wanted: 2 bradford pear trees

I never thought a simple question would start such controversy. I found the most beautiful bradford pear to plant, so I'm planting it. thanks, julie

Good for you!! I'm sure you'll enjoy it, & it's nice to hear that you went with what you wanted versus all the rancor.

Perhaps it's a problem in some areas but not here. The arborist who recommended it had nothing to gain since he doesn't sell trees and it is the largest arborist in our state. The nursery who we bought the tree from has been in town for over 40 years.

Why not call your local cooperative extension agent, in the county in which you live, and listen to what they have to say.

OK, time out --

First, for Breezy: there was no rancor present. Where did that idea come from? She asked about Bradfords and several of us tried to help her. We gave her good advice, followed by alternative suggestions and even some lame attempts at humor to make the point.

Second, for Pirl: listen to ol' Ralph about vegetables and petunias, not trees. You don't hire a podiatrist for heart surgery. He's a radio personality who grows tomatoes, not an arborist or scientist, and some of us here have more than his 40 years of experience anyway.

Finally, a few of you will still plant the durned things if you want to. But at least do so knowing what you're getting into. Don't place them where you can't afford to have them fall apart and crash onto your car or roof, and remove them immediately if they start to reproduce.

One more Bradford in a neighborhood full of them probably will not matter much as far as the invasive issue, except by setting a bad example. (Envision: "Our neighbor planted a Bradford and she's on a tree forum so she must know what she's doing, just like Ralph Snodsmith.") But they're still horrible trees that will break up in a few years. I can see maybe keeping one you already have, but why would anybody buy one knowing that?

I also find it dissapointing that a few people on this forum still seem clueless (or care less) about invasive species issues. I find it even harder to believe that Ralph Snodsmith is unaware of the notorious problems with Bradford. Maybe his book was written back in the 1980s?

Guy S.

Opinions don't matter at all unless you've HAD Bradford pear and HATED it. I wish to high heavens someone would have told me they STINK. Why on earth would you want to plant one of these, knowing how much trouble it's going to be? Forget it. There are SO many good trees. Don't plant the bad ones.

--Joulz
A Tree Grower's Diary
http://www.coffeedrome.com/jtree2c.html

Point is some people on here have liked having them in their yard - I think this goes back to personal garden taste rather then invasives. If you want to know about a tree watch one in your area for a year - go up and smell it and watch it. I look at local parks for the trees I am really wanting to know about. Pines are native here but with all the clean up and sap I would never plant one or keep one, why it boils down to what I want and like to see in my garden.

Like a lot of plants this is one you love or hate - and both sides have good points.


And no I do not have room for a pear tree that does not give me fruit.

Guy S. - Mr. Snodsmith was born and raised in Mount Vernon, IL and raises much more than tomatoes. He was the Director of the Queens Botanical Gardens for many years and has been given awards by many plant and tree boards. I find it so insulting for you to belittle a man who's so highly thought of that he was the Gardening Editor for Good Morning America for years. He receives more mail each week than any other radio personality on WOR Radio.

His book is at my side: it was written in 2001.

I'll send your comments to him but he is such a gentleman I'm sure he will respond as such.

Sounds like you know him well -- I've heard him a couple of times when I caught him on my car radio, and he was talking flowers and veggies. Since you claim his book says nothing bad about Bradford pear, it seems logical to assume his experience does not extend to trees.

When you see him ask him directly about Bradford. If he's as accomplished as you say, he will be able to give you much better info by now than you found in his book.

Guy S.

Oh my. This is truly a shame.

Pirl, please take a moment to share Mr. Snodsmith’s response to you in this thread. I would sincerely be most interested in his comments.

Perhaps a little history on the Bradford Pear might be of interest- http://www.inmygarden.org/archives/2005/12/callery_pear_tr.html

I’d like to take a moment share comments of Bob Fulcher who wrote an article for the Tennessee Conservationist a few years back regarding an interview he conducted with the former Director of the Federal Plant Introduction Station in Maryland. “I wrote an article for the Tennessee Conservationist magazine about the problem a couple years ago, and interviewed the former director of the federal plant introduction station in Marlyand where the "Bradford" selection was found and cloned. He was quite elderly, told a fascinating story of destroying the "mother" tree, and quite concerned about what they had unleashed upon the landscape. I haven't mastered genetics, but I expect all the selections from Callery pear may contribute to this problem. They shouldn't be planted, they should be removed from the landscape.”

My local extension office here in Illinois is now acknowledging that P. calleryana pear is invasive and has a few leaflets available for anyone interested in learning more.

Several years ago, Bradford pears were removed from the parking lot of the U.S. National Arboretum as a direct result of horticultural experts.

Simply stated, Pyrus calleryana pear, and every single cultivar currently on the market, is invasive. Long before it was identified as being invasive, all the telltale warning signs were present. This plant has irrefutably been documented as having the ability of arresting natural ecological processes. This plant has exhibited the ability of colonizing new areas far from where it is planted.

Just because we can not see the offspring, does not mean they do not exist. Truly a difficult concept to grasp. It was for me so I can certainly appreciate the comments regarding same shared here.

I disagree with Guy on something; I think one more Bradford does make a difference. One thing is for sure, we currently have lists of plants that are illegal to grow, sell, or distribute and those lists are growing. And that scares me as it brings us that much closer to even more government regulation.

Mitch, you are correct. I liked having them in my yard very much. Knowing what we now know, is it responsible to continue allowing nurseries to keep pumping out cultivars at such an unprecedented rate? Mitch, with so many viable alternatives out there that do not wreak havoc in the environment... would you buy one to plant on any property you own if you had the room? Would you give one as a housewarming gift to a friend or relative? You don't need to answer either of those questions. They were rhetorical.

I think the major aspects of P. calleryana have been addressed here. Ultimately, the property owner is responsible for what he/she plants and that's as it should be. This is coming down to the classic emotion v. logic therefore there really isn't any need to go further.

Look at my introductory post on this thread. As far as I know, there were no bradford pears that fell and damaged property. The pines, pecans, and oaks are the culprits here. The pears I noticed in front of houses and subdivisions were still standing after Katrina, and they even bloomed about four weeks after Katrina hit. Talk about a sight for sore eyes. Everything here was brown from the salt spray, even the pine trees! They are still brown, but you can see the little green needles emerging among the brown ones. Remember, one man's junk is another's treasure. Love to all from Katrina Land! Julie

E - I dont think you are getting it... I think Guy got it. If I did not want fruit I would plant them but I am more into having fruit. I do have an old Mimosa also balckballed by some people who have seen them spread to the wild but with this tree I have yet to see anything in the wild and there are several trees in my area. I just think that there are some areas these trees would do better in then others. Just maybe this is a good tree for some people in some areas. I have seen these trees in my area well over 10 years old with no issues from what I can tell. They dont break in the bad wind storms we hae here and must be well over 30 foot tall. I think it is more about where you live what you need to plant then some nation wide black list. Every state does have a black list just for this type of thing, if it is a problem in your area just help your state add this plant to your states list.

First, they are said to break at 15-20 years, so the presence of a still standing 10 year old tree doesn't mean much to me. Second, how can anyone look around, and, seeing no evidence of invasiveness in your area, declare it a nonproblem? You can't do that any more than I can look outside and say that it's going to rain the day after tomorrow. I don't see any P. calleryana around either, but people a lot smarter than I am tell me that this tree is a problem, so I listen.

Well, it's a new day, I've calmed down, and I need to eat some words. I suppose if I had half a brain I'd just edit them out so they couldn't be quoted out of context later, but it seems more honest just to apologize.

My sarcasm directed at Mr. Snodsmith was not appropriate. It was based upon frustration and upon a severely superficial exposure to his radio show, and triggered by Pirl's assertion that the book did not cover the notorious problems associated with callery pears. In fairness to him, much less was known about the pear's invasive tendencies back in 2001 when his book reportedly was published (end even less in 1999-2000, when the text probably was written). I can't account for his omission of its other problems, but I haven't seen the book -- perhaps he did not have room to mention problems associated with any of the plants he covered.

EQ is our resident exotics conscience, and she is firm in her belief that we should be responsible in our actions. If she errs on the side of caution, I find this far preferable to erring on the side of ignorance of the issues. I am reminded here of something that Pirl once said in a previous thread:

Hey Guy, I do the same thing. I generally edit for spelling or something I forgot rather than to "take something back" that I wrote. I favor the approach you took, it's good and honorable.

Regarding Mr. Snodsmith, it is my understanding he published another book just recently and it is my understanding he conscientiously chose to remove invasive species from it. I haven't seen either of his last books so am not in a position to comment.

Thanks for sharing that thread Guy. I'd found it a while ago and chose to refrain from posting however I whole heartedly support Pirl's comments. Our government is going to react to the repeated introduction of both flora and fauna that are documented as being invasive, it's only a matter of time. Most unfortunately, I suspect the reaction we will see is being foreshadowed in that thread from last summer. I'm afraid we're all in for some hard times as the pendulum swings to the far right for a while until some semblance of balance can be restored. It's all about Public Health. Just because we can't see the negative impact some on Public Health that a small percentage of plants create, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Best wishes to you all in your gardens. Spring is almost here and we can all go outside and play in the dirt very soon.

Thank you, Guy, for the retraction regarding your opinion of Ralph Snodsmith. I thought you might be interested in knowing that under "About the Author", on page 414, it is mentioned that he writes a monthly column for "Trees" magazine.

I am not here to defend either Ralph or any variety of the Bradford Pear although it did bother me to hear a diatribe against a man who is so respected by his peers, his radio and television fans and Cornell Cooperative Extension service, Planting Fields Arboretum, the Queens and Bronx Botanical Gardens and many others.

I would suggest, as I have before, that each of us contact our local county agent and ask which varieties present a problem for the environment.

Perhaps none of you who have posted have not heard of the Asian Longhorned Beetle but we have, thanks to Ralph. It doesn't mean we all shouldn't be concerned. It arrived in New Jersey in warehouse crating from China. The destruction of blocks of trees in Amityville, Long Island and Cartaret, New Jersey was due to these pests. Now it has spread to California. That's part of our responsibility to the environment.

We have destroyed all of our lythrum plants and have encouraged neighbors to do the same but with a smile, not a rant and it's worked. I will keep the 'Aristocrat' until Ralph advises me to remove it.

As soon as Ralph responds I will post his reply if given permission, as I have requested of him. Being a lecturer, teacher, writer, etc. I can't say when he can respond.

Thank you, all, for your concern.

I'd like to think that I "get it," and would never plant a Bradford Pear. Of course, this decision is made easier since they're not hardy this far north. I do find it a bit odd that so many well trained and educated municipal arborists continue to select this plant for their cities. Do they not get it, or do they know something that perhaps we don't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't a cultivar of P. calleryana selected as 2005 tree of the year by the Society of Municipal Arborists? Finally, it would be nice if our resident municipal tree expert would take a break from his anagrams and share his thoughts and wisdom on this topic.

OK, now it's my turn to eat crow. I didn't ralize that VV had contributed early on in this thread before hitting send. Sorry.

Maackia, your point about weedy trees like this remaining on the white lists is a very good one. Many of these organizations, and even extension offices, are not at the forefront of such issues and react only after the horses have stampeded out of the barn. Plants that appear on noxious weed lists invariably do so only after it is much to late to stop them, and books that publish such information are always behind the curve due to publication lag time.

In the case of Bradford pear, we have nearly reached the point of no return in some areas, yet we might never reach it in others. I have seen what it can do in the South and it scares me, but it might not be able to succeed so well in far northern climates. Still, is it wise to gamble on it, given that it's such an inferior plant anyway?

Equil, I hope you're right that Ralph Snodsmith now has retracted his endorsement of invasive trees like callery pears. That elevates him considerably in my view. Unfortunately, older books are still out there, and still being read and accepted without questioning.

If you really want to be out front on this, contact some of the experts in your state's native plant society or natural heritage management program. Seek info from one place, then from another, until you have a reliable composite of data.

Guy S.

Here's a typical pic of a Bradford Pear someone (I regret I forget who! - anyone recognise it??) posted on Gardenweb about a year ago. With just a little bit of snow.

Resin

Guy,
I am interested in your source for this quote:

"invasive exotics cost our country tens of millions of dollars annually"

I have lived here nearly 20 years and have watched Bradford pears go through unbelievable ice storms and hurricane winds, and I've seen no visible damage to trees that were already mature when I first saw them, therefore I was very surprised to read here that they may have problems. I don't have any in my yard and don't plan to plant any due to lack of space.

Thanks.
Diane

This message was edited Feb 20, 2006 6:15 PM

Oh for heaven's sake - we've lived here for 10 years - & through unbelievably heavy snow & ice storms - our large Bradford Pear hasn't broken even one branch.

Talk about alarmist - not to mention a bit out of place. You're in the UK, aren't you?. You can't exactly be spouting about what's typical for us here in the U.S. now can you?

Hey Guy, I don't know that Snodsmith ever endorsed invasive species per se. I've never listened to his radio program and I've never read any of his publications. I read comments regarding his most recently published book in which it was noted that he conscientiously chose to remove invasive species from his publication which appears to be consistent with what Pirl shared about him in that other thread in which invasive species of fauna were being discussed. I have no personal knowledge of whether he did or not and I'm not a first name basis with him so I'm not in a position to contact him to ask. I've got way too many professional publications backed up here that I need to read so I'll wait for somebody who owns his last book and has read it to comment.

Hey Diane, Guy misquoted the figure. It's actually in the billions. Yup, tens of billions of American tax payer dollars. He accidentaly typed an M instead of a B because I know for a fact Guy is all too familiar with the cost. Start here with Cornell's Pimental report for a good starting point source-
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Jan99/species_costs.html
Back in 1999, our costs were tens of billions of dollars and that figure escalated to over 160 or 170 billion a few years ago and I suspect that when the new figures are available next year some time that we will top the 180 billion dollar figure annually if not be at or in excess of 200 billion dollars. It's no secret, I'm an environmentalist but... humans first which is why I tend to focus on species that are injurious to Public Health. If we could just all pull together to eliminate even 10 of the most invasive species, I can't begin to imagine the money that would be freed up for areas so desperately in need of funding such as programming for our elderly and HeadStart to name but two areas.

Hey Resin, great photo. I'm becoming desensitized to those types of images because I live in the midwest and the local newspapers print photos like that quite frequently in the spring and fall and they're usually... Bradford Pears. There are actual statistics out there provided by Insurance companies listing that tree as a major problem child costing millions of dollars in damage annually. Any one know where to get those statistics? I saw a link once but can't for the life of me remember who shared it or when.

Diana, the quote was mine, derived long ago from data sourced to professional biologists in the Natural Areas Association, the AABGA, and the USDA. The costs accrue due to eradication efforts as well as to economic losses caused directly by the exotic organisms. They affect agriculture, navigation, natural resource management, wildlife habitat, etc. I believe the most recent number I saw computed was between $20-30 million annually, but that was years ago and it could be much more by now.

The problem is even worse down there in the Carolinas than it is here in the Midwest, due to the increased number of species involved there. You might Google your state's native plant society or the Natural Areas Association for info. Please let us know if you find anything more specific.

Breezy, most of us could show you similar photos taken here in the US if we thought it would make a difference to you. Your mind apparently is closed, so it's not worth any more effort to try to change it. Sort of like smoking -- some people live to be 100 and smoke every day, but it's going against the odds. When your pear comes crashing down through your living room window you might remember that there were many friends here who tried to warn you.

You were the one complaining about rancor yesterday, so let's chill, OK? Since when is British snow a different species from American snow? Resin is a highly respected and competent horticulturist and author who was trying to help you see the light, and he did not deserve to be dissed by you. Several of us have been offerring apologies on this frustrating thread, and I believe it's your turn tonight.

Guy S.

Edit: Well, I just stepped on Equil again! No, I hadn't kept up with the cost, but when it first came out a decade or two ago it was already in the many millions so I'm not surprised at the billions figure.

This message was edited Feb 20, 2006 6:49 PM

Read the first few paragraphs of Cornell's Pimental report. The figure was at 138 BILLION dollars back in 1999.

Current sources are claiming the figure in 2003 to have been 167 or 168 Billion dollars but I forgot whether it was 167 or 168. Who knows what we're up to now.

Link to the Pimental report above but there are numerous sources on line with similar figures.

Ralph endorsed the Callery Pear in his latest book: The Tri State Gardener's Guide.

He did reply but since I don't have his permission to copy and paste his reply I will only quote a few words from it:

"If someone doesn't like the plant, it's their privilege not to plant it."

Guy - no worries here about anything crashing through any windows. My flowering pear is way, way, far away from any building, as our all of our trees. I have a 21-acre farm with more than enough property to place trees responsibly away from buildings. Sorry that you won't get to say "I told you so" to me if/when if my pear comes down - lol!!! So far it's withstood one hurricane & 2 tornadoes. Go figure.

Edited to add: Guy - I only apologize for something I'm sorry I said, & I've reread this thread & don't see anything I'm sorry for saying. I'm entitled to my opinion concerning my tree, as well as the right of others to plant it as well. Others disagree & that's also their right. You're the one claiming - from across "the pond" - that we're all going to have our trees falling down & crashing thru windows. Apology accepted.

This message was edited Feb 20, 2006 8:42 PM

May I add my $0.02 of purely personal experience? (That's probably about what it's worth, but it is my own experience based on a good 15 years of observing Bradfords in various settings ;o)

The blooms of Pyrus calleryana 'Bradford' most assuredly do stink. I got my first snootful back in the early 90s when I walked under a large Bradford in full bloom near our downtown offices in Tulsa, OK. I honestly thought someone had vomited and/or a dead animal was in the vicinity - I was all set to go in and call our maintenance crew when I realized it was the tree.

To add injury to insult, I have found I'm highly allergic to them - an allergy shared by many others, I've also found. I live on mega-doses of Benadryl (in addition to my daily Claritin) for the two weeks they're in bloom each spring.

My neighbor had a 10-year old (or so) Bradford planted in between our houses (closer to his than ours.) It was perfectly healthy in appearance, but very rounded form. A severe storm split it in half a couple years ago, and it managed to tear off a corner of his home's roof and guttering as it crashed down. It also poked a nice big branch through his daughter's window.

That was proof enough for me. We had a nice-sized (and narrow shaped) Bradford until last fall. It was sitting right next to where I wanted my new GH sited, so without the least bit of guilt, I asked DH to rev up the chainsaw and down it came. (A large branch managed a glancing blow to my head and shoulders so it won the battle, but lost the war.)

If you are looking for an ornamental, spring-blooming tree, there are many other choices to consider. Serviceberry (Amelanchier) is one that is often recommended as a nice substitute for Bradfords, and I tend to agree (and I've planted two in our yard to make up for the now-missing Bradford.) If you insist on planting a Bradford, it is very sound advice to avoid planting them where they can take out part of anyone's home, fences, or vehicles.

If you already have - and love - a P. calleryana cultivar, and don't notice an offending odor, I would encourage you to keep a close eye on it for signs of weakened limbs or splitting crotch - warning signals that it's time to remove it rather than waiting for nature to do it with a heavy snow or strong winds.

I can add this about the odor, on cool breezy days it is not so bad. But, warm humid days is when it stinks. Also, if you have any offspring from it come up somewhere, be careful. It has very sharp thorns on it that hurt like heck. I had one go halfway into my thumb before.

Hello. I retrack my question in the hopes that we can end this thread. I think for all feature gardeners interested in learning more about the Bradford Pear it seems all angles (including references) have been covered. I have convinced my husband to remove 2 of the 4 we have. And I'll just have to gently nudge him into removing the other 2.

Thanks for the help.

OK, I quit before I lose my patience again and insult someone else. That's what happens when I do these threads at night when I'm tired, so please no one take offense.

Breezy, I'm truly glad it's not near your house and I do wish you luck with it. There was no "I told you so" intended, merely an attempt to warn you. And I'm not "across the pond", although Resin is -- so I guess you go figure.

Pirl, it's unfortunate that your friend is still recommending it. I trust you shared this entire thread with him, and not just selected quotes. If not, please do so, and hopefully he will learn from it and reconsider. He sounds like a reasonable enough man on his show.

Equil, I don't doubt your statistics. I was quoting from distant memory just to make a point. I was especially pleased to hear that the National Arboretum has culled their plants, and I hope they will spread the word more effectively than we've apparently been able to do here.

Thanks, Terry, for chiming in, but I think we've done all we can here already. I agree with Equil that we've wasted enough time on this worthless tree. See y'all somewhere else.

Guy S.

Aimee, we were typing at the same time --
Good for you! ;-)

Guy S.

Star: Don't forsake me yet. I added a new thread in the tree section, looking for great varieties. Anyone meeting me over there...shhhhhhhhh, no more mention of the Bradford. I've heard all I can handle. =)

I know I'm not a tree smart person, so when I come to ask the tree folks whats what in the tree world, I do thank them for sharing all their smarts, and saving me from doing something as stupid as putting so much of my time, money and effort into something thats gonna be harmful, to me, my oh so humble home, my children, and the environment I wish to leave to my great grand childrens children. When someone says do your homework, this plant may be a problem, we need to think about all the ways that it could harm the very things we love. We need to look beyond our noses and quite a ways down the path before we may see that a seed from a nasty stuck to our shoes or a bird made a deposit, and the seed made it to a cozy undisturbed spot in the woods that all the plants and critters count on all year every year to survive, and now it will grow big and stronge and wipe out everything mother nature worked so hard on to make perfect, now...was that awful plant worth it? Its not about who is rite and who is wrong, its about who was informed and who was listening, and how can we undo what was done. Thank you all who care so much as to put your selves in the firing line to inform the rest of us.

LOL Resin, I adore that picture of the busted up tree in question next to the STOP sign, was it an omen? someone should make a poster or a bilboard.

Dena

RESOLUTION:

Realized that 2 of my Bradfords didn't just need some TLC when I bought them last summer...they already had fireblight! Because they are shooting up more branches from the crotch of the tree, even my husband called it a "stupid" tree when he saw this today...this leads to the weak limbs you had mentioned.

So we are ripping them all out of the ground right now and returning them to the store with the promise of a full refund! Want to thank-you all for your input and opinions, it helped to save my yard and the Texas landscape!


This message was edited Jun 2, 2006 4:36 PM