Friend or Foe?

Night_Bloom and Critterologist,

thank you both.
I'll take another better look at them tomorrow. (there is a tan one visible in the photo above. It's on the left about mid-photo, on a leaf somewhat in the background, by itself).

I'm sure you're right. Spiderish was my poor description -- the way they are congregated and milling reminded me of a nest of just hatched spiders I think.

Since they're not near my vegetables, I'll hold off and see if someone shows up to have them for lunch. After all, if we kill off all their food, the beneficials aren't going to come round are they??

I've got another question (!). I'll put it in a separate posting.

N_B,

this is a question about telling friend from foe at the larval stage. I'm not so good at it when they're hatched, never mind before! I'm guessing I'm not alone.

I had enough Japanese beetles and cucumber beetles to do real damage to my cucurbits last season. I've put down milky spore for the long run, and intend to get some nematodes soon.
Meantime, whenever I encounter a white curled up larva in the soil I am squishing it. Some have a brown "head" (one end brown); some don't seem to.

Question: are there ++insects (tiger beetle for example??) that have similar larvae that I may be destroying, or am I safe to squish 'em all?
If there's good ones and bad ones, any way to tell the difference?

Good question paani, and I have an answer for you at least about the tiger beetle larva. Tiger beetle larva live in holes in the ground. They wait for prey to come by and grab it. Here is what a tiger beetle larva hole looks like. Normally you wouldn't be able to see the larva head - I went "fishing" for this one and just put it back before I took this picture. The size of the hole can vary greatly depending on how old the larva is. Notice that there isn't any debris associated with this hole - that is typical of tiger beetle larva holes.

Here is what the larva itself looks like. I "fished" this one out of its hole using a blade of grass - you carefully stick a long blade of grass down into the hole. The larva will grasp it and try to move it out. When you see the blade "waving", give it a pull and out comes your larva. The larva should always be put back in the hole tail first.

Notice the "bump" on the back of the larva. That helps it to stay anchored in the hole when it is wrestling with prey. These also are not generally found in the typical "C" shape of most grubs. These are more slender and longer in shape.

One more "good bug" for the night. Not the best picture, but this is a robber fly (family Asilidae). These prey especially on flying insects such as moths. Some are "disguised" to look like bumblebees. Here's a typical robber fly with a moth. These may look intimidating - and people sometimes think the tail is a stinger - but they don't sting and would only bite if handled roughly.

There was a green worm/cat thing on my rose bush yesterday. it was med green with light green horizontal stipes and was making a cocoon(?) out of one of my small rose leaves -- I noticed the white hairy srpider web loooking stuff and then saw him.

I didn't get a pic, and I flicked him off -- my luck it will be a good bug, but it was a rose I just planted this year and is struggling.

Any idea what likes roses?

Heather

Can anyone identify this green critter? He's been on my columbine for several days and I can't detect any damage attributible to him, but I'd like to know for sure whether or not he's one of the "good guys."

This message was edited May 4, 2005 11:55 AM

I just realized that I knew the name of the big ugly brown thing. It's a potato bug. Here is a website about them that is hysterical. Read the FAQs. http://www.potatobugs.com/

I still haven't figured out what the bright red spider is.

Margu, my niece, who always needs money, came up here from Pacifica once to work in my garden. She was planning to stay overnight and work the entire weekend. When she arrived, she grabbed a shovel and started to dig. The very first shovelful of dirt contained a potato bug. She put down the shovel, got in her car, and drove back to Pacifica. She didn't even want to be in the same county as anything that looked like that.

The first time I saw one, I was terrified because I thought it was a huge mutant monster bee. I still get a good scare once in a while when the cats bring one inside and I'm not expecting to see anything that ugly in my kitchen.

Love the Website! It matches my feelings perfectly.

Zuzu, I hate to disappoint your niece, but I'm sure they have them in Pacifica too. They love to surf. Check out the photo:
http://img65.echo.cx/img65/7900/surfinpotato5tf.jpg

Oh, God. That is so hideous!

I'm glad you remembered, margu, because I wouldn't have thought of a Jerusalem cricket. We don't have those critters here in Georgia. We have another burrowing cricket called a mole cricket - but lucky for you I don't have a picture of one of those. They are smaller than your "potato bugs" but no less ugly.


sebeck - I can't be positive, but I think that this might be your little critter. This was a one of a group of baby grasshoppers that sat on these wildflowers for a few days. They never seemed to eat very much, and they will be very small grasshoppers when they are fully grown.

It might also be a small predatory bug (that picture will follow), but the grasshopper is more likely from what I can see. Since it is so small, all by itself, and doesn't seem to be doing any harm, I would tend to let it be for now. I try not to spray my flowers at all, since I don't want to harm any visiting butterflies or bees. That can be tough (my poor Rudbekia took a beating last year), but it does generally make for very inetersting pictures to have all the bugs visiting - hee.

Oh and I forgot to add, margu, that that website was very humerous and entertaining.

sebeck - here's a picture of a predatory bug nymph that has the same coloration and the same general "shape". Hopefully one of these two will look like your critter. From the antenna, I would suspect the grasshopper, but I thought that I would give you both pictures.

Here is a nymph of a predatory bug called an assassin bug. I have seen these nymphs eating small flies as prey. Assassin bugs come in various colors. This one is green as is the adult.

This message was edited May 5, 2005 3:55 AM

Well my trip to the extension agency was very enlightening. We got to see the bugs under the microscope and they were aphids. There were several in different stages. She broke out the bug book and there they were just like the ones on my leaf!

Learn something every day. Although, I could have done without the potato bug visual thank you very much!

-Kim

Re: potato bugs. I dig them up all the time in my garden. Each time is just as horrifying as the last. And if they happen to get into the house, they "click". It's the noise they make. But you can never find them. They just sit around and "click". Horrible creatures. One time I was at my boyfriend's house, he just lives down the street. I felt something crawl across my foot. Yep. A potato bug. I'm convinced this is why my boyfriend is now moving in with me. He thinks he can escape them. Ha.

The web site said that was the actual size...is that true? Why have I never seen them in Florida which has the most disgusting bugs in the world? Of course I have seen flying Palmetto bugs so big they carried navigaters! LOL
Pati

I apologize for not answering you earlier, mysticwill.

Unfortunately I know very little about critters that eat roses. Except for the one wild pink rose that my hubby brought me back from the woods while he was on a turkey hunting trip, I purposely don't grow roses. In our area, they tend to fall in the "high maintenance" category, and most of my flowers must fend for themselves if they're gonna be in my garden for long - heh. And if a critter is eating them, I'm more likely to get out a camera and take a picture of it rather than get out the bug spray - heh again.

Night_Bloom,

thanks for the great pics and explanation for tiger beetles. Those larva are distinctive enough I won't mistake them. Would you say that all the fat white/whitish ones curled in a C shape are on the foe side and fair game for squishing?

my aphid crop is coming along nicely :-( On 8 plants now (up from 3), and plenty of new arrivals (to judge by size). There are brown "mummies" and black husks among them, but still much outnumbered by the red ones.

BTW, I've always wondered about the advice to hose them off the plant. Won't they just carry on and do their damage somewhere else? (or at least continue to reproduce)?

patischell, yes, they do indeed get to be that size, is that horrifiying? Night_Bloom, here's another critter question. A certain caterpillar of which there are hundreds in my garden. I don't have a pic at the moment, but in trying to find them on the internet, I came up with the caterpillar of the Giant Leopard Moth http://www.whatsthiscaterpillar.co.uk/america/hairy.htm (under "bristled" at the bottom of the page). It looks just like this, but it's not one of those, as they are not in California, and I've never seen one of the moths either. The ones I find in my garden are usually in clusters on the ground, or I find them out on the concrete steps, they seem to be everywhere. They are black and very fuzzy, kind of cute! I'd like to know what they become, butterfly or moth, and what they eat? Any ideas? I'll get some pics soon.....

I promise I'll shut up about potato bugs after this. Here is a more serious website with some info:
http://www.sdnhm.org/fieldguide/inverts/sten-fus.html

I was just trying to figure out why they heck they exist in the first place, and I still can't figure it out!

I can never bring myself to kill those Wooly Bear caterpillars because they remind me of little tortoise shell kittens, so I just gather them up and throw them over the fence. My neighbor's garden is a big mess of blackberry vines and ivy anyway, so they can have it.

paani - blasting the plant with a hose is fairly effective for aphids, because most drown and those without wings that don't drown have too hard a time getting back up on the plant. The "mummies" might also protect the wasps inside if they get blasted off, which would be a good thing, because presumably they'd still hatch and get any aphids that escaped the hose treatment.

The only time for me that hosing aphids off didn't work was with my beans, and that was because the aphids had help - carpenter ants. I'd hose the aphids off, but gosh darn it if the ants didn't find some and put them back on the beans - hee - it became a mini war with neither of us backing down. But usually hosing off works quite well and no harm no foul to any other insects in your garden.

Hopefully after a hosing, your lady beetles will show up soon to get any new arrivals. It's kind of cool to see the mummies form though isn't it?

Here's a picture of the carpenter ants "gaurding" their aphids (just before I blasted them off that is - hee).

oops - I forgot to answer paani's grub question...

Some "C" shaped grubs are harmless. The problem is, it's not easy for someone without a stereozoom microscope to tell which are harmful and which are harmless. All "C" shaped larvae are generally plant or organic matter feeders though, so at least you aren't squashing any predators.

And I applaud your patience in sticking out the aphids without using insecticides. The hose should work for you, and now that you've got some mummies, they should only increase. It might still be a bit cool for your lady beetles though - have you seen any lady beetle larvae yet?


margu - my book for caterpillars of western forests is at work - but I'll check it tomorrow and see if you guys have any black fuzzy caterpillars in your area - I seem to remember that there was at least one or two. It is ironic that I have a book for western caterpillars, but not one for eastern caterpillars while you found a site for eastern ones - hee. I'm not sure of the logic of the person who had my job before me, but fortunately I have websites for my eastern caterpillars all book-marked for me. And the western one does help to at least get in the right family area. I would guess that your little wooly guy is probably some kind of Arctiidae - those are moths, but some can be quite lovely in coloration.

An example of an Arctiidae moth we have in Georgia...

Just in case anyone hasn't seen one - here's a lady beetle larvae. They aren't always this brightly colored, but they are usually this shape.

Zuzu, I looked up Wooly Bears, and although the ones in my yard are similar, I've never noticed any red on them at all. I think they are completely black, but I'll start paying more attention.
http://www.coldspringschool.org/Mill/wooly.html

I never kill them either, they are so cute. If I come across one out on the cement, I pick him up and put him in the garden.

Night_Bloom, I didn't realize that you do this for an "actual" job too. That's very cool! I'd love to figure out what moth these little critters become, I'm wondering if they become the ones my cats bring in, they are absolutely gigantic, like 2 inches long with a huge wing span. I'd rather they become a cute SMALL little moth....all the bugs around here seem to get huge, the grasshoppers can get to be 3 inches long, sometimes I feel like I'm living in a 50's sci-fi film.

Night_Bloom,

My DH would love an excuse to get a microscope, so maybe next season I'll start sorting out the friend and foe C-shaped grubs. For this year, I'll keep squishing, since the squash and cuc eating beetles were my only serious pest last year.

This is really the best thread I've ever run into on DG. Just wonderful of you to share your knowledge and help us learn to be able to see the workings of the insect world a bit. (like trash bugs! I'd thought the birds were awfully prolific -- now it turns out that at least 1/2 of it is trash bugs. Very cool).

I'm heading out with the hose to break up the aphid party. Thanks for the explanation about why this works (barring carpenter ants in the area -- great photo!!). Yes, the mummies are very cool -- and I'd never have known what I was looking at till you pointed it out. I think that some of the black husks had tiny white eggs on them yesterday -- does that make sense?

Nothing stronger than neem gets sprayed here, so the aphids were pretty safe with me (shhh. don't spread it around in the bug world!). I love the flowers, and I'll go after whatever reduces my vege crop, but first priority is to try to support a reasonably healthy ecology and build the soil on our little patch of ground.

I spotted a lady bug (beetle) yesterday, and I'd seen one other a couple of weeks ago. I was starting to think of importing, but maybe they'll be along now. *Thank you* for the photo of the lady beetle larva -- I was just going to say I wouldn't know one if it bit me, and there you'd posted a pic.

Just thought I'd share a website I just found when I was trying to identify the giant moth I was talking about earlier.
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/distr/lepid/moths/mothsusa.htm

The home site is the Northern Prairie Wildlife Research Center and if you click on the site map there are some really interesting topics, including one on insects, but that section has a fairly limited region.

margu, did you find out what your large moths were? I'm actually not too bad at the large moths - with a picture or color description, I might be able to help you. To give you a head start, many of the larger moths belong to the family Saturniidae - the giant silk moths. This might narrow your search down for you.

I got busy at work today and forgot to get my caterpillar book, but if I don't find it online this weekend, I'll take a look on Monday, I promise. If it is an Arctiidae, it should be a smallish size moth. The one in my picture above is about an inch long at most.

paani - I'm glad you like this thread. As for the black aphids that look like they have "eggs," that could be possible. They could be another type of parasite that leaves eggs inside. I would've probably guessed that the black ones had an insect disease, but another type of parasite is certainly possible too - even in my case, there is always something new to learn about insects.


I still have quite a few more types of predatory bugs (Hemiptera) to share with you, but for tonight's beneficial insect, I thought I'd give have something a little different. This little fly is actually a predator commonly called a long-legged fly. It's in the family Dolichopodidae. Both the larval and adult stage is predatory on small insects such as aphids and smaller flies. Sometimes many of these flies can congregate on plants, running up and down the leaves looking for insects, and so be mistaken for doing something suspicious ( I usually get a few samples of these a year from concerned homeowners). They can also congregate for mating where the males sometimes "dance" to attract the females. Most species are a metallic green, blue, or coppery color. They are small, usually less the 3/8 of an inch (9 mm).

Night_Bloom,

what camera do you use? Your close-ups are fabulous.


I noticed that the brown "mummy" aphids don't wash off the leaves quite as readily as the others, so it was possible to leave some of the mummies in place while hosing off the rest. Realized that only after blasting everybody off of a lot of the plants, but will know for next time.

Night_Bloom will be a great asset to DG! We are hoping she frequents the Butterflies and Hummers Forum often!! (hint,hint)

paani - Thanks. I use a Nikon Coolpix 4500. I love it. The "twist" feature allows me to get a good angle on the shots and the up to 1 inch focus range allows me to get close.

And hee, imway. As soon as I get some of my butterfly pictures sorted out, I'll post some. As for the hummers - I can't ever seem to get them to stay still long enough to photograph. Mine haven't shown up this year yet, though, even though I have their feeder out for them already.

Butterflies will be fine. :-)

Hi Night_Bloom! After looking at the moth photos, I did narrow it down indeed to the Saturniidae family, but I'll have to wait until one of the cats brings one in to "play" with this summer. I didn't take a good enough look at them last year to identify them, but they are really huge. And I think you're going to be right about the black caterpillars being Arctiidae. If I can't find the correct caterpillar pic, I'm going to have to pay closer attention to the moths this year. ;-)

Night_Bloom,

here's one you probably wouldn't think of, because the difference must be SO obvious to you:

sometime before the high season, will you give me a lesson on lady beetle vs. spotted cucumber beetle?

They look different in books and so on. But out there in the garden I'm pretty sure I let a lot of spotted cuc. beetles go last year thinking...is it..? what if it's a lady bug....? lady bugs don't have a head like that.... or do they? etc.

This sounds like a stupid question but here goes...Do the robins and other insect eating birds eat the bad guys as well as the good guys?We have lots of birds and they do make a mess but I love seeing them.I would like to think that they are helping me get rid of pests as well as eating my earth worms.What about the c shaped grubs?

d_b, birds do eat bad guys too -- but it will take Night_Shade to tell us which ones (maybe even which birds eat which bugs?!!)

well night_shade, my aphids are sitting pretty *atop* those 2-3 ft. plants again. It's happened twice now (and no carpenter ants in sight!). I've hosed them off really well, but I'm guessing there's just too much foliage (including hostas) below, and so they don't get to the ground, and then merrily climb back aboard.

So I guess my question is about spread. They *seem* to be congregating on the one type of plant, but if they're going to move over to the peonies (about 8 feet) or roses (10 feet) for example., then I'll want to get rid of them first!

I've got green aphids in the last tulips too. And along with them is an insect with alternating dark brown and tan coloration in something like a zig-zag pattern. Are they just another aphid, or could they be aphid eaters!!? (slightly bigger than the green aphids. not mummies - they're as active as the greens).

about my lady beetle vs. spotted cucumber beetle question: maybe the better question is:
are there features that will help us to always recognize a lady beetle (including when just out of the larval stage)?

what I really want to do is to be confident that I'm *not* squashing a lady beetle, whatever the other beastie might be.

What a great thread! I am hooked.......

Lately the Ladybugs have been breeding again, and the larva have been seeking out food or maybe places to "change". I cannot remember from my childhood how a larvae turns to a lady beetle??? Today I saw several orange cocoons on my tomato leaves and assumed they were lady bugs. Then I got my Garden Alive! catalog, and there was a photo of a potato beetle, and the larvae next to it looked the same as those on my plants!!!

Night bloom, could you please show us what the cocoon for a lady bug looks like? I don't want to smash any, but I can't imagine why a potato beetle would be on the tomato plants (except that my potatoes are barely up, so I suppose tomatoes would be fair game).

Keep this going, very educational and fun! Loved those Potato Bug photos LOL

Tamara

downscale babe - Welcome. Yes, birds will definitely eat the bad grubs when they can get a hold of them. When I rototill my garden the birds can't wait for me to go do something else in the yard so that they can come down and grab up all the grubs they can get their beaks on. If I come across one while I'm planting, I throw it out somewhere conspicuous - like on the walkway - so the birds can come down and get them. If I were an early riser, I might be able to tell you if they were efficient at hunting them on their own - and I assume they are, because at least one species comes to the surface (green June beetles), but alas I don't call myself Night Bloom for nothing - hee.


paani - Unfortunately at present I don't have a cucmber beetle photo - they are a "wet-looking" light green with black spots and generally not as round shaped as lady beetles. It's hard to give an all encompasing lady beetle description though, because there are so many different species... some are red with black spots that can vary from two to 12 or more, others have no spots at all, others even are black with red spots. If I get a cucumber beetle this year, I'll be sure to photograph it and post it here.

As for your aphids, I am sorry to hear that yours are so persistent. if it appears that they start doing damage - I can't be sure about the staying put, though many are fairly picky about what kind of plants they eat - I suggest the imidicloprid (in stuff such as Bayer Advanced - check for imidicloprid as the active ingredient). It will work systemically, so will only get the critters that dare to nibble or suck on your plants, but it won't get the caterpillars.


TamaraFaye - hello and welcome. I'll see what I can do. I'll have to provide a link (give me a day or two to see if I can find some good images), because I don't have pictures of a lady beetle pupae, though I have seen them. They actually look a lot like the larvae, except "squished up" so that they appear hunched and they are immobile. As far as I know, Colorado potato beetles pupate in the ground, not on the plants. I don't have a picture of the larva, but I'll try to find a link to that too.

I guess basically if it is immobile on the plant, it is probably a lady beetle pupae. The lady beetle larvae should look imilar to my picture. I'll try to get a picture of a Colorado potato beetle larva.


Now for another picture of a benficial insect. This one is actually familiar, but most people probably don't know that it is a predator on all kinds of insects, so here I provide picture evidence of one of these gals in action. Here is a yellow jacket happily tearing apart an insect - I believe it was a caterpillar in this case, but by the time the yellow jacket is done, it's hard to tell. They yellow jacket might eat a little. The rest it will carry back to the nest to feed the young.

This message was edited May 10, 2005 6:41 AM

One more tonight/this morning. This is a stilt bug (family Berytidae). It is another of the true bugs (Hemiptera). This one, however, is only part "good". It is also unusual in that it will both suck plant sap and predate on small insects. A few of these shouldn't do much harm to the plant. They are also rather intersting looking, I think, because of their "elegant" long legs and antennae. This one was perched on some Coleus last year.

This message was edited May 10, 2005 6:50 AM