Trying to germinate Geranium rubescens

I have been allocated a few Geranium rubescens seeds in a seed exchange. Can anyone give reliable advice in relation to appropriate germination treatment... warm, cold, fluctuating?

Have recently realised G. r. is a biennial that flowers in spring so guess it will germ @ 70.

These germinated after about a week at 70F. Easy... (Now comes the tricky bit.)

Geranium rubescens? Not familiar with that one. I have bunch of the robust ZA ones on filter paper, though none of them have germinated yet. I also go some some from Chiltern Seeds, which is an excellent company. The good thing about the filter paper is it doesn't take up much room, but it does take a lot of time to go through all the seeds, and it is somewhat like doing ships in a bottle to get the ones with long roots planted.

G. Rubescens has very attractive foliage, but, like many hardy geraniums tends to spread. http://www.glendalegeraniums.co.uk/geraniumsrz.htm
I got the seed via the NARGS seed exchange. I also use Chilterns, but with ~ 120 lots from the NARGS exercise, I don't buy so many as I used to...
I absolutely agree with you about using the Deno (filter paper) method. However, it is tricky for very small seeds, and I think that Deno's method for getting light to the seeds is impractical. If I think that they need light, I sow seeds on the top of moist vermiculite and enclose the pot in a plastic bag. The Leschenaultia seeds are still going back and forth to the fridge, but no germination yet...
All the best..

I put up about 400 different seeds in the filter papers and in plastic tubs in the last month or so. So far about a hundred have germinated, some in as few as three days. Most of them have germinated green, though a few are very light colored. With the ones that have germinated lack of lots of light doesn't seem to have been a problem. Tiny seeds work fine if you have quite a few, though it is best to spread them out as best you can. I started using a thin layer of coir on top of the cell pack for the little guys and then covering thinly with some more coir and a little shot of chamomile tea to firm it up.

Biggest problem has been the fungi, though that is mostly under control and usually affects only the large seeds. Changing papers, using the chamomile tea and rinsing the affected ungerminated ones in weak bleach solution seems to work.

It is probably not worth the trouble if you are doing easy to germinate, just a few seeds or have lots of room. With a mixed bag like I have and some expensive seed, mostly proteacae, I wanted to watch what was going on. Uneven germination and slow germination work very well with the filter paper.

I can go through them pretty fast when there is no germination or no fungi but either of those two cases slows down the process, but then germination is the point.

I started marking hash marks on the filter paper when I take seedlings off and that seems to work pretty well. Since I am only looking for one viable plant out of each species or variety, I usually just plant up a 6 pack of seedlings and discard the rest. The six packs are planted as the come off, sometimes all of one but much of the time a mixture of multiple kinds of seedlings. Since I just do it for myself and am planning on moving them up in size before putting them in the ground it is not a problem.

I am not sure how I am going to keep track of what I plant out yet, though I usually do metal labels for the perennials, shrubs and trees, so I guess that will work.

I haven't figured out how to keep track of what failed and what seeds I have left yet either. Generally I do not put that many seeds on the filter paper and never more than half, except when you only get five or fewer seeds.

This is my method for hardy Geranium. Anchor the seed with tweezers and abrade the surface of the seed's skin just a little (less than 1mm. SKIN ONLY) with sandpaper and soak the seed in water overnight. And sow the seed in a pot and place it at 65F to 70F. The seed will start to gerninate within a week.

Chuck, you seem to have got the filter method taped. My guess is that moistening the filter paper with copper fungicide instead of water would fix the fungus problem.
I have noticed that there are some seeds that seem to have some acidic covering that dissolves the filter paper. Helleborus is one genus that seems to do that.
Do you have car boot sales? Surplus small plants can raise some small revenue through those... I feel like a murderer when I throw away 'baby plants'... (Currently I am feeling stupid as over a hundred of Primula watsonii - one of the least attractive primulas - germinated and I have all these seedlings in three trays of cells!).

Maybe I'll try the 'abrading' method with my next lot... as they are difficult to harvest, you usually don't get many seeds in a packet, so I am wary of damaging them!

Incidentally, at least one Geranuim (G. orientalitibeticum) needs cold conditions (in my experience) to germinate...

For the South African and Australian seeds there is a specific fungicide, but it is not available in the US. I have been using the method I described above. It is not perfect as I still get some fungi but I just do not know how much to do without damaging the embryos.

I am retired, working very hard at it. I just could not countenance doing anymore like selling the surplus. I am hoping that when I get it down and can produce good-looking plants I can give them to the local Sierra Club/California Native Plant Society for their annual sales. The only other way would be to work out a deal with a nursery to take some of them on consignment. But I do not want another job. I am enjoying what I am doing, but putting up 400 seeds was a bit much. It takes almost a whole day to go through them. Fortunately many are sprouting and I can get rid of that number. I am going to be gone most of August so I have to stop pretty soon or find someone to go through them for me.

It is easier to throw away the little seedlings than plants in the trays, or if you have taken enough to dump the remaining unsprouted ones.

All in all it has been great fun the last few months to go from knowing hardly anything to being able to produce seedlings consistently. Consuming at times, fortunately my wife is pretty tolerant most of the time, though she is very territorial about her fridge and the driveway in front of her car and her half of the garage.

I think you've done brilliantly in that time... it took me the best part of a decade to learn how to crack the germination thing (obviously a lot of plants are easy, but others are really tricky). But I still find there are some seeds that I can't quite manage. What books do you use to find out the best methods?... I've got the first two of Deno's books and I use the Ontario Rock Garden Society website, but if the species isn't there I just guess based on where the plant is found in the wild...

Actually looking at all the old posts on this very forum gave me more information than anything else. What works, what doesn't, advice when I asked. I have kept up a running commentary in various threads on my progress. It is how I got invovled with Dave's in the first place. I would do a search on Yahoo (I am old-fashioned) and Dave's would come up, so I joined and have been an active participant since. I started with Marigolds like everyone else but jumped to the ZA and Aussie stuff as soon as it arrived, and that is where I really want to be. It just isn't available in any variety or quantity and so many of them do so well here.

Plus, I wanted to do some of the California natives that I would see in my travels taking pictures.

The logical next step for me is cuttings and a mist bench, but I do not have a place that will work for that yet, need to build a deck.

Most things like warmth and light, so I start there, unless there are specific instructions that I can find. There is a very good book on the CA natives put out by Santa Barbara Botannical Garden, Dara somebody is the author. I have looked at a few books but beyond Dave's it is mostly trial and error. I went way overboard in the beginning, not realizing how warm a few flourescent lights could make an enclosed space. But that worked out well anyway. It turns out that plants that germinate at 75 degrees will germinate just as well at 80. The garage door is open during the day to keep the temperature down.

The nature of my yard is such that only tough plants will survive, no delicate ones requiring rich, moist, deep soil. Any of those I want to grow have to be done in pots. But there are thousands and thousands of tough plants of all sizes that will grow in a Mediterranean climate. Sometimes you have to try several times or more to get them to take, though.

Kirstenbosch, B&T, Sandeman, Silverhills, FineBush, Chilterns, Plantworld, Nindethana have been good to work with. It takes a while to get the seeds, so you have to be patient. There are way more seed places out there, but I think I am done ordering seeds for this year. But next year.....I will start earlier, try tougher things.

As it turns out, using the plastic tubs and filter papers, you can manipulate the plant's environment such as to fool it into thinking it is winter. The fridge is a wonderful thing.

Legginess in fast growing seedlings, fungi on the filter paper, and coaxing the shy ones to germinate are the biggest challenges right now. But probably the biggest is figuring out what to do with the output, as it has exceeded my ability to plant and get rid of.

I just checked my filters and have discovered a massive germination of Michauxia tchihatchewii - this is great as I have tried three times before with no success. This time I tried adding a small amount of GA3 and it seemed to do the trick. I am hoping that this time next year I will have a big stand of them in my garden in France.

That's great! I think I have that one on the filter paper, but I am not sure. I just finished putting some more out to soak. The end is near, though. Only a hundred or so more. I just checked, I have M. campanuloides, not M. tchihatchewii, double ordered it for some reason. Have to try that one next year.

M. campanuloides is easier than tchihatchewii, but I have shown that it needs LIGHT, so filter paper will probably not work.
I split my M. campanuloides seeds in two and the ones in the light germinated ~ 60%, the others nothing. I tried to dry out the filter paper seeds and transfer them to the surface sowing medium, but that hasn't worked too well, only one has germinated so far...
I think you should take the filter paper, turn it inside out and put it in a plastic bag on a north-facing windowsill.

Since I have two, one number 516, I haven't sowed yet and one 376, I probably have, when I finish up in the next two days, I do the high number the old fashioned way (two months old), on top with a perlite cover and we will see what happens. What does michauxia do anyway? It has been a while since I ordered it and there have been so many seeds in between.

I think I was attracted by the size, the self-sowing and the ability to live in poor soil. Looks like a good one. Not many American sources, I got my Michauxia campanuloides from Chiltern, who are incredibly fast and reliable.

So many times you one makes decisions to buy rather quickly and it will be interesting to see how this one turns out. Should know in a few months. Some of the others will take a year or two. I ordered a bunch of kniphofias, I was particularly interested in the big ones. They seem to be germinating easily. I assume it will be a year or two before they bloom.

Fouquiera columnaris was hard to find as a plant and the one I did find died. I got some seed and it germinated quickly, four out of six and the other two are still viable as well. With six, you get eggrolls, hopefully I will not kill them all. Very touchy on the drainage.

The Fouquira looks really wild, we could never grow that here - too wet and cold. Even where I am in France (to the west of centre) is too cold in the winter for that. It looks the sort of thing to grow as a hedge if you don't like your neighbours! I have this notion that I might be able to grow some nearly hardy cycads outdoors in France, but every time I put the seedlings out here, they stop growing or get eaten by slugs...
Kniphofias tend to be fairly deep-rooted. I have grown a few, but they don't seem to like transplantation as they are so firmly rooted, I tend to be too rough with them. One has survived.

I am now the proud father of around 80 Michauxia tchahatchewii seedlings. Also germinating... Meconopsis betonicifolia. This is the second half of the seeds as I made the mistake of putting the first lot out in plant cells in the spring and then a couple of hot dry days shrivelled them :o(.

You've gotten me excited about another one. I have shied away from the meconopsis and the primulas, they just seem like they would not do well here. F. columnaris should do all right if I can find a place with decent soil and good drainage. Most of the plants that are from the coastal area of Baja California do great here. It is hotter there but otw the damp winters and dry summers are the same.

F columnaris is more about the challenge. I have an Auracaria auracana but I want an A. bidwillii. I haven't found the right place for the A. auracana so it is languishing in a 5 gallon can. We had a A. bidwillii in our yard when we were growing up, but my mother cut it down, too messy and she was afraid of the cones hurting someone. Not that I would see the cones in my lifetime.

The michauxia intrigue me. I will try some more next year.

Some primulas are primarily bog plants (bulleyana for example) and I guess they would not do so well. If you have some shade, you might try Primula vialli, or some of the alpine primulas. I've got a few spare p. cockburniana seeds if you wanted... they are light warm germinators.
I'll tell you what is dead easy and decidedly strange looking (not as strange as the Fouquira!) - Primula watsonii. (http://www.kevockgarden.co.uk/plantlist/primula_vialii.htm)... again light warm germinators, but every seed seems to germinate in about ten days...
Source can be a problem, but I got my seed from NARGS - their seed exchange is so good, its easily worth the $30-ish membership...

I am beginning to wonder just how much germination I will get in the dark after what you have been saying. I was checking one of the smaller containers with a mixture from several different plantings. Not much had happened in two days. I just do not see an easy way to convert the filter papers in the tubs to baggies. There is just not enough room and to leave enough space in between to get light to them. Are they just slow germinators or is it the lights? No action on the restios at all. But they are slow germinators. If I switch now and then they germinate, no real way of knowing if it was the switch or just time. If I could figure out a cheap spacer then I could just stack the baggies. Probably wouldn't need more than a quarter of an inch. It would have to be light weight and transparent. Maybe something you could put inside the baggie to inflate it, then just stack them in a square transparent container. That would actually work pretty well. I guess off to Wal+Mart, see what they have in the way of containers and baggie sizes.

Got some quart baggies, a container and just moved the filter papers over on about 40 of them. Some were restios, some that had not germinated, some that had germinated but these were left, Michauxia campanuloides. We will see what happens. If this works, I will switch to the cone type filter paper as it is easier to work with in the baggies since you do not have to fold it, but that would be for the fall as I am not going to switch all the ones on the layered filter papers. I guess I wll find something else to do for a few days, till I see if there is any change. I am not sure what I will do with the soakers that come off this evening and the soaker/smokers that will get smoke tonight and be ready to go tomorrow night. I suppose I should try them with the cone filter papers and the baggies since many of them are leucospermums, leucodendrons, and proteas as well as some restios. Fair test I suppose. The baggie approach takes up quite a bid more room, but I think I can manipulate the space sufficiently to keep them both warm and receiving light

I wonder if they will need to be damper or drier in the baggie or just the same. I dampened them up as they tend to get a little dry on top. The moisture level evens out pretty much through the whole container, which will not be the case with the baggies. Should be easier to see if there is any germination without pawing throw each sheet.

Thanks for the offer on the primulas, but I pretty much decided I would plant what I have and then take a break till late fall. P. watsonii looks good, but I have a steep rocky hillside to work with. There is some moisture retention at the bottom, but in general it is only wet from April till December if and where I water it with drippers. Soil is generally a rocky clay, sandstone, or pure sand depending on where you are. There are just a few small areas where there is normal top soil. The site was graded extensively to create the street above and the house pad, so it is largely subsoil except on the margins where there is native soil. Anything like the primulas has to be done in pots.

Well, more than fifty will fit in the box. I went ahead and did some sixty more with the baggies. I think I will finish up doing them this way and if any of the filter papers go bad, I will convert them. I think it is not any slower than the other way and twice as fast to go through them. Less chance for cross contamination, you can treat the fungi in one without harming the others. The only question I have is how damp to make the baggie. I dampened the filter papers as I have been doing and then I put an extra squirt in the bag to maintain the humidity level. I wonder if that is OK?

If you give a list of the species, I can tell you whether Deno has found them to need light. Couldn't you find an area outdoors in the shade where you could put the light-sensitive seeds?
I have trouble with the moisture level in the baggies as well. When I sow them, I usually give 6 squirts per coffee filter.

Thanks, but there are 600 of them. I am just going to switch them all as I go through them. I think that eight to ten containers will fit on one shelf of the seed palace. If hey germinate faster this way I can reduce the number quicker. I have been getting the filter, the smaller cone one, pretty wet, then giving the baggie, the quart size, a pretty good shot. I might be able to fit them in the smaller sandwich size baggie, which would reduce the need for moisture and would take up less space, though the filter would need to be folded. When I get through the last of the quart-size, I will try that.

Just thought that you might like to try this very good general book on propagation http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=Thompson%2C+Peter&y=15&tn=Creative+Propagation&x=30
The author used to work in Kew Gardens, had his own nursery business, and went on to become a teacher in a major horticultural college. He gets the business of propagation down to a few simple methods.
As to the amount of water for the filters, I think the only problem with too much moisture comes when the water excludes the air, or causes the filter to degrade too quickly.

I was more worried about the fungi. Some of the seeds make holes in the filter papers and turn it colors. I have wondered if replacing the papers when this happens is helpful or slows down the process. I hadn't thought about the lack of air. I suppose you need to open them up every so often, then.

The chamomile tea should help the fungus. If you leave any that seem to be going mouldy out to dry for half an hour or so, then spray them with chamomile tea, that should knock the funghi on the head. (I never use chamomile, myself, as I am less than organic, I use copper fungicide...). The holes in the filter paper must, I think, be due to the acidic character of some seeds that I mentioned earlier in the thread...

I will try the dryout method. Just finished putting the ZA ones in the smoke solution. I am wondering what would happen if I made up a spray bottle solution of the smoke primer and sprayed it on some the restios. What is the name of copper fungicide? Could it harm the seeds? or is it specific to fungi? Now that everyone has their own container, cross contamination is less of a problem.

If you ask your garden centre for copper fungicide they should know what you mean. Ober here it goes under the name of 'Murphy's', but I doubt if they operate in the US.

It won't harm the seeds.

A couple of no-brainers germinated in 24 hours after being soaked with the new method. A crotalaria and Lupinus albus. The latter has wonderful seeds, very large. All 7 seven germinated. It needs a moist spot, so I guess it will have to go down below. Never seen it, anxious to get it in the ground, since I believe it is an annual. Sure is a lot easier to go through the seeds. I am pretty much heading toward converting them all. Bags tend to settle a little, so I need to put something in there to keep some space. They are staying quite moist.