Seed Collecting

> Unblemished fruit must be significantly overripe before harvesting seed; clean and dry seeds

I see this quite often in the details of several plant families. Does anyone know what source is being quoted?

JohnT

I'm not sure what the source is, but it is mainly for folk who are newbies to seed saving.

Green bell peppers do not have viable seeds (or many) this is to help folks understand that fruits need to be fully mature...and some do not realize that the green form is not mature. I'm not convinced that 'significantly over ripe' applies to peppers, but understand the reason for the detail being there.

This is one example of why this detail appears in the PF. I know that you are familiar with the pepper family, and guessed that it was there that the question came from. I think that in this case, the PF editors were trying to be thorough.

Terry may come along and post the source.

> I'm not convinced that 'significantly over ripe' applies to peppers,...

I hope you don't think that I am nit-picking, but I would remove the "must" part. There is at least one capsicum study that does show the benefits of letting a pod go past ripe, but I don't recall ever reading that it is absolutely necessary. And for the record, I pick pods when ripe and let them sit on the counter to go past ripe for personal seed saving especially with special plants.

I see your point, and it's a good one. Maybe we could suggest that the option be 'tweaked' a bit to reflect a better explaination. There are plants, such as eggplants that need to be over ripe for seeds to be successfully saved.

I'll check with Jeff Nekola and see what he says about it...he's the best pepper expert that I know. Is it just the pepper entries that you are concerned with?

Your input is valued, and we're glad that you are concerned about the PF data being as correct as possible. Please give us your thoughts on this.

This is off the originial subject, but concerns peppers...we had a great debate several years ago around here about pepper seeds needing to be fermented like tomatoes...both camps were convinced that their way was correct. I've never fermented pepper seeds.....do you?

> I'll check with Jeff Nekola and see what he says about it...he's the best pepper expert that I know.

Wow, it must be great to have his "ear". I really miss his old website at UWGB and read on another forum that he is no longer doing any work on heirloom vegetables and is now at the Univ of New Mexico.

Nobody that I know ferments pepper seeds any more. They don't have a germination inhibiting gel coating and there are easier ways to treat for seed-borne disease. Since I've never had a disease problem with my capsicums the only thing I do now is to rinse the seeds well & very slowly dry them on paper plates at room temp.

And yes, it was only peppers that I was concerned with even though I saw the description with other families.

I haven't touched base with Jeff for a couple of years...I do have his email though...will see if he will give a little input on the subject.

I've never had any disease problems with capsicums either..fermenting was an un-necessary aggrivation in my opinion...never did it.

My only concern with changing the detail is making sure it still gives the novice a clear understanding of what is needed to properly save seeds.

I'll go find Terry and ask her to jump in on our conversation...maybe she can give us some input.

That option was written with an eye toward the vegetables that really do need to be significantly overripe to harvest viable seeds. Like any generalization, it doesn't apply to every situation. What if we changed it to read "should" instead of "must"?

> What if we changed it to read "should" instead of "must"?

Why not wait and get some more opinions? I don't like 'should' either. <G> Seeds saved from a ripe pod are just fine and proper drying, storage and method of germinating the seeds are more important in my opinion. And opinion is just all it is. I am simply an avid hobbyist and not an expert.

jt

I've sent off some questions for a few pepper/seed saving experts that I have contacts with...waiting for responses.

My DGM professed the best way to plant many things still in their over ripe parent. She believed that an 'rotten tomatoe had everything it took to nurture seeds until they germinated.
An over ripe Peach was my own personal experience in El paso 30 years ago. Made a beautiful tree and delicious peaches. I planted it stem up and it took off, could have been beginners luck.

It depends on the situation. "Significantly over-ripe' peppers can develop mold in humid conditions and that will affect seed viability.

We're trying to come up with a statement that will inform novices, yet satisfy knowlegeable growers.

hopefully, I'll get some responses soon and we'll decide what is best for the situation.

I like 'should' instead of 'must'. More experienced seed savers probably don't need the distinction between them, but still gets the point across to a novice that seeds are better collected from overly ripe fruit.
Seed saved from ripe fruits/pods/whatever, is fine for eating but not always fine for seed saving. Well past the eating stage is going to be better in terms of seed maturity.

This message was edited Mar 12, 2005 3:19 PM

Actually folks...many seed collectors that save pepper seeds wait 'til the fruit has matured to it's "end color" AND the skin of the fruit is slightly shriveled (wrinkled).

Perhaps ya'll can work that description in a "short precise sentence of explanation"?

From "The Pepper Garden" by Dave DeWitt & Paul W. Bosland (page 94)

Pod Maturity, Seed Dormancy, and After-ripening

The maturity of the pods at the time seed is extracted greatly influences germination. Immature pods will usually produce infertile seed, which will not germinate. In 1986, in a study conducted at the Louisiana Agricultural Experiment Station, R.L. Edwards and F.J. Sundstrom extracted seed from red and orange pods of Tabasco peppers harvested 150, 195, and 240 days after transplanting. They tested the seed for germination percentage and found, as expected, that seed from the red pods outperformed seed from the orange pods in all cases. They also discovered that the germination performance of seed from the red pods decreased as the season progressed: The 81 percent germination at 150 days dropped to 63 percent at 240 days. This study indicates that seeds from the earliest picked red pods will have the highest germination percentage, at least for Tabasco peppers.

Some peppers, like other perennials, produce seed that, when extracted from the fresh pods and planted, does not germinate immediately even though all the environmental factors favor germination. This survival mechanism, called dormancy, helps prevent germination in the fall, just before cold weather would kill the seedlings. Because peppers are perennials, but are grown as annuals in the United States, the degree of dormancy varies from variety to variety. The strongest dormancy appears in wild varieties, such as chiltepins, which overwinter well. Hybrids grown as annuals have the weakest degree of dormancy.

In the same study, Edwards and Sundstrom also tested the process called after-ripening, which is the gradual drying of the seed so that its moisture content drops from about 34 percent to 7 percent over a three-week period. In one test, the germination percentage of seed from red pods increased from 58 percent to 94 percent after twenty-one days of after-ripening. No significant effect of after ripening occurred on seed from immature pods.

This study, concurring with our observations over the years, indicates that the highest germination percentage occurs in seed harvested from early red pods that are dried for between one and four months. Some varieties have other colors, such as orange or yellow, at maturity, so growers should pick these pods for seeds when that color reaches its deepest hue.

I posted this over in veggies, but here's what two respected experts had to say on the subject. I think that we need to come up with some alternate wording in the PF. Bear in mind, that the list of seed saving options is getting quite long and adding another description will just make the list even longer. Also, if a totally new detail is added..someone will have to go back in manually to all of the cultivars...(and there are many...just ask Farmerdill) and change the checkbox for each and every one. Better to tweak the wording in the original description.

Suggestions please... Here's my post from the veggie thread.


I'm pulling this thread up because we need some suggestions on seed saving . Love2Troll has brought this subject up in the Seed Saving Forum and it bears looking into again.

We need to tweak the detail about properly saving seeds. The way it reads now is that 'unblemished fruit must be significantly over-ripe before harvesting seeds'

This is not entirely correct...seeds must come from totally mature fruit..but 'significantly over-ripe' can cause problems.

I have emails from both Suzanne Ashworth and William Woys Weaver, who have both graciously answered my question about seed saving. (sorry L2T...Jeff Nekola's email bounced)

Anyway, here are their replies...let's see if we can re-word the seed saving aspect to better describe what folks need to do. Here are their emails.... (sorry..I don't know how to do quotes)

Melody: That is correct: peppers must be very ripe for best long-term seed viability. I think the term "over-ripe" is tricky and may mislead some people, because in humid weather, over-ripe peppers may actually develop mold inside and this will damage the seeds. I think something like let the peppers ripen fullest to their described color (red, yellow, whatever the variety) and leave them on the plant for about a week. Ripeness is not the only issue: select peppers for seed that are truest to type (go by pod length specifications, etc). Seed saving is an art and a sensibility of knowing the right combination of elements to make it all work out in the end. Hope this helps....

William Woys Weaver

Melody, Try this explanation. The fruits should not be significantly overripe as the seeds will discolor and germination rates will be reduced if the peppers have started to mold inside. However, the fruits must be fully mature (ie have changed color from their immature-usually green-state to their mature color state) before the seed is viable. Stay warm.

Suzanne

Ok...we've got two very similar sets of instructions from two of the most respected seed savers that I had access to. They are the biggest guns that I know in this field.

Let's try and tweak the wording so that we have a better description...bear in mind, that we will still need to state that seed saving is not advised for hybrid plants, and this will be added to the detail.

If we have a 'blanket description' for pepper seed saving and eliminate the option choice..would we be better off? As far as I know...(and always did) pepper seed is saved in the same manner despite the cultivar...whay have a checkbox at all?