Welcome! This thread will load faster for those of you on dialup. Here is the latest picture of my garden. I have strawberries growing around the outside, lettuce, carrots, potatoes, brocolli on the inside squares. I've just given the bed a top dressing of used coffee grounds, so the dirt looks really black.
Wow, looks great! I'm planting again tomorrow after I search the bed for caterpillars and slugs. Yuk!
I bought the pellet slug killer at Home Depot and put some in a plastic butter dish with a hole cut in it. It is barely visible in the photo, but this has done wonders! It works so much better than broadcasting the pellets over the ground. Now I am trying to get more containers.
No kidding! I would never have thought of giving them a food dish. LOL Did you leave the lid on so the pellets stay dry? And they go after it? Where did you put the hole? Very clever. :-)
Can you show me a close up picture what the pellet slug killer looks like?
~* Robin☺
This message was edited Jun 10, 2005 12:26 PM
I'll take a pic this weekend and post it. Basically, you take a small plastic container with a lid, and cut a hole in one side that will also the slugs in. I made sure mine would be level with the ground for easy access. Then you put some killer in the dish, put the lid on and set out in the garden. It will kill slugs within a 36 inch radius. The lid keeps the killer dry and active for much longer than scattering it. Then you just refill the killer every couple of weeks. Much less messy than beer.
I just don't have enough containers. :( Need to get DH to eat more yogurt...
I am doing the SFG thing; however, I did not follow his planting charts. Just found what the companions were. I also made a long bed with a curve that was 4' wide. I am trellising everything vertically. My tomatillos and my tomatoes are growing like crazy. I had one tomato plant grow about more that 4' in the last five weeks.
Got it, jburesh. I'm going to try that. I use Sluggo and it works fine, but if you're watering a small spot regularly, it's just like rain.
I replanted today and didn't find any slugs or caterpillars. Also, my first poor bedraggled tomato plant has two tomatoes on it! Wow. It seems the more I ignore it, the better it does -- I really thought it was a goner. I've been spraying with a weak seaweed solution and that's really helped a couple of plants that were stressed..
Thanks for the new thread jburesh!
My SFG is in transition, will take new pics next week! Yours looks great. BTW, your SFG with corn inspired me. So soon I will have a similar SFG, about 6'x6', with corn and beans and cukes!
Tamara
Are any of you useing Kelp Foilar spray from Gardens Alive with any good results?
Drew
Yes Drew, I do. But not for slugs.
~* Robin☺
How about for tomatoes? How much would you put in a Quart and a half of solution and when is the best time to apply... I killed some of my peppers last application, I must have mis-mixed it.
Drew
Ok, here is the butter dish slug killer photos! The slug killer in this dish protects a 36" area. My beds are 6' x 6' so I should have two of these dishes in there. I don't and so find a few slugs eating the strawberries at the perimeter of the bed. But the middle of the bed is slug free.
slug dish close up, I took a knife and cut the hole so it ended up being a smiley. :)
What a happy faced dish! Bet it likes eating up them slugs :-)
Drew, I have never heard of kelp killing anything, much less peppers? If this is any help, my catalog say a quart covers 9600 sq ft., which is about 1/3 an acre. Their mix must be pretty strong, it say spray 3 or more times per season. The brand I got says spray every two weeks. Wish I could be more help.... you pictures look nice!
Thanks for the photos, jburesh. I'm definitely trying this idea.
repost from part 1 :)
Here is an update pic of my sfg. First year growing anything seems to be doing well.
Thanks for the comments!
here is the watermellon growing out the side of the box.
JimmyZ,
Are you using the power lines for trellising? It looks like your plants are pretty tall.
Here is a picture of my SQ foot garden.
I posted all my pictures in the Vegetable Gardening forum... I use a cross between this and the Mittleider method..
Drew
follcontrol i like yours looks nicer than mine. I was being simple sense it's my first time in case i killed everything lol
My first time with SQ Foot also. I like your garden. I think it looks fine. I would love to have it in my backyard also.
The Mittleider Method looks incredibly interesting. I am thinking about trying to make some rather large earthboxes (the size of SQ foot garden). It can't be that hard. What about you Drew? I know you are using both EBs and raised beds. What about a combination of the two?
Actually... No EBs so far but may end up with a few for the deck... My beds are either raised or really raised and I have run the sprinkler system into them. One is on drip tape and the other is on white pipe as I have not gotten to converting it yet. The pipe is cheaper by the way...
Drew
I trimmed by tomatoes this week and wrapped twine around them to try and get them to climb a trellis. Anyone have suggestions on the best way to do this? I've heard about taking off suckers, but not sure how to tell the different between those and the fruit bearing branches.
Suckers grow between the main stem and the branch. You can trellis by tying to the bottom of the main stem or by tying to a stake and then trellising upward.
Iff you dig up the Mittleider thread I have good pictures of suckers in there... It is hard to see some of that good growth go but IT MUST BE DONE... especially when your tomatoes are 8 to 12 inches apart!
Drew
Pruning Tomatoes
How to manage your plants for better health and better fruit - by Frank Ferrandino
Undoubtedly, the main reason tomatoes are so widely grown is that home-grown tomatoes taste so much better than their store-bought counterparts. But another reason is the intrinsic vigor and hardiness of this nightshade relative, which almost always guarantees a successful harvest. However, the rapid growth of a healthy tomato plant can also lead to problems.
Early pruning encourages strong stems. Remove all suckers and leaves below the first flower cluster. Let a second stem arise from the node just above the lowest flower cluster. Let a third stem arise from the second node above the first flower cluster.
Like all plants, a tomato is a solar-powered sugar factory. For the first month or so it's in the garden, all of the sugar it produces is directed towards new leaf growth. During this stage, tomato plants grow very rapidly, doubling their size every 12 to 15 days. Eventually, the plants make more sugar than the single growing tip can use, which signals the plant to make new branches and to flower. This usually happens after 10 to 13 leaves have expanded, at which time the plant is 12 to 18 inches tall. In the next few weeks, the entire character of the tomato plant changes. If unsupported, the increasing weight of filling fruit and multiple side branches forces the plant to lie on the ground (see Staking and spacing options). Once the main stem is horizontal, there is an increased tendency to branch. Left to its own devices, a vigorous indeterminate tomato plant can easily cover a 4- by 4-foot area with as many as 10 stems, each 3 to 5 feet long. By season's end, it will be an unsightly, impenetrable, disease-wracked tangle.
Staking and spacing options:
Which method of support you use and how far apart you set tomato plants depends on the number of stems you allow to grow.
Cages work for plants with three to five stems. I use them almost exclusively for determinate tomatoes. Ready-made tomato cages are too little for all but the smallest determinate cultivars. My ideal tomato cage is made from 5-foot-tall galvanized fencing with openings at least 4 inches square, so I can reach in and pick the fruit. A 4-foot section makes a cylinder about 15 inches in diameter. Secure it with baling wire, and stabilize it with two stakes, one of which is at least 6 feet long. Drive the stakes in within a week of planting, but wait to set cages over the plants until the first fruits form, to simplify weeding and pruning. Space caged plants about two-thirds of their final height in all directions.
Use the same type of fencing to make a tomato fence, which works best for plants with one or two stems. To get a good, solid fence, you need a helper. Secure the fencing with 6-foot stakes every 4 feet. Here's how I keep the fence taut. Loop each non-end stake through the bottom rung of the fence, then start to drive it into the ground so its bottom is angled away from the previous stake. Once it's about 4 inches into the ground, bring the stake upright and drive it in the rest of the way. Set single-stemmed plants 18 inches apart, and double-stemmed plants 24 inches apart. If you stagger the planting (successive plants on opposite sides of the fence), you can knock 6 inches off these distances. Erect the fence before you plant your tomatoes.
Stakes work well for plants of one to four stems. I use 1 inch x 1 inch x 6-foot lengths of untreated oak or cedar, sharpened on one end. Drive the stakes 8 to 12 inches into the ground, depending on your soil (deeper for loose, sandy ground). To avoid damaging roots, drive your stakes in within a week of planting. Space staked plants at 18 inches for a single stem, 24 inches for two stems, and 36 inches for three or four stems.
Prune for plant structure and health:
With tomatoes, we want to maximize the efficiency of photosynthesis and minimize the risk of disease. This is best accomplished by ensuring that each leaf has plenty of room and is supported up off the ground. When a tomato plant lies on the ground, or when its growth is extremely dense, many of its leaves are forced into permanent shade, greatly reducing the amount of sugar they produce. There is no free ride in the plant world. If a leaf uses more sugar than it makes, a layer of abscission cells develops between the main stem and the leaf petiole; eventually the leaf yellows and drops. Of course, sloughed-off leaves are replaced by new ones, but time is wasted. Prostrate plants get around to fruit production two or three weeks later than a pruned and staked plant. Most of the fruits they do produce are on the small side, and tend to come in one big, late harvest.
RULE 1 - Get plants off the ground.
RULE 2 - Give plants room.
RULE 3 - Never prune or tie plants when the leaves are wet.
A properly pruned and supported single-stem tomato plant presents all of its leaves to the sun. Most of the sugar produced is directed to the developing fruit, since the only competition is a single growing tip. The result is large fruits that are steadily produced until frost. If more stems are allowed to develop, some of the precious sugar production is diverted from fruit to multiple growing tips. Fruit production, although slowed, never stops. The result is a nearly continuous supply of fruits throughout the season. In general, more stems means more but smaller fruits, which are produced increasingly later in the season. (This is much less applicable to determinate plants, due to their shortened growing season and better-defined fruiting period. Therefore, determinate plants require little pruning.)
Pruning also affects plant health. The leaves of a pruned and supported plant dry off faster, so bacterial and fungal pathogens have less opportunity to spread. Soil is less liable to splash up onto staked plants. The bottom line: Upright plants have fewer problems with leaf spots and fruit rots because their leaves stay drier and free from pathogen-laden soil.
The way you choose to train and prune your tomato plants will affect how you space your plants, as well as the best method of support . There's no one right way to do it. Instead there are a few good patterns to follow.
Side stems affect plant vigor
As a tomato grows, side shoots, or suckers, form in the crotches, or axils, between the leaves and the main stem. If left alone, these suckers will grow just like the main stem, producing flowers and fruit.
Suckers appear sequentially, from the bottom of the plant up. The farther up on the plant a sucker develops, the weaker it is, because the sugar concentration gets lower as you move up the plant. On the other hand, side stems arising from below the first flower cluster, although stronger, compromise the strength of the main stem. For a multi-stemmed plant, your aim is to have all stems roughly the same size, although the main stem should always be stronger, because it has to feed the entire plant for the next five or six months. Here's how I achieve this.
I keep tomatoes free of side stems below the first fruit cluster. When trained to one vine and left free-standing, tomato plants develop strong main stems. To encourage a strong stem, I remove all suckers and I don't tie plants to their supports until the first flowers appear.
~~
Indeterminate vs. determinate
Indeterminate tomato plants continue to grow, limited only by the length of the season. These plants produce stems, leaves, and fruit as long as they are alive. I remember as a child watching a friend of my grandfather picking 'San Marzano' plum tomatoes from a second-story Brooklyn fire escape, at least 15 feet above his courtyard garden.
Determinate tomato plants have a predetermined number of stems, leaves, and flowers hardwired into their genetic structure. The development of these plants follows a well-defined pattern. First, there is an initial vegetative stage during which all the stems, most of the leaves, and a few fruit are formed. This is followed by a flush of flowering and final leaf expansion. Finally, during the fruit-fill stage, there is no further vegetative growth. As the tomato fruits ripen, the leaves senesce and die. Commercial growers favor this type of tomato because all the fruit can be mechanically harvested at once. The major advantage of planting determinate plants in a home garden is early harvest.
Semi-determinate plants, as the name implies, are somewhere between these two other types. Although there aren't many semi-determinate tomatoes, one of the most popular hybrids, 'Celebrity', falls into this category. I think semi-determinates are best grown to three or four stems.
~~
Determinate tomatoes need no pruning other than removing all suckers below the first flower cluster, because pruning won't affect their fruit size or plant vigor. If you do any pruning at all above the first flower cluster on determinate tomatoes, you'll only be throwing away potential fruit.
Indeterminate tomatoes can have from one to many stems, although four is the most I'd recommend. The fewer the stems, the fewer but larger the fruits, and the less room the plant needs in the garden. For a multi-stemmed plant, let a second stem grow from the first node above the first fruit. Allow a third stem to develop from the second node above the first set fruit, and so forth. Keeping the branching as close to the first fruit as possible means those side stems will be vigorous but will not overpower the main stem.
Where to prune:
In simple pruning, remove the entire sucker at the base. In Missouri pruning, pinch out the tip of the sucker.
Simple vs. Missouri pruning:
There are two ways to deal with a sucker that isn't destined to become a stem. The simplest is to pinch it off entirely; not surprisingly, this is called "simple pruning." This should be done when the sucker is still small and succulent. Grab the base of it between your thumb and index finger and bend it back and forth. The sucker should snap off, producing a small wound, which will heal quickly. Avoid cutting the sucker with a knife or scissors, because the resulting stump can become easily infected. Once a sucker becomes too tough and leathery to snap off, however, you'll have to use a blade. I recommend a retractable razor knife.
In Missouri pruning, you pinch out just the tip of the sucker, letting one or two leaves remain. The advantage is that the plant has more leaf area for photosynthesis and to protect developing fruit from sun-scald. The disadvantage is that new suckers inevitably develop along the side stems, adding to your future pruning chores. Personally, I prefer Missouri pruning, despite its shortcomings. I relish revisiting each Missouri-pruned side stem, repeatedly reinforcing my initial godlike decision to cut or not to cut. Either method works, though, so enjoy your newfound power.
Missouri pruning is necessary when things have gotten out of hand. When you're dealing with large suckers, it's better to pinch off just the tip than to cut off the whole thing close to the main stem. For one thing, if disease hits, it's farther away from the main stem. And for another, removing just the growing tip is less of a shock to the plant than removing a foot or so of side stem.
You'll find that suckers grow very quickly during the hot summer months. I can't count the times I've returned home from a five-day road trip in July to find my formerly well-tended tomatoes covered with foot-long suckers growing in all the wrong directions. This is indeed a situation that tests one's resolve. It helps to know that side stems started this late in the season will always be spindly and produce inferior fruit. You must be heartless and tip them all.
Blest be the tie that doesn't bind:
Once flowering commences, all tomato vines must be tied to their supports. Although vigorous, the plants are also easily damaged, so take care in how you tie them and what you use. Cloth strips work well as long as they're not too old and threadbare. Pieces of panty hose cause the least damage to plants, but they're not biodegradable.Twine should be at least 1/8 inch thick, or else it can cut into the tomato stems. Twine made of natural fibers like jute or sisal will break down sufficiently over winter not to cause problems with tiller tines, as panty hose would.
There are two types of ties. Training ties direct plant growth upwards, and supporting ties keep it there. The top foot of a tomato stem, or leader, is very succulent and easily snapped; it needs to be directed upwards, gently. I wrap a short piece of twine around the middle of the leader, cross it over on itself, and loosely tie it to the support. The resulting figure-eight tie reduces the chance the tender stem will rub against the support and get bruised.
How to Tie:
There are two reasons to tie tomatoes, and there's a different tie for each one. Train the leader to grow upright with a loose, figure-eight tie. To support burgeoning fruit, loop a long tie above a fruit cluster, and tie it to the stake 6 to 10 inches higher. Loop the tie twice around the stake and tie it tightly so the tomatoes don't pull it down with their weight.
Fruit will form along this stem. If left to the devices of the loose training ties, the weight of the fruit will pull the ties down the stake. Eventually, the stem will bend over and crease. Luckily, as the stem matures, it toughens; by the time fruit develops, the stem can tolerate a tighter tie. To support a fruit cluster as it fills and gains weight, I loop a longer piece of twine, 12 to 18 inches, around the stem just above the fruit cluster, creating a sling. Then I gently pull it up to take the weight off the stem. I wrap the twine twice around the stake, and firmly tie it to the stake 6 to 10 inches higher than the point of attachment to the vine. To keep the tie from slipping, I knot it underneath the point where the sling meets the stake.
A final pruning pays off:
Later in the season, about 30 days before the first frost, there is one last pruning chore. The plants must be topped. The fruit that has set must be given every opportunity to mature. To this end, I direct all carbohydrates produced by the plant to the fruit by removing all the growing tips. This, too, can be hard to do. Every gardener is reluctant to admit the season is coming to an end. However, this final pruning can make all the difference between hard, green fruits, hurriedly picked before frost, which later rot in a paper bag, and ripe, home-grown tomatoes in your Thanksgiving salad. Be tough, fight your nurturing instincts, and top those plants.
Frank Ferrandino is an associate scientist in the Department of Plant Pathology and Ecology at the Agricultural Experiment Station in New Haven, Connecticut.
~~~
http://www.taunton.com/finegardening/pages/g00031.asp
Another pic
wow, naturewalker! That helps alot. I'm going to go and check them for suckers. Now that I know what they are! I did remove the bottom sets of leaves, so that seems to have been the right thing to do. My plants are about 2 1/2 feet high right now and in the past have gotten about 4 feet.
Here is a picture of how my "square foot gardening"-inspired garden is coming along.
I have just started picking Juliet tomatos and green peppers.
What a great series of pics! It's nice to see the progression. And that's a good way to post more than one pic in the same post.... did you do that with your digi cam software?
Shannon
I used IrfanView, a free image editing program.
http://www.irfanview.com/
Specifically, I used the "Create contact sheet from selected thumbnails" function from the File menu of the Thumbnail Viewer of IrfanView.
I use IrfanView, too -- it's a great program.
Another freebie that will do collage photos is Picasa2 from Google.
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1412837
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1541948
If I put something like that in my front yard, the home owners association would take me to court.
Do they have some kind of contract requiring everyone to have only grass? I think it's beautiful. I would love to have a front yard garden like that, and am getting started on that direction this year.
Thanks for the photo links, atlr and kaperc - I will definitely be checking those out.
Cheers,
Shannon
They specify everything. Here is an example. I can only have a glass or fiberglass basketball goal. It can not be mounted on the garage. It must be perpindicular to the driveway and it must be portable. If I was going to have my house painted the same color it has to be approved. We also have to use approved brands and colors of paint. We had a new roof put on after a hail storm. The deed restrictions specify which brand of shingles you are allowed to use and which patterns and colors are approved. They also must be at least a 30 year shingle. I must have two trees in my front yard with trunks at least three inches in diameter. They can not be on the same side of the yard. Anything I put in the back yard that extends above the fence must be approved. Sheds or other buildings are not permitted in the back yard. I had a trailer of mulch parked in my driveway behind my house (yet still partially visible from the street) for half a day while I was unloading it. I got a letter from the home owners association two days later stating that I had 24 hours to get it out of my driveway. My neighbor got a letter stating that he needed to pressure wash or replace his fence because it was graying. There is nothing wrong with the fence other than the fact that it had turned gray. Overall, I like the rules. It keeps people from painting their house pink and green or purple and makes them maintain their houses and yards.
Fooldcontrol you are a braver soul than I. I would have been thrown out within a week. Personally I'd take the green and purple houses along with the freedom to do what I wanted with property I paid for. I just don't have the patience for subdivisions. Too many people worrying about what is going on on my side of the fence.
Very interesting, foolcontrol - thanks for telling us about that. I personally had heard that some neighbourhoods have rules (!) about house colours and such, but I had no idea that it could be so detailed. Presumably there are some perceived benefits - ? Otherwise, why go to all the bother.
I would also be thrown out in short order! :-)
Well, I guess your SFG must just have to be in the back yard, eh? But not sticking up over the fence!
Shannon
