Wisteria strikes again....

So I picked up a bareroot W. sinensis, (Chinese Wisteria) today at wallyworld for about $5. It appears (by the pic) to be a purple/lavender colored trailing type. There are 3 canes about 8" tall from the rootball. I do know how mauch support, pruning, etc. these take...but I'm wondering about planting. Do it like a tree? Without amending the soil at all? Maybe toss some composted manure on top? Or compost tea? Any and all suggestions gratefully welcomed!

Amend the heck out of anything you plant. (Composted manure deep and wide in your case) The wisteria will enjoy the organic matter any time, but the organic nitrogen could be useful to it as it grows up from being a tiny thing to practically a climbing tree. But, don't fertilize newly planted things. The reason is that a person wants the plant to get used to the local area and establish new roots before any top growth is produced. Also remember to harden off your bareroot anythings.

I understand from a Wisteria collector that they should not be left to actually wrap their main trunks around anything, they need very strong support, and should be pruned back to the year's first couple buds every year. That is, before spring bud break, snip off all but 4 inches of last year's growth. (on an established and sized plant)
It was nice in chat with you,
K. James

It's a knock-your-sox-off beautiful vine for one week out of each year. The rest of the time it tries to take over the world. Watch for it to slither across where you aren't watching it--and it can take over a tree in almost no time. JamesCO is right in saying to watch out for the trunks. Those slithery vine things it sends out become trunks eventually if left to their own ways. I fight it constantly--keeping it out of flower beds, out of trees, etc. I can't imagine what mine would do if I ever fed it.

Some people here keep it confined on itself and it makes a lovely specimen shrub shape that cascades.

I asked someone once how to start a cutting of it. He said you just throw it on the ground and stomp on it. I laughed, but I think he was pretty close to right on. It takes about any kind of care.
For your very dry climate, the care would be different from here, but maybe just in the amount of water.

All in all, is it worth the trouble? Yeah, I would have to say it is. The fragrance and the lovely flowers cascading everywhere.....you can't beat it.

Here I wish I had a good place for one! I am thinking of training one up a 6' post left from a Privacy fence I... destroyed... to gain some more garden space. Unfortuantely, I know that when I leave this house, the nearby Catalpa will reach near enough to it to get strangled!

I still think about the rare variegated ones and where I might put one...
K. James

JamesCO--
How many feet of runners would you like to have?
LOL

Or how many hours of future pruning labour, you mean?
And you don't mean to say you have a variegated, right?
K. James

No, but a little paint would make them variegated if that would get some of them out of here. LOL.

For those of you who grow Wisteria, I have a general question and hope someone can answer.

I recently planted wisteria seeds. They germinated quickly. They are supposed to be the dark blue/purple variety. After 3 weeks, the seedlings are almost 4" tall and seem healthy.

I read recently that you cannot grow successful wisteria from seed and that they are only good for stock plants (for grafting basically). Is that true? I can't remember exactly where I read that, but it might have been in a commercial catalogue, so I'm skeptical.

Please let me know whether you have had success planting from seed -- i.e. will the plant flower (all things being right, including the weather, soil, water, etc.) and if not, is there anything I can do to help it?

Thank you.

Lu

They are great from seed. Diverse gene pools are sonderful and are a result of seeds.

But what you read is right in a few respects:
The problem is this: Once a plant ahs flowered, it has hormonal markers that tell the plant it has bloomed. Stem cuttings of a big, blooming plant carry that marker and will bloom much earlier than seedlings of the same age. Nursery stock is always either stem-cuttings or grafts, which makes them essentially clones. If every Wisteria from one place is identical, you can see how a negative trait could cause lots of problems. But it also means a proliferation of good traits, including vigour and bloom time. The cultivar, or identity, or nursery stock is selected for good traits, one of them is probably a propensity to bloom when young, which may be unique to that cultivar and rare in seed-grown guys.

In my opinion, it is better to be patient and have your own individual, seed-grown wisteria. You can amend you soil like mad and make that plant healthy to blooom it earlier. But if you need that more instant garden impact, I understand that fully. Most of my woody plants are cultivar selections. Like Ginkgo biloba 'Autumn Gold.' You can always tell a tree is a clone if it has a spiffy name like that.

I hope someone will crop up with the average statistic of seedling/clone bloom time in years. I think it is something like 3-4 years for cuttings and 4-15 for seeds.

Hope this helps you, Lu,
K. James

Well! Thank you everybody for the helpful info! It's all getting pasted into my notebook!

JamesCo, You pointed something out to me that I hadn't realized at all. *duh* I erroneously thought that the terms compost (verb) and fertilize were interchangeable. I amend the sandy soil here for everything, because there is ZERO organic material in it. But when I think of "fertilizing" I usually just add more composted horse manure that I pick up at a nearby ranch by the truckload, free for the shovelling. I've always stayed away from "plant foods" and "fertilizers", frankly because I don't really understand which ones might be scarey/icky chemicals, and which ones are healthy and safe.

So when my neighbor told me if I plant trees here I shouldn't amend the soil, or the roots will just grow round in the amended portion and sortof become "rootbound" like in a pot, because they won't want to go out into the native soil. Some of the books I've read say that too, and others say to amend? ! But I like to toss a lil compost even around my established trees to give them a lil nutrition! I don't know...I suppose I just follow intuition, when faced with too much contradictory info. It seems to me if I loosen the soil around it, (whatever I'm putting in) and then amend the center of the hole/bed to get the plant started.....

*LOL* I'm just muddling along here, and trusting Mother Nature to help!!!

I'm planting mine near an openframed sculpture I created in the front yard over the broken concrete walkway out of steel quonset hut frame sections. They are each 1/4 of a circle, about 20' long. I buried the bottom 2' and spaced them at varying distances, but where the tops meet and are wired together. I think they'll make a strong arch for the wisteria to spread out and cascade from when it gets up there.
I was thinking to braid the beginning canes to train them as the "trunk" and then allow them to lace the 3 steel arches together as they grow upward.
It was nice to chat with you, too! Hopefully we'll do it again soon!

And GardenGram....if this one survives the summer, I'll be in touch for some of tose runners....I LOVE Wisteria, and can think of LOTS of places around th ranch where it would be lovely!! I'm planting mine near an openframed sculpture I created in the front yard over the broken concrete walkway out of steel quonset hut frame sections. They are each 1/4 of a circle, about 20' long. I buried the bottom 2' and spaced them at varying distances, but where the tops meet and are wired together. I think they'll make a strong arch for the wisteria to spread out and cascade from when it gets up there.

Excellent question, "Desert Witch" (Forgive me, I forgot your name during one of several pleasurable chats.)

Amend amend amend. Amen. The gardener's prayer. If you dig a hole with flat, glazed sides and amend the inside, teh plant's roots will stop at the wall, or rather, the interface to opt for the better soil. This is often called "the bathtub effect" and the reason that it is suggested to score/break the rootball of plants you are planting.

The fix: Use a turninng for kor something to losen the sides and bottom, so that there is a gradual change from native to amended soils. This will attract worms who will make it all better and imporve soil structure. I often opt to go the hard way (an idealist) and amend the whole area deeply. It is backbreaking and rewarding. Also, a good mixed-in top dressing will help to slowly but surely increase the prganic content of surrounding soil.

Note: Horse manure has chemicals in it that are contained in fertilizers, so it is a good, weak, natural fertilizer, but its main plus is the organic matter. Also note that native soils are often composed of material that is very rich in some chemicals that are "fertilizers," and thus does not need any more.

Fertilizing at planting: Current research says this is a bad idea. It promotes growth of leaves when the roots ought to be the most active. The new leaves can sap the old roots. At this time, it is just best to let the plant get used to the new home for a start.

Your project sounds like a great bit of fun, I think it will be a startlingly enjoyable sight. Have you thought of Laburnum as well?
(Kenton) James

One of the things I heard on a gardening show I like and trust said that when planting new things to be sure you not only loosen the soil around your plant roots, but also around the hole you dig. Like JamesCO said you can end up with no place for roots to go. What they suggested was to top dress after planting rather than putting it directly into the hole, if you are going to add anything at all.

The more good stuff you can get into your soil, the better. I can't do a compost pile anymore, so I just bury my fresh "compost materials" around in the garden. Everything you would ordinarily put into a compost pile. I've never had smell or fly problems. In the winter I mulch with leaves and in the spring I rake off some and dig some in as I plant or prune or just do general spring garden cleanup.

My soil was pure sand when I started and now it's thick, dark and rich--and full of earthworms. So now when I plant something I don't worry about amending the soil unless I'm in a completely new area. I started gardening in this yard in 2000 and I felt like the soil would never change, but all it once it was gorgeous!! It's definitely worth the work.

I think that direct addition of raw composts has some major merits- the worms! They eat and distribute it naturally and aerate. When they cast is out, it is mixed with the inorganic soil so finely- the birth of black gold. A person would simply be mindful to bury it deeply enough and not to allow concentrations too near roots.
When I can I will post a picture I have comparing kitchen-scrap-vermicompost soil to native (1% organic matter dry clay) soil.
K. James

Black gold is right!! I've always been careful to bury it deeply, except egg shells. I crumple them and spread them around on top so that the birds can get them, too.

If you have access to fresh fish, you can bury all that you don't eat (while it's still raw) and that's the only meat that you can do that with. I used to operate a commercial fishing boat and had the most beautiful vegetable garden I've ever seen because I used the "leftover" pieces. It was the only fertilizer I ever used. People used to come up to my door to ask what I did to my garden. You should have seen their faces when I told them what I was burying out there. Real Kodak moments.

Well, here in the high desert our sandy soil has NO worms. And adding Composted horse poo doesn't give it worms!!! *LOL* I have 2 tiny beds off the front porch that I put some of my Pomona Potted mix into and there are a few worms happily doing their thing in there. I REALLY want to get worms and their castings, but that might be down the road a bit.

Kenton (?),
"so that there is a gradual change from native to amended soils. " This is exactly what I do!!!! I loosen the sandy soil in a much larger hole than I need for the root ball, mix about 1/3 composted manure, push it to the edges, mix about 1/2 compost to native sand for the center "hill" (right where I'm laying the roots), and then cover with the 1/3 compost mixture. Then I fork the unamended soil around it a bit, just to loosen it up and make it friendly for the (hopefully) expanding roots!!! The one great thing about sandy soil, is excellent drainage!!!! We have pockets of clay here and there, but so far if I run into one, I mix some of the sandy soil from 10' away in along with the compost and yippee! Good soil!

The weather was coldish and windy today, so I didn't get my Wisteria (or my strawberries or snowpeas) in but I scored on some garden labels and tiny seed planters and soil test kits all marked down from $5 or so to 25 cents each!!!!

Tomorro's another day. HmmmMMMmmmm...I smell good things coming from the kitchen. Tammy's making beef and cheese enchaladas with green sauce. Gotta go!
Terese

Gardengram, I found out how olfactory-talented our local skunks are when I didn't bury my eggshells at least 8" ! It looks like my entire pond's worth of fish will be going where you describe after last winter. Do your birds leave their fertilizer in return for the shells?

Terese;
Sand is a blessing for drainage and mixing ease. If you can intriduce worms like you have, you're in the money. They will reproduce to match the organic matter.

I must admit to a maniacal amendment recipe in my high-desert clay:
Dig & pile aside one foot to 6" of soil. Dig down one more foot (or to reach the 2' mark) and get rid of it. Fork the bottom and sides, adding course matter and raw compost. Fill with finer composts and that set-aside soil simultaneously, mix well, adding enough organic matter to replace a whole foot of dirt and let stand for a few weeks. Serve cool with mulch and enjoy.

Enjoy las enchiladas,
Kenton "Esceletón"

Kenton,
I do have bird fertilizer, but so far have not found it useful. LOL. Our yard is so full of birds all the time because I spend half my available funds feeding them! Not really, but they have plenty to dine from here. It seems we have more birds than ever this year. The other day I peeked out at one of the tube feeders and every perch had a bird on it. I love that. I also put out dog fur when I brush my dog. Do that all spring and into summer. Guess I better get on that.

We don't have skunks, but we do have raccoons and possum and wild bunnies. And several neighborhood cats that are making me nuts trying to get our birds. I am trying to find a large quantity of those red pepper granules that you can spread around to deter critters--the powdered stuff has to be replaced after every rain--but so far haven't found the big bags anyplace. This is a really big yard and those little bottles of stuff just won't cut it.

The first year I was making a garden in this sandy soil my son-in-law tilled in compost and topsoil. Then I couldn't till any more without destroying the many perennials I had planted the first year. So as I've added each plant I've added topsoil and/or potting soil and compost to each hole, large or small. All that you guys are doing sounds too much like real work to me. I'm a lazy gardener, I guess.

No, Just a realistic one.

Yeah, I like that word better.

Sadly....like that old joke that goes, "What's worse than a hopeless romantic? A HopeFUL romantic". It's true. My name is Terese, and *gulp* I'm a HOPE-fiend. I look across my front yard that the TFH (Tenant From Hell) cleared 4 or so years ago, and I see the terraced rock gardens, the cactus mounds and gulleys, a couple of shade trees, a tiny patch of grass, the wisteria 20' tall and in flower, star jasmine climbing up the trellises near the porch....I do! I see it all, if only in my mind. And I dig and dig, and my partner digs and shovels, and we haul manure and rocks, and she grumbles, and I ache...But....I hope....someday...*sigh*

And as for birds!!! We rescue birds. We have 9. Their cage bottoms consisting of newspaper, poop, bits of chewed wood and cardboard, birdy bread, veggies, fruits and pellets...all go into the compost pile. I don't keep up with it like I should. I mostly just run it over with the mower/mulcher to make it smaller, then shovel horse poo on top so the wind doesn't blow it away. I toss weeds and whatever I pull from the garden beds on the pile and water it once in a while, and just let nature take it's course. I figure it'll be compost eventually.....

Kenton, your method is very similar to mine, except I don't use so much raw (hot) compost. We get composted manure by the truckload from a nearby ranch. I am going to make a smallish coldframe on a PVC and 1"X2" frame covered with builder's plastic above last season's broccoli bed. It will be much simpler and easier on the back to use the old bed...shovel it out for 2' and fill all but the top 6" with HOT poo, then cover with soil and hopefully I'll be able to get some seeds going a lil early.....I cleared a bit of space in a small window ledge in the kitchen today, enough for a 72 pellet tray...
Still, hopin'!
Terese
Here's remembering last harvest...

Fancy. I've friend who moved into her house (a fixer-upper cerca 1902) in 2001 after most remodelling was done. Now, it is fence-to-fence flowers; cottage garden style. I am going over there today to take some pictures, I can D-mail some to you. The before/after shots she has are incredible. My East Garden is much the sme way; July 04: Grass. July 05: Everything but grass.
K. James

That's so rewarding, Kenton. You must really have a green thumb. Can you post pictures?

Always love to see before n after pics....it feeds my dreams~!! *L*

Working on it...
I have some of mine, but need ot borrow ones of hers-they are dramatic (house and garden); they insired me.
Cheers,
K. James