Heads Up!
Park Seed Company have put their fragrant corkscrew vines on sale for $4.98 each.
Link to their sale email page:
http://images.parkseed01.com/parksgardens/pem000070/pem000070.html
Diana
Fragrant Corkscrew vine
I ordered one at 40% off on May 30. It said "seedling" so I was expecting a very small plant. Instead I got a very healthy plant with 4 or 5 stems that were each at least 6" long and a strong root system. It is growing like gangbusters now. I don't know what their current stock looks like but I was very pleased with the plant they sent me.
Oh, thank you! Believe it or not just last night I was at Logee's website with 2 in my basket but logged off before purchasing anything...I would have ended up paying more than 3 times as much for these. Thanks again!
I got one earlier this year at a nursery for only $3.99, I now wish I had gotten another one or two. Mine has just taken off, and has been flowering like crazy.
Momcat,
Is yours fragrant because the picture looks more like Phaseolus than Vigna caracalla.
Jan...
Jan, I think you're right. It was marked as Vigna caracalla, but the flowers definitely look more like the Phaseolus. Thanks for correcting that, if there are seeds, I want them marked correctly!
Deb
Yipee!!!!!! I have some popping up thru the soil..Now if they would just keeping growing and growing and growing.....I got my seeds from Seed Savers...so I know these are Vigna caracalla...
Do you guys fertilize these vines? What kind of fert do you use?
I have asked the people in admin to clarify which is the Vigna Caracalla. The Snail vine or the Corkscrew vine. I have both and I really would like to get them straight before the end of the season because I am hoping to collect seeds from them.
Jeanette
This message was edited Jul 6, 2005 9:07 PM
Vigna is Corkscrew vine
Phaseolus is Snail vine
Plant in picture is not corkscrew vine. I have more than I want of the ones in the picture. ((Snail vine)) so sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This message was edited Jul 9, 2005 12:08 PM
That had already been established if the above posts
This message was edited Jul 7, 2005 4:19 PM
Is there a way to tell the difference between the two vines before they bloom? I bought a Vigna caracalla this year. It hasn't bloomed yet and since there seems to be so much confusion between the two I am wondering if I might have been sent the Phaseolus.. That wouldn't really be a problem, they are both beautiful.
NoH20-
I've put both plants side by side before, and it can be very hard to tell the difference in foliage, even if you are staring right at them. I think that is why they are so often confused...
The only thing I can say is the corkscrew leaves are a TINY bit more pointed at the end, and the center vein is symmetrical-it runs right exactly down the middle, whereas the phaseolus are not as symmetrical-the vein is not in the center, and to one side of the vein, the leaf is more "bulged out looking" than the other side...
Am I making any sense? lol...
...maybe I should just take a picture...
Also, (at least on mine) the corkscrew are not as healthy and green as the phaseolus...they seem to yellow easily, whereas the phaseolus are always green. The phaseolus is a much faster growing vine with tons of foliage, and the corkscrew has always been stingy.
-T
Thanks, I will examine mine and see if I can tell. If not I will try to get a decent picture.
I just went out and picked a few leaves off both caracallas...
Here is a photo...as you can see, VERY little difference...the corkscrew are both on the left, and the snails are on the right...
I might add that there was a tiny bit of purple tint on the petiole of the snail vine(which makes sense because that vine has got the purple pigment in it, to make the purple blooms). The corkscrew petioles were simply yellow/green.
Also, looks like the corkscrew are not as symmetrical as I had remembered, but still maybe a tiny bit more than the snail?
Oh well...maybe you'll just have to wait for a bloom...
According to Hortus 3rd and the RHS, Phaseolus caracalla is an invalid name. It is a synonym for vigna caracalla and when you look up Phaseolus caracalla, you get a description of the corkscrew vine(the fragrant one) in most books. It is only on the internet that phaseolus is used for the snail(purple, non-fragrant) vine.
Then how do they explain the difference in the blooms and fragrance and seed size and shape.
I would never consider them to be the same plant. Kissing cousins maybe.
Susie-
yes, my brand new American Horticultural society A-Z encyclopedia doesn't have them both listed in there, either...
Most references either confuse the two, or don't even acknowlege them as two different species.
But, since no one seems to officially acknowledge the snail vine, and we all know it exists, I guess a name just had to be made up out of necessity! lol...
Here on Dave's is the only place I've seen it correctly identified as two separate species with two different names...
Phaseolus pertains to many species in the bean family, and caracalla links it to the similarity to the vigna(which is ONLY the foliage, lol), so 'Phaseolus caracalla' sounded good to me, so I use it...Personally, I've also seen it called phaseolus gigantea, and actually prefer that instead of phaseolus caracalla, but no one asked me, lol...I think the 'caracalla' part, continues to fuel the confusion...and, that it having a completely different name, would help separate it as a completely different plant.
Phaseolus coccinea is a red flowered bean/legume. Phaseolus(bean), and coccinea(red)= red flowered bean. What is the latin name for purple?? Maybe we should start calling it "Phaseolus +(whatever the latin name for 'purple' is...), lol...
For MANY, many years datura and brugmansia were classed as the same thing, even though they are different. It took the "official" people a LONG time to separate them into two different species within the same genus, and I STILL see them listed incorrectly on many online nursery sites, and such...
I think the whole "snail vine vs. corkscrew vine" thingy, is a very similar situation.
Sorry to ramble...I just think it is funny when "real gardeners" know more about a particular plant than the "professionals"...and frustrating to see something so confused when they are CLEARLY different vines...
MANY more differences than similarities.
:)
-T
Perhaps we should rename it Phaseolus confusiosus. LOL
Seedpicker, do the corkscrew vine leaves look like they have slightly sharper angles where they curve (the snail leaves look more gently rounded) or am I just grasping at straws here?
Seedpicker, I think you need to change your name to Leafpicker. LOL I do not see any difference in your leaves and yes NoH20 you are seeing things.
I asked admin and I don't think anyone answered me. And no one answered me about fertilizing them???
Jeanette
This is my first one and I am just flying by the seat of my pants so I can't help you out, Jeanette.
NoH20-yes, I agree, and that is what I was trying to describe with one side of the leaf bulging more on one side of the vein...just don't know how quite to describe it...lol...
Also, many times the corkscrew's secondary veins join the main leaf vein at the same place, whereas the snail leaves are frequently ...um what is the right word....they sort of meet the vein, but at different places, alternately on either side of the vein...
Anyway, it is not hard and fast observation, because just when I thought it was a determining characteristic, I found a corkscrew leaf that had alternating veins, too...lol...
There are very slight differences, but would need to be more educated in botanical terms to describe it better...Also much easier to determine when you can see two large plants in person...But, still hard because the foliage is very similar...
Jnette-The corkscrew vine is vigna caracalla. There has never been debate about it's name...
However, The other plant, we are just all(here at Dave's) agreeing to call it Phaseolus Caracalla for the time being...the common name for it is Snail vine. That name has not been "officially recognized" as I previously stated...
It is best to fertilize the corkscrew, but if you fertilize the snail vine, they will grow large enough to eat your house, lol...and it may cause it to spend the extra energy on foliage, instead of blooms(kinda like morning glories. If you fertilize morning glories they don't bloom as well).
The snail grow much, much more agressively than the corkscrew. As you watch your seedlings, you will notice the snail growing much more quickly than the corkscrews...
Corkscrews need much less water than the snails, and if overwatered, they will yellow easily, (or even rot and die, which I've accidentally done more than once..). This happens because the nutrients in the soil are literally washed away from the roots by all that water...you can green them back up again with some fertilizer, with some epsom salts added into it...I even put some alfalfa pellets over the soil of mine this year, and it has really helped perk them up and keep them greener...
Here are the only similarities that I can see between the two:
1.The both form tubers...
2. The foliage is almost identical
3. both require less water than most other vines
Here are the MANY differences:
Snail vine(phaseolus caracalla)
1. Aggressive growth to 50 feet!
2. Blooms nonstop (from mid-spring until frost)
3. Blooms are a solid pale purple.
4. Blooms shape is smaller, and curiously shaped, but not coiled (and long like a twisted maccaroni noodle)
5. Blooms are NOT fragrant
6. Vine is more cold tolerant and can even take a few mild frosts.
7. Vine can take a lot more water without rotting the tuber...
8. No fertilizer necessary, in fact, flowers best if you don't
9. Tough plant and easy. Rewards you with lots of flowers all summer long, with little effort.
Corkscrew flower(Vigna caracalla)
1. Less agressive growth, in fact can be stingy with foliage
2. Blooms primarily only at the end of the season(in Fall)
3. Blooms are creamy colored with violet markings swirled in...(like sangria swirled in a margarita, lol...)
4. Blooms are elongated curled coils like twisted maccaroni noodles. They can be several inches long to about 6 inches, depending upon the health, age, and vigor of the individual plant.
5. Blooms are extremely fragrant and are reminiscent of strong jasmine.
6. Vine is much less cold tolerant.
7. Vine is much less tolerant to being overwatered. (I give mine zero supplemental watering, especially in winter)
8. Best if fertilized and given periodic doses of epsom salts, superthrive, and/or even alfalfa tea...
9. Vine is fussy, stingy and yellows easily. Much more care is required with this vine, but although it requires a lot more care and keeps you in suspense all season, the grand finale is worth the wait...
-T
Thank you for taking the time to give us all that fantastically detailed information. (I particularly appreciate your description of the color of the corkscrew bloom LOL)
I am glad you warned me about overwatering the corkscrew vine. I have mine in a fairly large pot with a deep bottom attached. I may remove that if I think the vine is going to stay too wet although it may soon be big enough that it will dry out rather quickly in its pot.
I am getting ready to fertilize with some alfalfa tea.....how much epsom salts do you add?
Thanks again, your experience is a tremendous help.
It can vary, but I usually sprinkle a cup of it on top of the soil over the base of an outdoor plant, and on indoor plants, or potted plants, I think it is something like three tablespoons per gallon...
If you REALLY want to "jack it up", you can even add a few drops of superthrive to the "brew"...
-T
I know what I'm doing wrong with the vigna caracalla AND the snail vines! Thanks Seedpicker!
you are welcome, Susie
I just learned the hard way...from "trowel and error", lol...
-T
Well, I examined my vine using your criteria and it looks like I have the corkscrew vine. :^)
There is no purple in the petioles and the leaves are slightly more angled. Although it looks healthy and full I would not call its growth aggressive by any means. And there are no buds or blooms yet so......time will tell.
NoH2o-
(at little embarrassed here...)I just read one of your original posts to see where you'd gotten yours...oops!
...had I known that you'd gotten yours from Parks, in the first place, I'd have been able to solve you ID, immediately!
Parks does sell the true vigna caracalla, corkscrew vine.
Also the Jefferson place at Monticello sells it correctly, too.
I know other companies and nurseries have confused them, but these two have it right...
Sorry! I wish I'd known that sooner, but you should definitely have the corkscrew....
-T
Here's my snail vine.. They are fragant.. got seeds from Parks.. three years ago and now I have two of them. Even got ordered some seeds from Parks last spring. More plants! LOL
Here's recently pix.. Some flowers have knock off from raining.. :o( so far one is still hanging..
There is no need for embarrassment. If you had been able to ID it immediately I might not have gotten all that other valuable information you provided. :^)
Minischnuz-yes, you have the true corkscrew(not snail), and yours is way ahead of mine. My little bud clusters are just now starting to form and are teeny tiny...the suspense nearly kills me ever year, lol...
I got chatty with the Parks rep this year on the phone...(yes I ordered more seeds, even though I already had some plants, just like you) and she said they weren't even offered last year because of a crop failure. I asked what their growing secrets were...she said "who knows! We import them from out of the country" , lol...
NoH2O-thank you for being gracious about it! I still feel kinda stupid! lol... :)
Taylor, I know what you mean by "trowel and error", I think I could write a book on stuff I've learned the hard way!
Lol...yeah, me, too! lol...
-T
I could fill an entire library. I must be a lot older than all of you. LOL
NoH2O
Can you propage either by layering similarly to a clematis or by cuttings? Or is the only method from seed?
A freind has one and it is growing well and wants to share- but we don't want to mess it up.
Heather
Heather, seedpicker is the one to ask. This is my first corkscrew vine and I have only had it since the beginning of June so I am picking seedpicker's brain (seems like there should be a pun in there somewhere) to learn as much as I can. How nice of your friend to share with you; is it a mature vine? I have never seen or smelled one in real life so I am really looking forward to blooms.
I just rooted a cutting in water. I've also rooted them in vermiculite.
Susie, you mean you just put it in water? Anything like Superthrive in it? Jeanette
BTW, my Canna seeds you sent me are about 2 feet tall. Looking good. I have them in a pot on the deck. Do you think they will bloom this summer? What kind of fertilizer do I put on them?
I bought a dwarf Canna at Wallys yesterday. It is in a gallon pot. Should I repot it into something bigger?
Thanks Taylor for the watering info. I was treating my vigna seedlings like Phaseolus and couldn't figure out why they were yellowing and dying. I had the rest sitting outside getting soaked and blown from the storms bands from Dennis. I just went out and got them and repotted them in larger pots with dry potting mix and will let them dry out for awhile inside.
Jan...
Jan, you probably did the right thing. I don't know what to tell you guys, but I have read and re-read everything you all have written about the 2 plants and mine are just the opposite.
I cannot believe that 2 people got them wrong. I got the Snail vine seeds off of ebay, and the Corkscrew vine from Parks. Still has the Parks stake in it.
It has been wet and rainy all spring and it is still raining today so everything is wet. The corkscrew is next to the pond, not in it. the Snail vine is planted in a pot with Lobelia. The Snail vine gets a runner about a foot long and it dies. I have the plant on top of a bird feeder that I used a metal TV tray upside down for the roof. That is what the plant is sitting on. Could the metal have something to do with the runners dying? The rest of the plant is very small and ratty looking. The Lobelia is very healthy.
The Corkscrew vine, as I said is next to the pond and quite wet, a nice full plant with new growth everywhere. Neither is blooming yet.
I do have to say about the Snail vine, I started it from seeds in the house in about March. I t was growing verry rigorously in the house and I kept cutting it back because it was choking out my other plants. Maybe this stunted it. I did re-pot it into the pot with the Lobelia. A mistake?
Another thing, because we have had so much rain, when I water the plants I use peroxide. I think it is one thing that has helped the Corkscrew vine. But I use it on the Snail vine also.
Maybe you guys can tell me what I am doing wrong.
Jeanette