaving it where it is. Improper roto-tilling will do some serious damage to the life of/within the soil. Bad news, eh?

All systems be they "double-digging", "plowing", "roto-tilling", "no-till" certainly have their place. None of them can be singled out as the one 'all purpose' technique that we all should abide by.

It sure is nice to see such great input from all ya'll on this topic! I love it! It really helps me help others to get such great perspectives from so many people from around the World.

Thanks, Folks!
Happy Growing, in all your gardens of Life.

Shoe.

Now, that was delightful, Shoe.

Speaking of J. I. Rodale a bit...... We got his Prevention Magazine way back there. J. I. was a pioneer who had to experiment on himself as the guinea pig in those days. His dad and the two older brothers died of heart attacks at 52 years of age. The next brother was shaking in his boots when he got that age, but he lived to 54 years!. Well, old J. I. was determined to find some answers. He didn't have access to much of the knowledge that we do now...so we owe him a lot of thanks . He lived to 70 years old and yes, he died with a heart attack, but 70 years was proof that his ideas were working even with the limited knowledge he had.

Great post, Shoe. That was really helpful to see that these beds will be digable in the spring. I do intend to double dig them, but hopefully the cover/compost crops will make that easier. I also have white crimson clover seeds, wooly lana pod vetch, wheat, rye and fava beans for the fall. I'm experimenting with a few different things. The ecology action biointensive method recommends to plant a mix of fava beans, vetch, wheat and rye all in one bed. Their approach is generally to harvest the biomass and add it to the compost, but since I have enough land to play with, I may just turn some of it in.

Often times we don't start getting steady rain until December or January. Some years, it's been even later. Do you know if there are any covers crops/green manures that can be planted very late to grow in places that are not convenient to irrigate yet? We do have some freezing temperatures by that time.

The biointensive approach as taught by John Jeavons does not actually exchange the topsoil with the subsoil. One can add compost to the lower levels when double digging, but as much as possible the idea is to maintain the same layering of the soil/subsoil. He says that moving the high microbe content topsoil to lower levels will kill the microbes. We use a digging fork to loosen the soil without turning it and a flat spade to move 1 foot of soil from the top part of one trench to the top part of the next trench without turning it.

The classic double digging tools with a 25 year warranty are these fork and spade:
For some reason, the direct links won't work. Go to http://www.groworganic.com and search item number GDS252 and GDS251 in the search box.


Do you add any sand or rock dusts to your clay soil?


This message was edited Sep 24, 2006 12:09 PM

garden_mermaid: Very cool link. One of the objections that some of the biointensive folks have about turning cover crops in and then planting them shortly after is that the not sufficiently composted carbon biomass robs nitrogen. It is for this reason that they harvest the crops and add them to the compost. If enough land is available, one can leave beds idle and allow for time for the biomass to break down before planting, but it's still good to know that the bed can actually be dug shortly after cutting down the crop.

Indy, yep, J.I. did wonders, didn't he. Both with himself and with the 'organic' movement. (Was it him or maybe J.R. that died in Russia...I'm remember a car wreck or something along that line.)

Nataraj...I've not read much of Jeavons, am familiar with his writings but have never delved into them. Does he say why to move the topsoil over? (referencing to "We use a digging fork to loosen the soil without turning it and a flat spade to move 1 foot of soil from the top part of one trench to the top part of the next trench without turning it)

If you move it over how does that help the garden? Does he explain why you couldn't just loosen the soil with the digging fork and leave the topsoil in its place?

I saw on a gardening show (years ago!) that some of the European growers use those digging forks and would never think of plowing/tilling their soil and they really had some beautiful soil!

As for turning in the biomass...yep, I agree, it certainly will "rob the nitrogen" (temporarily) so its important to utilize good timing, eh? Some folks will augment with another source of N to compensate for the temporary unavailability of the biomass-produced N from the cover crop.

Hey nataraj, if you do the mixed green manure/cover crops (fava beans, vetch, wheat and rye) hope you take notes and take pics. Sounds like a pretty good mix to me. (Plus I LOVE fava beans!)

Sorry, but I can't think of any cover crops that would germinate in your freezing temps of Dec/Jan. Will be thinking on that one though and if something comes to mind I'll holler.

Shoe.

nataraj, your links to the PVFS digging fork and spade are not working. I used the search funcion on their site to pull up digging forks and digging spades. They have a variety. Do you recommend any particular one?

I think those of us with clay soils may need to alternate techniques until our soil no longer resembles "clay soil". When that time comes, we may be able to cut back on the double digging/plowing and go to a no-till method, if desired.

I'm going to apply activated EM to the lower soil levels when we double dig for fall planting this year. It will be interesting to see if we notice a difference next year.

Horseshoe: Yea, here's roughly what double digging looks like:

First wet the entire bed really well. One way is to water deeply with a sprinkler for about 3 hours. I sometimes use driplines and wet the bed really good over the course of several days. Then you want to let the bed dry out some for 2-3 days. The bed should be moist, neither too dry nor muddy when digging. Either damages the soil structure.

Remove any weeds or grass.

Using a digging fork, loosen up 1 foot of the entire bed. You can add a layer of compost (1 inch is recommended), and amendments to the top of the entire bed at this time, though I often do this at the end.

Starting at one end of the bed, dig a trench the width of the spade/fork and 1 foot deep. Remove the topsoil from here and save for layering into compost pile.

Next use the digging fork to loosen the second foot of soil from where you dug the 1ft deep trench (this is why you move it from one trench to the next, because you are uncompacting the soil to a depth of 2 ft.)

For poor soil, additional, compost/organic matter can be added at the one foot level.

Using the spade, move the top 1 ft of topsoil from the the next section into the 1 foot trench. I do it about 6 inches at a time, but without exchanging the top 6 inches with the bottom 6). As you uncompact the soil, you will end up above the previous level of the bed. In practice, I find, on the first digging in heavy clay that I end up removing extra soil (I do it mostly from the bottom foot) from the bed, because as I uncompact the soil to a depth of two feet, I would end up with way too much height in the bed. A raised bed here is just one that has a few inches of soil above the level of the ground. It is not necessarily a bed with raised sides, though there is nothing wrong with that for those who want to take the trouble to do that.

In this new trench, loosen up the next 1ft down and continue digging the entire bed.
__________________________

For small gardens, the Compost crop mix can be purchased premixed for 100 sq ft beds. I though it came with the inocculants, but perhaps not. They sell those seperately and they do improve the effects of the cover crops. http://www.bountifulgardens.org/prodinfo.asp?number=MCO%2D6300

Garden_mermaid: For some reasons the links work when I preview them and break when I hit send. I've updated to post to point to the correct items. The recommended ones are painted steel and can rust, but are much stronger than the stainless steel or other ones and are recommended for heavy clay or otherwise heavy use. Bountiful gardens also sells these same items http://bountifulgardens.org/prodinfo.asp?number=SDI%2D9040

I think that a key to moving the clay toward's a loam texture is to somehow add sand or possibly rockdust. I'm not sure why some people have the concrete problem, but John does say to add sand to clay. There are very specific ratio's of sand/silt/clay given to achive the desired consistency. There are also recommended amounts of organic matter. If I remember correctly, it's roughly 30% for soil like ours and less for tropical environments.

I do, sometimes use a pick axe to help break through the hardpan, but I do make sure that it is wet properly. Even though those tools are very strong, care needs to be taken not to do to heavy prying with them, particularly on big rocks.

Oh, and PVFS charges a pretty high shipping charge on those tools. You might check common Ground. I'm sure they carry the same tools.


This message was edited Sep 24, 2006 12:37 PM

Oh and there is a double digging video available: http://bountifulgardens.org/prodinfo.asp?number=BEA%2D1030

thanks nataraj. We actually have a digging fork & spade. I just thought it would be helpful to get a clarification for all readers. I do think the problem of turning clay to concrete by adding sand is a factor of mix ratio, insufficient organic matter added at the same time, and weather conditions at time of adding the sand, ie, if it's hot. A similar problem can happen to those who add straw as an amendment to clay soil without adding sufficient sand. The adobe bricks that are used for builiding are made with straw and clay, then baked in the sun.

Garden_Mermaid: I'm not suprised that you already have a fork/spade. Thanks for checking up on my posts. I'm very interested in doing the EM/Bokashi, but not till I've gotten some more beds dug. With making my herbal medicine and planting on the new moon, then pressing out my tinctures/transplanting on the full moon, digging beds in between, there just isn't enough moon's.

Have you ever eaten the EM/Bokashi? It's supposed to be an excellent probiotic supplement too.

What's EM/Bokashi?

My old degenerating back is aching just from reading your post, nataraj. But I have not only clay, not only rocks, not only roots, but STEEPNESS to work with. If we want a new hole, we've got to use a maddock. And I still can't figure out which is more difficult: standing above, below, or to the side of the hole as you dig. The last garden space we created required a bulldozer and the building of 12 inch deep raised beds. There are reasons no one ever did anything with this land before save cut down trees for timber.

wow, missgarney, those are challenging conditions!

nataraj, I haven't tried eating any of the EM directly, although my plants seem to like it and I've had good results using it around the house.

darius, EM stands for "Effective Microbes" or "essential microbes". It is based on the research of Dr. Teuro Higo in Japan. It's used around the world for agriculture, health and environmental purposes.
Here are some links with further info.

http://www.gardeningforthefuture.com/
http://www.emamerica.com/data/
http://www.eminfo.info/getstarted1.html#What
http://www.emtechnologynetwork.org/index.html
http://www.scdworld.com/deliver.cfm?page=emtech

Thanks, I'll read up on the links when I get a chance.

Shoe,

J. I. Rodale died in Dick Cavett's television studio just before going on tv to a national audience perhaps for the first time. His son Robert died in an auto accident.

Thanks, Indy...I knew one of them died in a car accident.

nataraj, maybe when I decide to downsize my garden I'll try some "double digging". And by the way, what I've found out about adding sand to clay not only has to do with the ratio but also the type of sand. Very coarse sand is required, not fine sand like playground sand or mortar sand.

As an aside and a bit off topic, nataraj, those links probably didn't work because they were very long. DG tends to throw them off if they are too long. What a DGer suggested to me was to copy the URL and then go to http://tinyurl.com/create.php and paste it into the block. It's a great way to shorten the URL and then DG will accept it!

Off and running today; had a great rain yesterday so want to go admire the plants and then take some cuttings for rooting today!

Nice day to All!
Shoe