Big Pot Planting Advice Wanted

Hello again;

I have a 5 gallon Serviceberry ordered for this spring which I plan to pot in a half whiskey barrel on my back deck as part of my overall birdscaping plan. This is a result from the help I got from you all at; http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/473898/ I'm asking anyone with any experience with this type of thing for any advice or tips which might be helpful.

One basic question I have is whether to knock off as much of the original dirt ball as possible since this plant was grown to go in the ground and I will be planting it in a soilless mixture consisting primarily of MG container mix. Any advice on this and if and how I should amend the MG mix?

I chose the half whiskey barrel because it was an attractive, economical ($14 at HD) and large enough container. Does anyone know the life expectancy of these? Should I apply some Thompson Water sealer or a preservative?

I plan to drill 5 or more 3/8 inch holes in the bottom and cover the inside bottom with a full circle of fine wire screening. I then plan to add 8-10 inches of mix in the bottom prior to placing the root system inside.

I'm planning to use the Osmocote container version as the primary fertilizer. Also. I plan to give it a one time dose of root stimulator with the initial watering. Any advice on supplementing the Osmocote? I will top off the "soil" with mulch and I will monitor it daily with my moisture gauge to make sure it stays properly watered.

Feel free to comment on any aspect of this project. I will value any suggestions or advice.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave,

My experience with whiskey barrels took place in zone 9b. I had problems with some sort of black fungus that grew on the inside of the barrel. Although it didn't seem to harm the plant growing in the barrel, I noticed that the fungus shortened the life of the barrel. My barrels lasted about 5 years. I thought barrels were the great cheap way to go until I had to repot the dwarf lime tree I had in one of the barrels. Plastic and fiberglass pots just don't have the same shape as barrels. I had to shave a good part of the lower end of the rootball.

Living in Zone 9b, I didn't have to worry about frozen rootballs. Since you do, wood has better insulation qualities that either plastic or fiberglass. Painting the inside of the barrels would help prolong the life of the barrel. Don't use anything with creosote or chemical preservatives. Tree sealer or roofing asphalt works. I'd go with the tree sealer.

If the serviceberry is dormant when you get it, carefully wash as much of the heavy soil as possible and replant in the barrel so that the trunk is at the same level as it was originally. I've spoken with a number of nurserymen who use top soil mixed into the soiless mixture, but I've never felt comfortable with that. Soiless mixtures are usually complete. Is there a reason why you want to amend the mixture?

Osmocote, especially the one that contains micronutrients, is also complete and should need no more additives.

Drainage could be a problem. For a planter that size, the holes are way too small. It would be very easy to overwater because drainage would be very slow. Your 5 holes should be about an inch in diameter. I've done much of my gardening in pots because our property had so much cement around the house and I've learned at lot of lessons the hard way. I had 10 citrus trees and miniature apple trees in 24 and 30 inch pots as well as several whiskey barrels with a variety of plants and trees. I also had dozens of pots in varying sizes.

The use of screening is a good idea. I found a screen called pet screening at Home Depot. It's made of heavier plastic. Placing a few pieces of pot chard over the holes and wire also helps drainage. With a "Do not overwater" warning for the serviceberry,you want large drainage holes.

BettyDee

Thanks a lot, BettyDee;

All that kind of experienced advice is very hard to come by and I appreciate it very much. It's people like you that make DG the wonderful resource it is. After I reflect on your post, I may have other questions for you so please keep a watch on this thread if you will.

Regards,
Dave

BettyDee;

My Serviceberry will likely not be dormant as I will get it in March standing 3 to 4 feet tall in a 5 gallon container. Is it still advisable to "clean off" as much of the heavy soil on the root ball as possible prior to planting in the MG mix? Put another way, should I make it a bare root planting?

I'd rather not amend the MG mix nor supplement the Osmocote but if a "pro" like you had told me to I would. I'm glad you said leave well enough alone regarding this.

I have and will plan to use tree sealer on the inside of the barrel. I consider that an especially important tip from you. I will gladly drill one inch holes as you suggested and could even make more than five. What's your thought on maybe adding more? Since good drainage is so critical, perhaps I should drill more than five. What do you think?

Since this will be sitting on my new deck is there a "saucer" or something you could think of that I could place the barrel on to catch any drainage? I want to preserve the deck as well as the barrel.

BTW, what is "pot chard"? I ran a quick Google and found nothing.

These are just a few quick reaction thoughts for now.

Thanks, in advance, for sharing your valuable experience with me.

Dave

BettyDee;

I will plan to apply one or two coats of Thompson Water Sealer to the outside in addition to the tree sealer to the inside of the whiskey barrel.

I'm thinking of just laying a thick plastic sheet underneath the barrel with holes punched in the plastic where water can drain down through the cracks in the new deck planking.

I'm assuming that by pot chard you mean just a broken piece of pot that would form a cover over the screened one inch holes to hold the dirt away from having direct contact and allow for better draining. If so, I could rig something that could do that job. Is that what you meant?

Please comment on this, if you will, as well as the foregoing post.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave,
I think she was talking about pot shards, broken pieces of pots that cover the holes in your barrel. I also like to put a piece of landscape cloth over the bottom of the pot. I just feel like I get better coverage of all the holes with it than with shards or rocks.
If you don't use a saucer, or elevate the barrel slightly just so the lower rim doesn't contact the deck, you'll end up with a ring of mineral deposits on your deck.
Good luck. I'm inspired to think of similar projects for some of the bird-magnets I'm getting next month.
Michele

Thanks, Michele;

I like the landscape cloth idea. I think I'll go with it Do you put in a cirlcle of screening underneath it, as well? Or does the cloth do the whole job for you?

I'm not sure how well my black plastic idea with strategically placed holes between the planking will work protecting the deck but it's the only thing I can think of since I don't think "saucers" get made that big. Do you have any thougths on this?

Thanks,
Dave

The container will mark your deck anywhere it touches it...it's just a fact of life. It will hold absorbed moisture and the botom rim will turn your deck anywhere it touches it. Drain holes placed over the openings in your deck boards will help a little, but won't stop it. Air has to get under all points to keep the area dry.

Most folks put little 'feet' under the rims of their pots to keep them raised somewhat. Whether it's pieces of wood or little tiles, anything to raise the surface just a touch....but where they sit, your deck will turn. You'll have small dark spots instead of a large ring. A saucer or piece of plastic will just hold moisture next to the deck and turn dark too. Not from your water, but from natural rainwater and condensation.

My neighbors have whiskey barrels in their yard that are over 10 years old.....he has babied them and coddled them and they still look ok...they are held together with a prayer though and he's said for the last 4 or 5 years he needs to replace them.I'm sure the bottoms are rotted away, but these are sitting on the ground, so you can't tell. He treats them with his used motor oil from his cars...not sure as to the environmental aspects of this, but it doesn't seem to affect his plants at all...He just paints the outsides with it...nothing on the inside.

As for the drain...a container plant, by nature will take more water than the same plant in the ground. The barrel will lose water through the natural eveporation through the wood....I wouldn't worry much about too few or small drain holes....getting rid of water won't be an issue with this container.

Great to hear from you melody,

I can see that your knowledge base is not simply limited to cameras, etc.

Let me pick your brain on a couple things... Since I want the wood to age naturally, wouldn't the water sealer be good enough for the outside vs paint?

If you were me and wanted to protect a new expensive deck what creative thoughts might you have as possible solutions? Remember, I've already seen how "creative" you can be.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave i agree with Melody about the wood containers taking more water and shouldn't be a over watering problem. However I have never used whiskey barrels. Have used lots of other large planters. There is a product on the market that i have used, that are made specifically for use under large container to help prevent stains. The ones I have are called Down Under plant stands. I bought them several years ago at a Home & Garden show so don't know where they are available but should be able to locate them on Google. Mine are about 12" in diameter and can be trimmed to make smaller. They work very well on my Trex deck. I will post a photo. Donna

Here is a photo of the Down Under plant stands. Donna

Thanks Donna;

That's the kind of brainstorming I was hoping for and I appreciate the pic very much.

I'll start googling.

Thanks again,
Dave

News Update:

I no longer have a deck stain problem. I decided to carefully put it where it can and will stay for as long as I live here. When and if I sell, it's the new owner's problem if he or she doesn't care for my beautiful birdscaping whiskey barrel Serviceberry.

Dave

I would seal with the water sealer as opposed to other substances...I've kinda avoided the issue with my neighbor, as he does not use the oil very often or very much of it, but it still bothers me somewhat.

The water sealer is petroleum based also, but it's designed for the purpose you are using it for.

Paint will eventually chip and flake and you'll have a mess...I'd stay natural.

I like the idea of putting your barrel in another place. It could prove to be frustrating keeping the area around it clean and dry.

Something that you might want to consider...fruit trees require micronuitrients to properly produce a crop. Beneficial bacteria that produce some of these, need a 'host' substance to live properly in the soil. A soilless mix is sterile and it may take some time for enough of it to break down to the point that it will support these little critters.

I would consider adding a bag of commercial compost to your MG mix. It will get you off to a more balanced start with your tree.

Fruit trees are a different type of container plant...not like the annuals and occasional daylilies or coneflowers. It is a lot like baking a cake...all of your ingredients need to be there in the correct amounts. You still may get cake in the end, but by following the proper 'recipe' your 'cake' (serviceberries) will produce a much better end result.

Veggies and fruits are my main interests, and I've experimented with many varieties in countless ways. They will do nicely in containers if given the closest conditions to what they would experience if living in the ground. I've always found that the addition of humus or compost will make a big difference in the eventual crop production of container grown edibles.

melody;

Thanks, again. I'm still wondering how much of the original dirt ball I shoud wash off before planting the Serviceberry in the pot since that original dirt ball is not the RX I need or want for the container mix. Would you suggest that I go so far as to make it look like a bare root planting? There will be a lot that "unwanted" dirt because it's arriving in a five gallon container.

I really need your help on this key question...it's the most important unknown I have.

Thanks,
Dave

It will depend if the tree arrives fully dormant, or if it has leaves....or if it's somewhere in between, say with swelled buds.

If your tree is dormant, you can get rid of a good portion of your dirt without any harm to it. If it has broken dormancy and has leaves at all, I'd personally leave more of the original ball. Washing the dirt off is a splendid idea. A firm, but gentle stream will do the trick fine.

When a tree breaks dormancy, the tiny feeder roots come alive and are easily damaged. If it is dormant, it is not using them as much, or actively taking up water and nuitrients to support the leafy top.

You probably won't kill your tree regardless, they are quite forgiving , but you may have a less than optimum year of growth, as it will have to repair itself before continuing to grow.

Hope this helps.

It sure does and I've made a note to keep you personally infromed on my step by step progress regarding this project. So congratulations and condolences -- since you'll be be bothered by me (again) by DG email .

Hopefully, you'll feel the respect I'm showing you will outweigh the "bother".

I simply need your ongoing experienced help after I dive into this project which means so much to me. I'll wait 'til I have pics to include with each DG email to enable you to fullly see and comment on what I'm doing. That might even include a quick pic of the plant before any final decision is made regarding the root ball, for instance.

Thanks,
Dave

That would be great. I'll help where I can...and I can find answers if I'm not sure.

Mainly, the best advice I can give right now is do this as early in the spring as you can possibly do so.

You're in South Bend, so it's a whole different situation than I've got...I'd be getting mine done right now if I were doing this. Some of our trees already have swelled buds and the Henbit weed is starting to come alive and bloom.

I'm guessing that you'll have the same situation about the middle to end of March. Don't wait till flower planting time to do this....do you have a ship date on your tree? Can you request one? Late winter is the best time for planting fruit trees...some of our garden centers already have stock.

If you can get your tree settled in and in place before warm weather arrives, you'll have the best chance for success...just make sure that you won't have a lot of nights below say....low 20's. A night or two in a row won't hurt...but temps need to stay above that before you plant trees.

edited to say I just saw where you were getting your tree in March...that's good...It will probably be semi dormant....I'd wash off a good portion of the soil if there were no leaves...send me a picture if you like when it gets to you and we'll decide.

This message was edited Feb 2, 2005 7:12 PM

I can get the Serviceberry any time but my usual supplier (like a HD) says the barrels won't be in 'til mid March or possibly even later. I'll be doing some extensive phone shopping tomorrrow to see if I can expidite the barrels because I want to be ready to go as soon as the weather is right. That would likely be around mid March and I don't want to delayed by relying on just one vendor for the barrel to be available. I will buy the first 1/2 barrel I find asap just so I can get rid of that silly suspense.

I'll start my DG email thread to you when I have the pics I want since that will save you time and allow you to judge things for yourself.

Thanks again,
Dave

Dave,

Melody has covered the rootball issue very well so I don't need to. I agree that getting the serviceberrry planted as soon as possible is best. Here in Zone 8b, the recommended planting time for trees is October followed by January. Planting in the fall allows the roots to get established before new growth starts. This recommendation is for potted trees. Bare root trees should ideally be planted in January when they are fully dormant. Do you know whether the serviceberry will actually be in the 5 gallon container? Or will it be an out of pot 5 gallon sized plant? The former will have a better developed root system. You might consider providing some protection from drying winds during hot windy days this summer and being extra careful about watering until it gets established.

But I have to disagree about the drainage holes. I've had some trees, shrubs and vines as well as annuals and perennials. You can overwater. Since you are sealing the inside of the barrel, you won't have much water evaporating through the oak. Then over time water will leak in between the staves expanding the wood so you won't get much water leaking out that way.

May I ask why you are also sealing the outside of the barrel as well? No matter how well the barrel is coated with sealant or Thompson's Water Sealer, there is bound to be some water leaking into the wood. The sealer would prevent the wood from drying quickly.

Out of curiosity, where did you decide to put the barrel?

BettyDee

bettydee;

First thanks for all your continuing help!

When I said "I decided to carefully put it where it can and will stay for as long as I live here" I meant the best location on the deck. The problem for any new owner will be refinishing that part of the deck if they decide to ever move or eliminate it. That will be their decision and their problem, not mine. I will "protect" the deck the best I can but any worry about what might happen is now forever out of my mind.

The plant is in and has been grown in a 5 gallon container. The only reason I'm using Thompson water sealer on the outside is cosmetic. I want the wood to age well.

When it comes to watering, I feel confident since I've had great success with a highly accurate and dependable soil moisture gauge. I only do what it tells me for all my plants and that, of course, varies with the plant.

Nevertheless, I appreciate and value your comments so thanks again.

Dave

Boy Dave, you're getting quite a bit of help, here. Thanks for starting the thread. There are a few things here I've learned and am actually surprised by (the whole rootball cleaning/potting soil issue for a native tree, for instance. I never would have thought that potting soil and MG would support a tree for more than a couple of years without leaving eventually harmful salts in the soil.) I would agree with the point about adding compost (and even some worm castings) to get off on the right foot and not shock the tree by such a drastic change in it's environment, even if it is dormant when you get it. I'd also add compost every year to keep beneficials in that soil.

As for the landscape cloth, I use it by itself, just cutting a piece that roughly fits the bottom of the barrel. Then pour in the first addition of soil.

Thanks mickgene;

The help may be due in part to what my mamma taught me - thank anyone who takes time out of their day to try to help you.

Practical experience is priceless - thanks for sharing yours.

Dave

I was going to this forum to post a question about whiskey barrels, too :) Did I understand correctly, dw, that you found out you won't be able to get them until March?? That's a major negative for my plans, then. I was wanting to start annual seeds outdoors in a few asap. Won't be able to if I can't even buy the barrels! LOL.

Also, wanted to relay that I purchased a Serviceberry last year and planted it in my backyard. Amelanchier grandiflora 'Autumn Brilliance'. Just thought I'd note that I chose this plant specifically because the area was POORLY draining and multiple references specified that this serviceberry tolerated poorly draining sites particularly well. That said, of course poor drainage is not our goal. LOL! I just thought I'd pass along that this serviceberry will tolerate less-than-ideal drainage conditions.

Thanks hugahosta;

Good News! I found that Lowe's had the genuine 1/2 barrel used by Jack Daniel's - the real deal in stock for only $18. On top of that I just got a $10 off coupon in the mail to start shopping the store. What a deal...$8!

Lowe's has a special contract deal with Jack Daniel's and buys them by the truckload because they use them in the stores for thing like storing lime, etc.

Good to hear about the hardiness of the Serviceberry. 'Autumn Brilliance' is drop dead beautiful in the fall.

Dave

I posted a pic of my little plant in your original Seviceberry thread. Sorry the pic is so big, I'll see if I can post a better one here. Thanks for the info on Lowe's. Good deal!!! Now off to ask a question about seeds in a barrel this size!

P.S. Oh well, couldn't find a great pic. Here's one that gives you an idea of its size and location, though. Got it at a local nursery. Also bought it for birdies :) We're such a new development, it's a major deal if even one songbird shows up! Trying to attract the "wildlife" into this bulldozer-laden neighborhood is going to be quite a challenge! LOL :)

I answered your post on my other thread and DL that pic and just DL this one. I'm in a new house in a city neighborhood largely devoid of any decent bird habitat. I figure it will take total birdscaping of my back yard (which I'll do this spring) and maybe a year or two to get close to what most DG ers already enjoy.

"Challenge" hardly covers it. Tell you what...Start a thread on our mutual problem and I promise I'll be a frequent poster and who knows maybe we're not alone.

Just one tip or two would make it worthwhile. I'm not very DG dependent, so email me with a "heads up" if you start a thread like this.

"DG dependent"....LOL....note the time on my post!!! LOL :) I'm up planning out my beds for the spring and DG is just sitting here planning along with me :) "DG dependent......" LOL ;)

By the way, there are lots of posts on attracting birdies on DG. You can search for particular birds or just check out a few related forums :) Take a look at the Wildlife Forum, for instance.

Also, since December, I've had 2 pair of house finches frequenting my front yard! I'm soooo excited to have anything besides starlings :) And a pair of pigeons have also been around lately. LOL -- you know it's bad when you're excited about pigeons!

Take care,
Hugs :)

This post is to let you know that future ones will be forthcoming documenting my adventuresome story of trying to follow all your advice given me on this thread. This picture post is the first installment of that story.

I'm a believer that we all have to face the cold hard realities of life and this first picture documents a cold hard fact that I learned the hard way. You can see the barrels (yes plural) sitting in the back seat of my car. Why? I discovered on getting them home that they weighed 80 pounds apiece and I was waiting on my strong young nephew to come over and get them out for me.

So, gals, if you decide to go for a whiskey barrel project, make sure that DH's hernia insurance is paid up because this is not your typical Tupperware container.

As I said, more to come later on the life and adventures of a newbie wrestling with his first container gardening project. I wish I could say that it's a pleasure being here but the story is still out on that subject.

dwd. I have never tried to grow anything in a 1/2 whiskey barrel, so am interested in your experiences. I didn't realize they were so heavy. Good luck with your Service, June, berry shrub. I thought of you today when pruning my native Service berry, I dug it up from a spot in my other place where the birds had planted it. That was 10 years ago and it was maybe 24", I moved it here for the birds, knowing they love the fruits and that I likely would not eat many. It is made up now of more than 20 trunks from 1/2" to ones about 3". Have to prune some trunks out as that is just too many. I probably eat 5 or 6 a year and they are ripe!!!!!!!!!!!! Donna

Fun facts to know and tell- the tree is called 'Serviceberry' because up in the mountains, it blooms about the same time as the soil thaws- when they could dig graves and hold funeral services for those who died during the winter. Another species of Amalanchier is called 'Shadbush' because it blooms when the shad come up the rivers to spawn.

At least that's what they taught me in Woody Plants class-

Susan K

Update #2

Thanks to the musclepower of my Nephew, both barrels are now where they belong. In
addition to being more massive and heavy than I thought, they were more "charcoaled" inside. I guess setting fire to that magnificent white oak is necessary to bring out the full flavor and aroma of the whiskey. I believe this barrel was used only once by Jack Daniel's
but the man at Lowe's wasn't certain. Lowe's regular price for these is $18 each, however, I was lucky enough to have gotten a $10 discount card in the mail just days prior. I can't remember bringing home more (in more ways than one!) for $25.38.

These two pictures give you the first full view of the half barrels and also the drain holes that I put in yesterday. After carefully considering all the input from this thread, I decided to drill five 1 inch drain holes in the bottom as you can see. The bottom will be lined with wire screening, Considering the charcoaling on inside and the natural aging of the exterior, I've decided leave the barrels as is since white oak can last forever. It could be that attempting some cosmetic restoration of the exterior is some way such as on the metal straps for instance might be worthwhile. I'm open to any suggestions out there. As a man living alone, I'm lacking any feminine point of view on a question like this and because of that I sometimes find I've missed out on something that would have actually pleased me.

I've also currently got my hands full completing the construction of a birdbath which is a vital and basic necessity for any successful birdscaping which I'm attempting and the only reason I'm in this Forum with this thread. I usually hang out in Brugs (I'm a newbie), Camera Talk and Computer Talk.

More later.

Oooooh! Those are beautiful, dw!!!!! I love the look of those :)

Gosh, I didn't know you could grow something in a whiskey barrel and leave it out to survive the winter. This gives me hope for a barrel or two on my deck as well.

Update #3
Here are some items I have lined up for my scheduled mid March planting.

The top pic shows what I've collected for potting day and the care thereafter. First, let me talk about the MG (shown is the 6 qt. version tho I've bought 32 qt bags). After studying the input on this thread and researching it, I found that I couldn't trust the "new and improved" Moisture Control MG mix to maintain proper drainage after six months or a year. Why gamble with a new product when you know the old one does the job? It's like leaving a good wife of 20 years for a sweet young thing. You might say that's not exactly analogous but there's a sizable grain of truth in it.

The folded piece of Visquine shown will be put down on the deck and front porch floor where the barrels will be placed with slits or holes cut so any drainage will go between the planks. Whatever I do to protect the flooring, refinishing will be necessary whenever the barrel is moved or eliminated. But that is only a possible new owner's problem not mine since I know where I want the barrels and I'll never move them.

Not shown are the much larger pieces of this heavy 4 mil thick Visquine that I will use as protective covers when necessary since I intend to plant several weeks ahead of time (at some risk) of when conventional wisdom dictates in order to help insure that the Serviceberries will have a better chance to fruit this year. At age 66, I don't have summers to waste. Also, by starting earlier I will be more certain that the plants are dormant enough that I can gently hose off as much of the unwanted heavy garden soil as possible from the root ball and may even be able to plant them bare root which is my preference. However, what will not come off with a gentle stream of water will stay on the root ball in that I won't get in it and start tearing things apart with my hands.

Also in the top picture can be seen the folded screening that will go in the bottom of the barrels and a 1 lb. bottle of Osmocote (I have 10 pound bags) that I will use. I will thoroughly mix in the 8 TLBS of Osmocote into the 55 quarts of regular MG as it's poured into the barrel. I'll be using a 4-10-3 root stimulator in addition and not depending solely on MG and Osmocote to provide the high initial nutrient boost that the Serviceberries will need to get the good, quick start I want them to have. All hand watering will include this 4-10-3 until I can see that the plants are established.

The middle picture deals with something else missing in my yard -- the requisite constant water supply the birds need. This was an item I reclaimed from the previous owner's junk pile last April just before it was to be picked up and taken to the dump. It's a pedestal from the remains of an abandoned outdoor grill which I have in the sink to get all the rust off. The bottom picture is the 16" terra cotta bowl I'm sealing with acrylic spray and will later (cleverly?) mount. I can hardly wait to see how I figure that out.

Since I realize that I'm wandering off topic, I've decided not to post again until after the potting is completed and only then if I feel I have some useful and practical specifics to share that are relevant to this Forum topic - Container Gardening.

Wow, DW!!! Sounds like a plan :) Can't wait to follow this thread & see the tree this summer :)

dwl, sounds like you have everytthing pretty much under control. I bet your Service Berry will grow like mad. Will be waiting to see how your bird waterer fixture turns out. Good Luck, DonnaS

Thanks gals! I can certainly use some luck.

I just wanted to say that I haven''t forgotten about my "final report" to all of you who helped me on this thread and my previous one.

Unusual cold and heavy snow in northern Indiana has delayed my scheduled (and hoped for) mid March potting date by two or three weeks.

Later,
Dave

Dave, sorry about your bad weather. We are having the opposite. Warmer than normal and much drier. This has been the driest Feb. since I was born and that was a long time ago. I would like to irrigate my whole yard but am holding off in the hope that we may get a little rain this week. sure wish we could trade. DonnaS