How do you feel about house sparrows and starlings?

I am brand new to birding and gardening, this year is my first time putting out a bird feeder and I'm trying to make my first garden one that will attract birds.

As a result of doing alot of reading here and elsewhere, I've discovered that house sparrows and European starlings are introduced species that some say are harmful to indigneous species like bluebirds and purple martins.

I want to attract songbirds to our yard, and so far have seen birds I never knew we had like chickadees, purple finches, titmice and juncos. The starlings and sparrows seem to be agressive and chase off other birds. I have gotten safflower and sunflower hearts and thistle because they are supposed to be favored by songbirds and feeders the big birds can't use, even though I put out suet and stuff on the ground too. Right now I am feeding them all.

In the past I have not had an issue with any bird but now I am concerned about the native species. Some even advocate killing male house sparrows but I can't see myself doing that, I even pick up spiders and put then out rather than kill them unless I have to. (waterbugs, mosquitos and slugs die without mercy, however).

I am very interested to see what people here think about all this sparrow vs. bluebird business. I would like to see a bluebird as opposed to the thousands of sparrows I have seen in my life however.

Please remember I am not advocating anything I am a newbie still learning, and a city girl at that, much more familiar with concrete than wildlife ;-) but trying to learn!

Thanks for listening/reading,

Maureen

Maureen--I'm afraid we have all researched and discussed the HOSP/Starling issue and have not been able to come up with anything more than what you have mentioned and tried already--here's what's been mentioned before and depending on your situation some of these ideas might work for you....

adjust your seed--limit to thistle and safflower or black oil; refrain from putting corn and bread on the ground.

adjust your feeders and include feeders with perches for small birds only;

feed the less desirable birds at another location;

if starlings show up at your feeders, bring your feeders in for a week;

use netting and wires to deter birds from some food sources;

put up Barn Owl Nest Boxes to attract natural predators;

put up scary balloons;

control Starling and HOSP nesting sites.

Good luck with the problem! When you get the answer please write a book and we'll all buy it! t.

I've had trouble this winter with the starlings cleaning out the peanut butter feeder. I've gone to putting it out just once a week. It often takes a couple of days before the starlings find it, so the other birds get some treats before the multitude of rude starlings return. Then, the PB is gone in minutes!

I don't mind the sparrows gobbling food. I very much dislike the starlings. I read somewhere that the starlings don't like safflower seeds and kernels so add a lot to the regular bird feed. The starlings chiefly eat the suet feeder blocks here.

Mourning doves like safflower seed and since they came around, the starlings are not frequent visitors.

Course I do have a mix of sunflowers, striped sunflowers, corn peanuts and other goodies in a seperate platform-like feeder. The starlings haven't been to that one yet. But the cardinals and bluejays came. And they are both aggressive birds.

There is no happy solution to this problem that will be accepted by our large and diverse members.
Guess we just have to keep trying various things.

Has anybody tried using a suet feeder made with some sort of smaller mesh wire? I'm thinking there must be some way of letting woodpecker beaks through but not big starling beaks, sort of like the thistle seed feeders that work far better for the finches than for the sparrows..... any thoughts?

Hi everyone,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I gotta say I was shocked when I learned about the HOSP/starling problem and "dispatching" the birds. But an introduced species attacking and killing our native bluebirds....not good.

critterologist;
I agree my main problem *seems* to have started with the starlings. I put out a suet feeder and the first thing I got was 2 beautiful downy woodpeckers. then a "flock" of about 6 starlings showed up and stared fighting with each other over the suet. I moved the suet to another part of the yard, and a day later they found it so now they fight over there! If I one for smaller beaks I will try it.

Before the starlings came, I had seen cardinals, black capped chickadees, 2 downy woodpeckers, tufted titmice and house finches in addition to the usual bluejays, sparrows and doves. Now I haven't seen the titmice or the finches in days :( I hope the starlings haven't scared them off.



This message was edited Feb 4, 2005 8:13 PM

se_eds;

I didn't know cardinals were aggressive....but then they are kind of a favored bird in these parts ;-)

tabasco;

I have the feeders made for small birds only. But I made the mistake of getting grocery store feed before reading up on bird seed....the starlings and sparrows like to scrounge on the ground for it. So do the squirrels, but I don't mind them and they seem to be at peace with the birds.

Whenever I see starlings I shoo them off...they really like to fight with each other!


This message was edited Feb 4, 2005 8:23 PM

I get a lot more finches on the sock type feeders than on the more expensive thistle plastic feeders.

Also, the feeder I use for black oil sunflower seeds(with the green metal cap) has small openings and I haven't seen the starlings eating from them.

Good to know that about sock feeders, I just ordered 2 for the finches! :)

maureen--you mentioned Bluebirds in your first post---are you planning to put up nesting boxes this month? I am interested to know about it, if you are...

I would like to create a bluebird trail around here and they say boxes should be up in February...sounds early to me and I'm wondering if all the HOSP will find them and nest before the BB get here...

Have a good weekend. t.

Tabasco-

I was looking into it, but I was told by the lady at our local wild bird store that bluebirds perfer meadows and I am in the middle of suburbia. I plan to tap some local bird resources and see if it is worth the effort to try to attract bluebirds in a mid-sized suburban backyard because I would love to.

I did do a lot of reading on bluebirds and bluebird trails which is where I found out about the HOSP/starling problem, especially HOSPs. Here's the links I found:

http://members.tripod.com/~herper/index-3.html
http://birds.cornell.edu/bluebirds/beginners.htm
http://audubon-omaha.org/bbbox/index.htm
http://www.nabluebirdsociety.org/facts.htm

Forums:
http://p202.ezboard.com/fbluebirdnutcafefrm14
http://nature.gardenweb.com/forums/bluebird/
http://www.birdforum.net/index.php?

I even looked at sparrow control and traps:
http://members.tripod.com/~herper/housesparrow.html
http://www.sialis.org/hospdispatch.htm
http://birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse/bhbasics/controlexotics.html

Hope this helps,

Maureen

This message was edited Feb 5, 2005 4:42 PM

maureen--thanks for all those links...there is so much interest in Bluebirds and it is remarkable that the 'BB nest box initiative' has brought them back from 'endangered' status in the last fifteen years... We live in 'outer' suburbia, neighboring a nature preserve and a golf course, and may just be able to attract BB...no one has seen any in our neighborhood but maybe with nest boxes something might develop....(we just moved here (Cincy) a year ago so I am just learning about the wildlife. A few DGers here have had good luck, though.)

I am intrigued also in the idea of putting up nest boxes for Red-headed Woodpeckers whose populations are diminishing because of habitat loss and loss of nesting spots...but there is not as much interest in a R-H WP's nest box initiative (yet) on the net, at least. We'll see, I guess. Our lady at the Wild Bird store didn't have a lot to say about it either. I know Red Headeds like mature trees, so if your neighborhood has those, perhaps you could attract them.

The Starling/HOSP issue is quite a connundrum. When I did the google search I was surprised to find among all the expected sites a 'Starling Conservation Club' (or some such). Oh, well....

Well, I want to follow your progress with Backyard Birding so pls. post some pics and keep us up to date. We just started 'birding' this year and we are now among the 'addicted'! t.

I don't discourage house sparrows here because during the summer months they nest in my barn and eat gazillions of horse flies. Barn swallows also nest in the barn, but they won't touch horse flies. I've never had a house sparrow inhabit any of the bluebird houses I have up around the fields, but the tree swallows will. I may try placing bluebird houses in pairs close to each other so the bluebirds can have one while the swallows take the other. I'm not sure about tree swallows, but I've read that bluebirds won't nest closely to one another.

Laurie

laurief, that is why I don't mind feeding the sparrows. They HAVE taken over the bluebird boxes we put up. But I know there is a whole field of bluebird boxes ( with bluebirds) not 2 miles from here at the Ned Smith Art and Wildlife Center.

I have observed these little sparrows - and I have all kinds, scratching and eating bugs, bugs bugs, up one row and down another in the garden. I don't like to use chemicals on food I eat, so I put out food for them during the winter and am tickled pink if I get some other beautiful birds to watch.

The wild birds ( pretty ones) have left the feeders for the fields today as it was warm and sunny. The only guy around was the "watchdog" up in the top of the tree.
American Crow, is one of a set of three. They are large and fight off hawks who try to steal dead stuff on the highway from them.

Right now I'm not having a problem with the house sparrows, but I am with starlings. They mob the suet feeder and fight rather viciously with each other. I moved the suet to another part of the yard away from the seed feeders, but the starlings will fly over to the seed feeders and chace off the other birds, even though they can't use the seed feeders!

I like feeding the ground feeding birds but I'm not putting out any more suet once this is gone, at least for a while. The sparrows however seem to be peaceful with the other birds, I hope they stay that way when breeding time starts.

Maureen

BLUEBIRDS DON'T NEST AT THIS TIME OF YEAR, BUT THEY START CHECKING OUT NESTING SITES. BE SURE AND WATCH YOUR BLUEBIRD HOUSES BECAUSE SPARROWS WILL TAKE THEM OVER IN A MINUTE.I HATED TO DO IT BUT I WOULD DISCARD THE NESTS IN THE BOX THAT THE SPARROWS WERE BUILDING. BLUEBIRDS ARE ALREADY CHECKING OUT MY BOX. BE SURE AND PUT THE BOX IN AN OPEN AREA. BLUEBIRDS ARE NOT USUALLY CITY DWELLERS. DIXIEHIL

mlm--over the weekend I took the time to go thru the bluebird links---the first one especially is a very well written site on how to start BB-ing! I am a member of NABS and in the past I have found the other sites most helpful. Thanks for posting them. I am going to write Cornell and ask them about the Red Headed Woodpecker Initiative.

I noticed also on one of the sites that they recommended removing feed until the starlings leave your yard and go elsewhere. Especially this time of year, I guess, you don't want them to stay around and make nests at your place---rather they go down the road to the next feeder set-up! Oh, dear!

Are you sure your sparrows are House Sparrows? At first I thought I was overrun by them, however on closer inspection I figured out that many were of our native species and not the inhospitable ones...There are several links on DG that talk about the 'grey birds various' that helped me figure out what was what (although you may very well be past this learning curve.)

Thanks again for the links. t.

I have bluebirds all winter...they use the nest boxes for shelter. I have seen as many as 9 come out of one box on a winter morning.

My bluebirds are checking out the boxes right now and staking claims...if sparrows start to nest, I'll open the box and remove the nest...sooner or later they will give up. none of them will actually build nests for a little bit...but they are sure checking things out and getting ready.

Heard a Meadowlark last week...that's a sure sign that spring is close here.

As far as I'm concerned, starlings are rats with wings.

Tabasco--
I'm not 100% sure about the house sparrows. I'm 90% sure about 2 males, but not at all on the females. Here in st. louis we have eurasion sparrows too, they are introduced but don't bother any other birds. If I put up a house and sparrows become a problem and I resort to traps, I would want someone to identify the birds for me.

Glad those links worked for you, I hope you get some bluebirds this year!

Melody--
I agree about the flying rats. At first I didn't mind them, but now the starlings are comming in larger and larger flocks--last count was at least 15, most of them fighting over the suet feeder and other birds.

I may try rubbing suet on a tree to see if the woodpeckers can eat it. I'm hoping the starlings can't cling to the tree. Either that or no more suet for anyone :(

EEEEEErrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......starlings.

I can only comfort myself by rationalizing that I am apparently God's instrument to feed these mean little things. Maybe if I try very hard, I can convince myself that they're cute :)

I found it helpful to put the suet and general mix birdseed in the backyard and the thistle out front. The starlings hardly ever show up in the frontyard; they're too busy fighting over the suet out back. The house finches eat their thistle seed in peace :)

Also, I wanted to pass along this IMPORTANT INFORMATION regarding birdhouses:

"There is no such thing as peaceful coexistance between house sparrows and bluebirds, chickadees, tree swallows, or house wrens. If house swallows are successful in catching a female songbird in a nest box with its young, it will kill the whole family by pecking their skulls open.

House sparrows can enter any birdhouse with an entry hole of 1-1/4" diameter or greater. European starlings can enter any entrance hole larger than 1-1/2" diameter...

...The entrance hole for a wren house should be 1" diameter. The 1-1/8" hole size allows entrance for chickadees, but not house sparrows."

The same source recommends "humanely dispatching" both starlings and house sparrows.

I suppose starlings and house sparrows are God's creatures, too, but they sure are mean little things! :)

hugahosta;

I agree completely. They are God's creatures, however He put them in europe, man unwisely let them loose over here ;-) I know they can't help being what they are but I am almost ready to buy starling traps and maybe sparrow traps, if I can find someone who will positively ID the birds. I also read that some raptor rehab centers take the trapped birds to feed the raptors, so that would ge helping 2 native species. However, if the starlings leave after the suet is gone, hopefully problem solved.

I've read even stronger quotes about HOSP's:

QUESTION: "I was disappointed to read a bluebirding article that encouraged trapping and destroying house sparrows. As a new birder, I feel it is our duty to help conserve and manage all wildlife, and it is hypocritical to destroy those species which we do not like. Their place in nature is also part of the food chain and let us not forget that nature is very, very cruel!"

REPLY: "I felt the same as you when I first began bluebirding about 10 years ago. I have a website where I have recounted my experiences and have attempted to deal with this issue in a way that I hope will help beginners understand."

"In your own words about sparrows having a place in the food chain... consider this...I don't hold any "grudges" against hawks, crows, bluejays, etc., if they happen to take one one of "my" bluebirds. This is nature in action and part of the food chain as you state. House sparrows on the other hand, do not kill for food and their actions are not consistant to nature's food chain. I can't say for sure, but it appears sparrows kill for no other reason than to continue their quest to take over the (bird) world."

Bluebirds - How to Book, Fred Comstock: "The only good house sparrow is a dead sparrow." Mr. Comstock suggests trapping and shooting.
Enjoying Bluebirds More, by Julie Zickefoose: "Trap the adult sparrow if you can. ...Unprotected by law, house sparrows may be destroyed or relocated miles away."
Bluebirds, How to Attract & Raise Bluebirds, Tina & Curtis Dew: "Both sparrow nests and eggs, or young, should be destroyed in every case that they are found. ... Sometimes the sparrow is so persistent that trapping is the only way to eliminate them."
Bluebird Trails, A Guide to Success, Dorene Scriven: "Eradication is the only solution that works! And constant eradication may be necessary over several years before all sparrow threats are taken care of. It is essential to trap and destroy the male house sparrow, even though it is far easier to catch the female." And "Trapping should continue all year, not just on the bluebird trail."
Bluebirds Forever, Connie Toops: "Simply releasing house sparrows somewhere else may result in their invasion of other bluebird habitat. The quickest way to dispatch house sparrows is to wring their necks."
Bring Back the Bluebird, Andrew Troyer: "They are as undesirable as a mouse in your house. When trapped do not take them miles down the road to be released. This is no different than throwing your garbage over the fence onto your neighbor's property. A very humane way to eliminate them is to put them into a plastic bag and hold it to a car exhaust."

Wow!
I don't have the stomach to wring a bird's neck, however I could transport them to have them humanely dispatched if necessary. It's a shame that this has to be done due to something humans caused, even though they did it unknowingly at the time.

Now I have to figure out how to put up a house in my yard for chickadees (where I live I likely won't get bluebirds) in such a way that I can get to it and remove a sparrow nest if necessary.

Maureen

Not to offend- but I think non-native species should be killed off if they are causing problems.
I know it isnt their fault they landed here- but they do not belong and some cause alot of major problems with our natives. :-( Sames true for any country.

Don't let BB's fool you! They are mean as spit too! LOL

There are some cute stories about pet Starlings online. Makes some good reading. They really are pretty birds- kind of like they are covered in jewels.

We got lucky- our neighbours put in a 5 acre pasture with horses- lots of BB's! Were hoping to get some houses up soon so they stick around.

Starlings are very smart birds- maybe if you continue to scare them off-maybe even shoot some while the others watch- they MIGHT go away from your feeders. It's worth a shot anyway.

You're right crimsontsavo .. The BB's have somewhat of a relatively strong 'survival' nature to them .. but from what I've been privy to, in far too many times - - is that the BB's don't stand much chance at all, when they're very much far outnumbered by the offending and overbearing nay-stees!!

The house sparrows, the starlings, and the cow birds .. are the equivalent 'Mafia' .. in the bird world, here in the USA !

- Magpye

LOL- Mafia!
I can just see their little machine guns and big black cars, hehe.

LOL- Mafia!
I can just see their little machine guns and big black cars, hehe.

ROFL....That's a great image....and mafia sounds like a good description from what I've read too.

I also read in a UK bird forum that the English sparrow, which is our house sparrow, is on the decline in it's native land! I wish we could ship them over there!

"starts shipping". LOL- poor little buggers. Now I feel bad.
"hides the bodies".

My parents used to trap the house sparrows and would dispose of them by drowning (they had a purple martin house in the back yard and often found martin eggs and young on the ground).

mlm01, you won't have starling nests in your chickadee house if you only make the entrance hole 1 and 1/8" diameter. The house sparrows and starlings won't fit and the little chickadees will be safe inside :)