what does "heirloom" mean?

I learned the word "determinate" today, but what do you guys mean by plants being heirloom?

The term heirloom is loosely used. Usually it means a seed that has not been in commercial production for at least 50 years..but that isn't always the case when uninformed people speak of heirlooms.

It has come to be used interchageably with 'open pollinated'.
OP,as you will see used in these forums means that you will get the same plant from seeds saved each season. Now you ask,don't all seeds do this? Not at all.
Many plants are hybrids and they are created by seed companies from breeding stock especially for certian traits.
Burpee's Big Boys,Early Girl's and Jet Stars are all examples of hybrid tomatoes.The seeds that you save will either be sterile,or the plants and fruits will not resemble the parents.

We have several real experts on tomatoes here at DG and they can go into far more detail than I ever can,but Carolyn Male in her book,100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden divides heirlooms into 3 seperate classes...there are commercial heirlooms..seeds that have been developed by seed companies of OP varieties years ago and sold commercially.
Family heirlooms...seeds that have been passed down through generations,or brought by immigrants to America. And Mystery heirlooms..no one knows the origins.

It is a wonderful 'tomato world' out there with literally thousands of great tomatoes of all shapes,sizes ,colors and tastes to grow,and any help that I can be ,just ask.

Melody, I always learn something - usually several things - from your posts. This one got me and my housemate thinking, and it led us to two questions: (1) Why do OP varieties stay true and resemble the parents, even if they're pollinated by other varieties? Maybe because most of their traits are dominant and have "won out" over the years? And in a similar vein: (2) Why are the seeds from hybrids sterile or different from the parents? Maybe they have desirable recessive traits that were contrived in the original hybrid plant, and these traits are lost when they're open-pollinated in our gardens?

I might be really out in left field here, but it's got my curiosity up! If you have the time, I'd love to hear more about tomato breeding from you or anybody willing to share info.

This message was edited Saturday, Jun 23rd 12:17 AM

If an OP tomato is crossed with pollen from another tomato...you would have another new tomato!

The genes just wouldn't be stable enough for it to come true each time it was planted.This is how the 'created heirlooms' are done.If you get a desireable fruit from a cross pollination,then you would grow the seeds from this fruit over several years,only saving the seeds from the plants that exibit the traits that you want to keep.When you get plants and fruits that only have the traits that you want,then you have 'created' a new tomato.This usually takes at least 5 seasons minimum.

Tomatoes are 'self fruitful' meaning that the flowers are both male and female together.That way they will pollinate themselves often before the blooms open.Crosses are possible and do happen,but not like peppers that insects can reach to spread pollen.

Now for the hybrids...you've seen a mule haven't you? A cross between a horse and a donkey? Big strong animal good for many uses...except you can't get little mules from them.
They're hybrids!All mules are sterile.So are some hybrid seeds.

Now the breeding stock for the tomato companies have tomatoes with highly specialized traits.One that ripens early may be suseptable to disease,so you cross with one that is resistant.Some may have irregular fruit(not a problem as far as I'm concerned)and so they cross to get those perfect little globes that line the supermarket shelves.Tough skin is bred in for ease of shipping at the expense of taste.Now a hybrid tomato can have several parents and I'm no expert on the whys and hows of this at all.Carolyn Male and Tom Wagner stop into this site on occasion and they are the authority as far as tomatoes go.
This is their busiest season of course,but I hope this fall to glean some great tips and info from them again.

Hey! If either one of you are out there.....help me out here!

Essencia,If you have questions,fire away! I'll be glad to help where I can and hopefully find some answers for you with some of my other sources.

Aha, great explanation, Melody. Now it makes much more sense how heirlooms remain heirlooms and why hybrids are sterile.

I really appreciate your taking the time to post. I'm trying to soak up as much info as I can before next year, when I intend to go on a full-out tomato growing spree.

Thank you!

To cheer up a bit...

Some fellows with greenhouses in Western Crete thought that more money is being made by seed selling than by tomato selling - they knew a hybrid that yielded seeds that germinate well and give a very aggressive tomato plant. They went on, produced the seeds to a large scale (local) trade quantity, and the other chaps with greenhouses came and bought the stuff. A month later they all took the seller to court, because their greenhouses were full of huge nice-looking tomato plants not producing a single flower !! They even cosidered compensation from the government. blaming the weather for the lack of flowers...

Dimitri

The moral to this story is...."if you don't do your homework,it will come back to bite you in the butt!"

Great story Dimitri!

Now look up semi-determinate

I'm still trying to figure out what "beefstake type" means:) Maybe any tomato that's over 8 oz. in weight, any color, any shape, and any taste?

I'm not sure of the exact definition either, Owen. Does anyone else know the answer?

Terri

Up to the top!

Well, after a very brief skimming of the web, I'm not finding an easy answer. However, I'd have to guess that beefsteak (I think that's how it's spelled) may be a reference to the "meatiness" of certain tomato varieties. Anybody else have a better guess (or an "official" origin of the term?)

Thanks for resurrecting this one Melody - I had forgotten all about it!