Striving for a MidWestern version of Doss' Eden

And let's add too much property with too many problems to get done in less than 5 years - and that's pushing it. And with "noxious" weeds, the problem is keeping them away, not just getting rid of them which is another full-time project alone. You do have your hands full. And you are on the steep part of the learning curve. But here you are being brave enough to stick your neck out and step into this project full steam ahead! It takes real courage.

And I disagree with you about how good your "eye" is. When I said that the bed needed to be wider I wasn't talking about the walk by the Immortal Iris (which is beautiful), I was talking about the bed against the house that you said was too narrow. That bed by the walk where you have the "failed" bearded iris but the fabulous daffodils is lovely and I loved the two free form beds you dug together. I'm ALWAYS redoing things. It never ends. Even now, I'm still working at it. And there have been lots of mistakes in the past. Remember, I've been working on my garden for over 30 years and I just ripped it all out in 2003 and put it back in. The drainage, irrigation, paving, retaining walls were all shot. So I had to. But it was an opportunity in the end. If there were one place that you wanted to get done most of all, which part of the garden would it be? Then we will go onto part two! Would you like a blue (or red, white.....) garden area, or a place for roses, a cutting garden? It sounds like your shady place or your creek could be a sanctuary. Would you like an area that is different kinds and colors of evergreens? I love "A gardener's diary". Do you watch it? I don't know if it's on in your area, but I've been inspired a lot by it. It's on HGTV.

Another thing is that you might consider buying 10 of something and see how it works out before you buy 100 of it. I've found that cultivars can be really funny about different places to grow. I have 10 Harvest of Memory and they are placed at different areas of my little yard and they all bloom at different times and with different rebloom intensity. Immortality doesn't do very well for me at all. So I tend to get just a few and see how they do. Or I'll plant a bed with a lot of different things and see what survives. Then during the year, I'll see where the color needs perking up and I'll go to the nursery and see what's blooming, and stick it into the bed. Like being a painter, you put in the structure and then the details. You have a great start around the house. It must be really nice to sit out there.

I wish I had more pictures of the wreckage, but I took them with polariods. Here is the pool decking ripped apart and the beds above emptied. I'll show you the revived beds later with the pool redone. (speaking of dwindling funds!)

Equalibrium,
I can take some photo's in the spring,down by my Mom's accross the street in the woods are two whole hillsides covered in ferns.3 acres of them,about that.Jody

Hi Jody, I’d love to see acres of ferns at your Mom’s place! Please post it later on this year. I’d love to see ferns blanketing my ground here underneath the oaks and hickories ;) I am planting 3’s of different ferns to see what may take off and naturalize. Hopefully a few species will make it.

Hi Doss, I just got off the phone with a girlfriend of mine who is a member here at DG with me and we were talking about you picking up some ideas that completely eluded me. She was reading the thread and we were laughing about my secret garden which she obviously saw before and after of in person. She just said that ignorance was bliss. That still gets me every time just thinking about that. Yes, too much property is a big problem particularly when you first start learning what’s growing on it and the consequences and like she said… I need to think about people who have a hundred acres who are trying to clean up. You feel so dirty and the race is on to “clean up” before it spreads. Seed banks are a definite problem which I learned all about first hand this spring but if I keep hitting the parent plants hard, the seed bank will go bye bye over the years. I have to admit that when we first moved in I was delusional and thought all the landscaping would be done inside of 2 years. Little did I know that it was going to take 5 years to clean up and another 5 after that to monitor and spot remove the seed bank without even addressing what ends up here from adjoining properties. A 10 year program is what they set in front of us with the blunt of alien species removal being in the first 5 years. Could be worse as I’ve got neighbors on 15 year programs. As far as courage… I have none. Trust me here. After the first few environmental engineers and biologists came out to the property my hands were dialing realtors to sell and get the HE-double hockey sticks out of here. My husband told me it wasn’t that bad and to hold off. Well, I held off for him and now I have too much sweat equity here to abandon ship now or I would have done it without batting an eyelash. What’s that old saying… If I only knew then what I knew now! I’m sticking with it now. I got a chainsaw for Mother’s Day from my husband, does this say it all? Here’s what is scarier… I know how to use it properly so buckthorn beware!

I don’t watch tv at all other than maybe a Discovery Kids program that a kid is watching while passing through to the kitchen. I do read a lot though and I do look at photos of what people do here at DG. That’s where I get the majority of my ideas- by seeing what is working for other people who post photos. I am a visual person and seeing everyone’s photos here helps tremendously. I will try to check up on that tv program you mentioned as we do get that channel. You asked, “If there were one place that you wanted to get done most of all, which part of the garden would it be”… It would be to enhance my iris beds. The native plants I have will take years to establish as most of what went in the ground was from seed or was a plug or pint size. That is why I like my iris and am so interested in companion planting where they are located and adding more. They are my splash of color over here and they cheer me up. They are not invasive so I can have as many as I want without having to worry about them spreading into natural areas or on to a neighbor’s property. The other area I should focus on is that one little pond because my husband specifically asked me to do something about it because it looked so ugly so needless to say the purchase of the 3 large tropical ferns was a major boo boo as was getting that pond in the ground so late in the year. He also doesn’t like the ac units sticking out like sore thumbs but all I can do now is start moving the plants out and away from where a hip wall and gate will eventually be built. Round robining back to my iris, my favorite plant. So there you go, the answer would be getting more iris in the ground as well as companion planting them to fill in holes while I plug along getting rid of the aliens. I have no problems what so ever leaving those raised planters I created sitting with no plant material for another year or so just as I have no problems leaving that creek area sit or any other area. If I don’t get to the septic field this year, there is always next. There’s only one of me and I have just recently become comfortable with not being able to get to it all at once.

You are right about buying only 10 as opposed to 100 of something. I lucked out on the Immortality iris as those love it here and re-bloomed for me a few times. Problem with them is keeping squirrels out of them. Actually, keeping squirrels out of everything around here is a big issue in the fall so I have learned to hold off planting bulbs for as long as possible until acorns are gone to avoid squirrels ripping plantings up. Well, that plan backfired on me this year and I have about 600 bulbs that didn’t get in the ground because of snow before Thanksgiving. Oh well, I’ll store them in soil in the garage and get them in the ground in spring. I still can’t figure out why none of the iris behind the daffodils came up? I dip them in a solution of hydrogen peroxide before I plant them. The rhizomes looked incredibly healthy to me and weren’t dried out at all so I don’t get it but won’t dwell on it. They were my first major iris casualties.

You described the thought process well when you mentioned adding from nurseries throughout the season after looking at the situation like a painter would. I need to do more of this and move away from the large orders of plant material. The problem is the costs of buying from local nurseries. When I order in bulk, I can get more material to cover the ground to stop the nasties that are being removed from getting a foothold again. Maybe I need to take a combination approach (less of the bulk orders & more local nursery plants) because the cost of plant materials is burying me trying to replace everything that is being removed.

Your pool I lust for. I love the brick work around it. I have to admit that if anything was ripped up here that I put in that I would have a heart attack right about now. Seeing that rebar alone in your photo was enough to make me cringe. A project like that for us right about now would mean a second mortgage let alone the stomach upset of seeing anything more torn up. They already told me that when they come back to get the PL that they will damage some of my plantings and that was disturbing enough. I really want a greenhouse which will be about 1/5th the cost of an in ground swimming pool. A greenhouse would mean I could grow more plants from seed to plant over here ;) !

Here is a photograph of another partial flower bed and it shows the cultured stone that was added over the top of the brick edgers to those narrow/shallow planters. All of the cultured stone is now in place but I don’t have a current photo showing it was finished but this is how the edge ended up looking on all of them.

You know... I am glad I posted photos. I was reluctant because what everyone else posts is so spectacular but now I don't feel so bad particularly when I hear that people are still working on the same property for 30 years and the design is still evolving and stuff is getting ripped up over at other people's houses and everybody else is dealing with "shrinking funds" syndrome too! I think what is hardest for me is realizing that it costs more to restore, create, and replace than it does to be able to just create and plant. Ugh, I could have bought 400 plugs for the cost of the chainsaw alone and I shudder to think what I could have bought if I didn't have to pay for a back hoe to come in and get the PL!

Funny how we are never satisfied, I'll post the pool now and you'll see the bricks are gone. It made me laugh til my sides hurt. Needless to say, I didn't do the rock work or the paving. The pool was 30 years old and needed new coping, plaster, decking. etc. I'm only posting this so you see that there is hope. It wasn't looking too great before we pulled everything up.

I love the frog in your planting area - and the welcome sign. Are those perennials? And how sweet of DH to buy you a chain saw! And romantic too. I'm glad that you've posted the pictures too. I have tremendous empathy for you. (What's the PL?)

Do you use pre-emergent?

I was wondering how much that huge crane was costing dropping that pond into place. I thought that those were supposed to be simple projects!

My squirrels only bother my really newly planted tubers so I go daily and replant a few. it doesn't seem to bother them. After they get good roots, it doesn't seem to be a problem. The squirrels have a lot of acorns and persimmons to eat right now. We do have to deal with gophers and moles. You might try growing them through screen door cloth until they get established (I know, another cost) But it could be reused.

I have heard that at house and garden shows, sometimes you can get the greenhouses on display for a song. How big a greenhouse do you want? I know, 5 acres!

So here's the pool last July. Your garden will get here. Do you have a bench by your finished pond? You need someplace that is finished and welcoming. I think that this may be the place. Then force yourself to sit there everyonce in awhile and forget what needs to get done. One problem I have is that I tend to see what is not done, rather than what is. This will make you laugh, but after seeing this picture, I painted that chair in the back dark brown. It bugged me. I have to remind myself, even here to just sit and take in the beauty of what is.

Oh Gaaaawd... that pool wouldn't be a second mortgage! It would be a second AND a third mortgage! That is gorgeous. I picked up something else though as I caught that tiering up there above that retaining wall. Nice, very nice and this is exactly why I prefer DG to tv. Long after the tv program is over and the image is gone from my mind... I can come back here and find the threads with the photos that had ideas in them for me. Funny, I didn't notice your chair other than to catch that it was furniture for another room in your garden. I thought it was somewhat reminiscent of the Swiss Family Robinson tree house the way it was tucked up there! I like your room up there.

I never thought of pursuing a greenhouse from a spent lawn and garden show. Interesting as I live about an hour and a half north of Chicago and they have the McCormick Center there that is home to one of the largest international shows there is. I have blown my wad of money for this year but I am hoping I remember to check into that in the future as maybe one would be within the reach of my budget for 2007 instead of '08 or after. I never would have thought of that. Thank you, again. If I could pick one up for half the price I could set it aside for later until we could pour footings and a concrete slab to size. This, I have to mention to my husband. The size I originally wanted was 18x28ish but that is beyond negotiable based on pricing and what I will be able to afford. I was quoted a sizeable chunk of cash for that size as it was and had anticipated a considerably lower dollar amount.

PL= Purple Loosestrife. The back hoe charge with an operator is going to be $140 an hour. That includes a nice certificate of insurance. Wonder if it will be suitable for framing to hang on my wall after they spend at least one whole day here digging out PL? Gag me but it has to be done before it gets into the larger wetlands to the north. It was being held at bay by buckthorn but we removed the buckthorn this past fall and that PL be lunging to get in that wetland. PL takes on a life of its own and is listed on the Fed's noxious weed hit list as well as the list for the state of IL. One single plant can set over a million seeds.

Those are native perennials in the little flower bed by the frog and the welcome sign as well as some salvia cultivars. I germinated them from seed whatever they are and there is too much snow on the ground for me to run out and check the little planting stake to see what I planted. I used to have a big box of plant tags and notes as well as receipts and lists and other miscellaneous landscape information but that nice romantic man who gave me the nice chain saw threw out my box when he determined it to be garbage when he was cleaning out HIS garage this past fall or I would have run out to the garage for the spiral notebook that used to keep all that type of information that used to be in my box and I would have been able to tell you what was planted in that spot. The spiral notebook as well as other folders and envelopes were in that box that had a skull and cross bones drawn on it. He claimed the box was dusty and only had garbage in it and that he checked before he pitched it. I was thinking along the lines of cyanide in his cheerios at the time but then that's just me.

I asked for the chainsaw as a hint that I needed some help around here. I got very little help but I did get the chainsaw as well as a box of Nestle's Turtles to gorge on. Guess that was a hint to go and work off the calories from the chocolates using the new chainsaw. Romantic???

To my husband's credit, he helped me clear the area where that big bog is going and he encouraged me to get the heavy equipment in here as well as 2 semis to haul off what they needed to dig out. Now, if he will just flip for the 60ml 20x50 epdm liner and delivery for that area! Hmmm, maybe I'll just use his check book for the purchase. I have not forgotten my box!

I use corn gluten meal as a pre-emergent but have to be careful where I use it as I have broadcast seed everywhere.

The huge crane thing was dropping a new pump into our well because I fried it out watering plants. The crane was free but the pump was $2,000 and couldn't be installed until we redrilled the well that I ran dry BEFORE I fried out the pump having no idea the well had been run dry as I continued to water plants with wild abandon using 3 garden hoses all at once for weeks on end. I will spare you on what the cost of re-drilling a 380' well is as you would want to throw up but we'll just call it my fully outfitted greenhouse, ok. That just happened to be the only pic I could find of that preform pond and there is a concrete bench that was added behind that preform this past October which isn't showing. It is the exact same bench that shows in the photo of the pond that is partially landscaped. Wish the well would have gone dry before I had contracted for all the brick work to be completed. Oh, sometimes you just have to laugh so you don't cry!

Squirrels, ugh. I saw a nice hinged planter posted by another DG member where she germinates her iris and about all I can say is it sure would be nice if I could have a whole house hinged planter to go over this entire property that excluded squirrels and deer. I had one little jerk squirrel try to drag off an entire bag of bulbs that I was planting last year and what they do to my iris beds is criminal. Little creeps but they are so cute.

I am making considerable headway over here but only other gardeners would be able to recognize it. Just another few years and it should start becoming obvious to people who don't garden.

You'll laugh but the terracing is done the way it is to get around county building codes. If the walls are less than two and a half feet high, no permit is needed. It also make nice planting beds.

How complicated things seem at your house, I wouldn't know what to do with a septic field or a pump either. And I know those things can be expensive. I believe you when you say mortgages worth. When our kids were younger and we had more expenses and less money the poor garden really suffered. But they are through school and on their own now and we've been able to create enough income that we are more comfortable. It used to be that the water heater blowing was a financial crisis - much less a well.

A land study had to be done here before the house was built - in the 50's. We keep having to redo the drainage though because we are halfway down a hill and the space under our house gets wet. Here's hoping that we won't have to do it for awhile - we better not have to.

And I know that the chair wasn't a big deal - that's why I pointed it out. I know that you are seeing everything that's wrong right now.

If you use chemical preemergent I believe that it only lasts for a short time. I certainly have to replace it fairly often around my grasses.. Just a thought.

And you're right, no one but a gardener would understand your struggle, but then no one but a gardener would take on a project like yours! LOL

So are you really pretty much on your own keeping the jungle tamed with your chain saw?

Do you use bonemeal on your bulbs? It could be a problem with attracting animals. You might use another fertilizer.

Nestles Turtles, huh? Is that your candy of choice?

Tee he, I wasn't an actual "gardener" until about 5 years ago. Was always actively involved in wildlife conservation though. My idea of gardening was to call a landscaper and pick plants for the yard from pretty pictures in his books and point to where I wanted them to go. Interestingly enough, I have always liked iris dating back to elementary school when I would draw pictures of them in a sketch book.

Am I really alone in this jungle. No. I am blessed to be in a position to hire professionals who come out and survey and conduct tests and make recommendations based on their findings. I also have one girlfriend who comes over who helps me with tedious tasks such as painting stumps as well as dragging out brush and identifying wildflower species present. She basically has forgotten more than I have ever known about prairies. I have a few personal friends who are natural resource management and conservation biology professionals who bail my happy rear end out on a regular basis. Add veteran restoration "chain gangs" that we hired to the mix also. Lots of hand holding going on here. Doss, we took down over two thousand buckthorn this year as well as hundreds of honeysuckles and the year before we took down about 1700. I can honestly say I downing as well as uprooted about 1000 myself this past year. Once one comes down, you must treat the stump then cut the trunk down to fireplace or habitat log sizes to drop to the ground. If the buckthorn is fruiting, it has to be dragged out of the woodland area to the burn pile. There were several weekends where my Dad (in his 70's) and two of my brothers would come over to help. They chainsawed, dragged out fruiting limbs, and burned the tops of the buckthorns for hours and hours on end and the piles would have been like nothing you have ever seen before with flames leaping up at least 2 stories high while more buckthorn was added. We use my old vegetable garden as a big burn pit and that vegetable garden will someday be home to a greenhouse. Chainsaws are marvelous but fire destroys the buckthorn berries that can come back to haunt you. There were many weekends that I worked by myself outside sun up to sun down coming in to take breaks and eat while checking the computer for a half hour or so several times throughout the day then going back out. You gotta have down time even if it is at a computer or just to run inside and start a load of laundry or make a snack for a kid.

We are over half way through the removal of terrestrial exotic invasives and we are ahead of schedule. Two more years and we slide into maintenance mode and can focus on cleaning up the wetlands.

Fortunately, I’m familiar with native plant species and know what I need. When it comes to other types of plants, I'm dead in the water and have to really check them out before I decide to purchase them but I'm becoming more familiar with non natives that aren't invasive snd am more comfortable with using them. I am not a native plant purist by any means but probably 90% of what goes in the ground here is indigenous to my region more so because I want what I buy to survive and thrive and be as maintenance free as possible in the long run. It has to be this way though as several communities around me geared up and dictated that nothing but native plants could be stuck in the ground by adding incredibly restrictive covenants and bylaws and my own neighborhood is looking as if it may go that route. It is not uncommon to see people at garden centers with lists from their HO associations and villages outlining which plants they can and cannot buy. Just 10 years ago this was unheard of. The Midwest/Great Lakes Region is a cesspool of exotic invasives rivaled only by Hawaii, Florida, and a few other states in my humble opinion. Illinois will protect the farmers and this must be respected.

As far as the iris beds, I add mushroom compost and fertilize with Alfalfa and Seaweed/Kelp when I can get my hands on it but this is only because my pH is testing perfectly fine. Occasionally I toss additional organic matter around them but that's about it. I am dealing with a lot of clay so I won't use chemical forms of nitrogen. Not a big deal as I love that corn gluten meal. The bone meal is not a good idea around here but I use it anyway because I wasn’t aware of alternatives. Do you have any suggestions on fertilizers?

We need a permit for everything around here. Getting around codes to be able to apply for that permit can be daunting. I feel for you there. We work with the folk and ask them how best to move forward and they pretty much outline our possibilities and we work within their guidelines. Interestingly enough they tell us if, when, and how to circumvent a code. This approach has proven to be invaluable as we made a mistake once and we weren't hung out to dry like others as it was truly a miscommunication. I already have my eye on a few possible spots for tiering and it is real close to a wetlands so let’s see what he has to say. I am thinking he may choose to view it as an “enhancement” if I use material from the site to create tiers and here’s where cultured stone comes into play as that stuff looks pretty close to the real thing. I am really liking your terracing so much so that I gotta find a place to integrate it into the landscape over here at some point in time. I am already visualizing a step down (your design goes up Swiss Family Robinson style) to an area where I could place a few chairs and a few planters and then another step down to an area that would have some sort of a water feature as well as a few specimen trees. The tiering may not be as intense as yours but I don’t have the grade you’ve got to play with.

In consideration of all the set backs, I am incredibly relieved to have come so far. So many poor choices on my behalf as well as unforeseen events. I finally feel as if I have breathing room to be able to work on more “pockets”. I feel relatively confident I have the mechanics of this property under control and know what needs to go and how best to make it disappear. I am falling short in pulling the “pockets” off though because I am not an artsy type person but more a copy cat craftsman. I really don’t seem to have enough ideas and don’t think along the same lines as you seasoned gardeners. I know what I like when I see it but realize all the “pockets” will eventually need to flow together and I am not seeing this happening. I don’t want to end up with a Monopoly Board/Patchwork Quilt gardening theme over here in the long run and don’t have the funds to hire a professional landscape architect. By the way, my husband told me to use your idea to take care of the ACs. He liked it better than me just planting hostas in the area which doesn’t hide them at this time of year. He also said the birdbath and the hostas drew his attention to the unsightly area rather than away from it and that he didn’t want to hurt my feelings by commenting before. He has a valid point. Maybe if I tell him I am crushed by this shocking revelation I can milk him for a box of Nestle's Turtles which are my favorite.

Here’s a pic of my former vegetable garden-

So, "non-gardener", what possessed you to take on this huge project?

I'll start at the bottom first - that doesn't look like much of a vegatable garden to me! teehee. No kidding. Here they would have our heads if we burned anything. It is even against code to put in a wood burning fireplace because of our air quality - which I have to admit has been much improved.

Your husband was sweet not to mention the birdbath and the Hosta's at the air conditioner - but then I tell my husband that if something is bothering him, he can always fix it. But I have to say Marty is a dear. With my illness he does much more than his share. Just be sure you paint the fence the same color as the house! A good vine might very well work, but I don't know if there are any evergreens one's there. Guess there's always honeysuckle (OUCH - I just couldn't help myself). It seems like the only thing you don't have is an overgrown Wisteria and a Poplar tree. My daughter has one on county property outside her yard and it is sending runners into her lawn. They say they don't have the money to take it down.

Why don't you draw a picture of the layout of your land, including where the house, orchard, creek, play area, pond, etc are, photo it and post it? It might be fun to play with some designs here. It's hard to get an overall view with words. Then we'll go from there. You are pretty good at pocketss - that pond was sure beautiful. It's lack of structure that's making you crazy I think, along with all the physical problems. We just have to get some pockets for you to work with. Then you'll be able to figure out some more big trees and larger structure plants. We'll go from there. You'll be building berms in the right place :->

Another thought, if I had a project of your scale, I think that I would get a landscape designer to help me. You might have to put off some of the other things, but I believe it would be worth it if you can find a good one.

It's good if you put natives in. Then you won't be draining that pump dry.

Be careful with terracing down. You can end up with a mud hole. You might want to have a wide garden path wind around a corner that you have bermed up behind a small terrace. You can back it up with some smaller evergreens in different sizes and colors so it looks like it belongs there. Or put a big shade tree there and shrubs under it on the non-rock side. Then you could use concrete blocks. You can still use your grass on your paths. Are you on a migration path for birds? You could build terracing up from your creek if allowed.

California only has a few invasives because of the strict agricultural enforcement. Pampass grass is fairly rampant in some places and Scotch Broom goes crazy in the hills near the ocean.

As far as feeing Iris, If you want bulb food, if you are willing to use chemical fertilizer, you can find a lot of alternatives at the nursery. Blooming Bulb is one I've used, but it comes from a mail order house and it's not worth it. If you look back at Margie's page about Iris beds, she says what she feeds them and I don't believe she used bonemeal..It's a varmit magnet. And epensive too.

Did you say 2,000 Nasty shrubs? The pile in the garden was just a little bit then.

I tackled this project because I was too stupid to run for the hills when I could have. Seriously, I had no idea how much was here and how hard the work would be. I can guarantee that if I knew what the costs were associated with cleaning up that I most assuredly would have put my foot down and said, "We're outa here". This property would have been listed and we would have moved on.

Rhamnus frangula or rather Glossy Buckthorn is definitely more of a shrub and it generally is in the 12'-15' range. I had at least a hundred of those and they were concentrated over to the north by the wetlands. The R. cathartica or Common Buckthorn is classified as a small tree in that it generally is in the 25' range rarely growing taller than 30'. The R. cathartica is most unfortunately what we had the vast majority of which is a real bummer as it often assumes a multi stem formation which is a son of a gun to take down. Both set seed well- too well. Bad news for you, buckthorn is in your neck of the woods too. Bad news for me is that I have two of those wisterias you were teasing me about and will need to deal with those sooner or later. Pssst, I can tell your daughter how to take care of that Poplar tree she has. We girdle trees all the time because it is too darn expensive to take them down. That should stop the evil runners the poor thing is dealing with. If she gets her hands on the right chemical, it theoretically should translocate into the runners from the cambium layer down and over and she might nail a few of those as a bonus. Good news is that the tree would be a great scag for birds and would come down naturally and provide much needed biomass for the soil.

Tee he he, my husband is a sweetheart but wasn't being sweet about not mentioning the AC units, husband knows when to be shush and when not to be. I started planting in that area based on his comments. I never thought of a hip wall with a gate so I went with what seemed the path of least resistance which was the hostas. The birdbath was an after thought in that it went on sale the end of the season for $50. I figured what the heck and tossed it between the two ac units. I liked that mock barley twist to it.

Honeysuckle (%$&*#), I'll have to pass on that alleopathic monster. Actually Buckthorn is considerably more alleopathic than Honeysuckle. Both have chemicals that kill off other species. My property is a classic example of how they can dominate an understory blocking out sun to the ground and sending out their nasty chemicals which further prohibits regeneration of other species. This is why I have only old growth oaks and hickories here, nothing under 50 years of age.

The total of buckthorn and honeysuckle removed from the property is at right around 3,700 to date. I'm thinking there's at least that much left but much smaller plants for the most part now as we hit the bigguns first and we hit em hard. Maybe 50 twenty five footers left but no more than 100 so this is a good thing. And that pile of limbs in the vegetable garden was a small pile of upper fruiting branches and one of probably about 50 such piles that we torched. Fortunately, the males in my family are closet pyros and burning is the hi-light of their lives. They all hang around with glazed looks and marvel at the flames and kids run around super charged tossing anything that isn't nailed down onto the pile. Male neighbors are attracted to the blaze (like bugs to a zapper) and flock over to admire the bonfire and they all stand around and bond. It's a guy thing I am told.

I talked to my girlfriend tonight and she has a scanner so if I draw out the basics, she said she'd draw in the rest for me and post something for you to get an idea. She's better at drawing than me and she is very familiar with this property and would know where the fruit trees are as well as the "secret shade garden" as well as the AC units and such so I'll dump this baby on her to give you a good idea of what we've got and then you can see where my "pockets" are. I desperately need design ideas as there is no way I could afford a landscape achitect/designer right about now.

Yup, native plants are the way to go. That well situation with no water was the pits and we can't afford to take another hit like that anytime soon.

I think we can terrace down. Our lot was the highest elevation of all back here with the wetlands all draining away from our property. We then backfilled and increased the actual elevation for the home by another 4' so we should have no problems. Even with record flooding last spring our home was high and dry. The area I was thinking about doing this tiering/terracing in is already a mud slop hole so no worry mate! I can send you a photo of that next spring and you'll surely see anything would be an improvement over what is there now. This I do not understand, "You might want to have a wide garden path wind around a corner that you have bermed up behind a small terrace. You can back it up with some smaller evergreens in different sizes and colors so it looks like it belongs there." I like the way it sounds but I can't picture it in my head. Here's where I lose it. No picture and I can't sort out what you are saying in my head.

Bonemeal = varmit magnet
Yes, you are correct which is why I'd like to find something better. I'll go look at what Margie used.

Here's a little problem I discovered here last year. We call it gypsy moth. I plan on scraping as many egg cases as I can find from bark and dabbing with a chemical but my girlfriend thinks I should take a rubber mallett to the egg case. I do need to set some traps. Either way, I need to kill them so they don't kill my trees.

Am I having fun yet? Is this gypsy moth deal an adventure or what! Oh, this is what I mean by you gotta just laugh sometimes!

http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/morgantown/4557/gmoth/








This message was edited Aug 29, 2006 11:29 PM

Is there any software out there that I could draw with?

Sure there is a lot of software, but we're not talking about rocket science here. Just sketch a rough shape of the property, put the landmarks in - including the elevation change(just a dotted line) , give me some distances and I will get it on paper.

You don't need to learn a whole program right now. I will make a sketch of the terrace and take a photo. I am reducing medication right now which makes me sicker than a dog so I'll be slow but we'll have a lot of fun if you're a little patient.

I'll be back, DH wants to talk

Here is the drawing of the terrace with the evergreens I talked about that changes grade without changing grade! (I put this on another thread by mistake.)

Well, good thing we're not talking about rocket science or I'd be in deep doggie do do! What program did that simple line drawing? That's cool! I see what you mean now. Just so you know, the people who excavated for the bog have to come back because the snow started flying before they could finish. I have a golden opportunity to remove that landscape block from that one bermy thing and increase that area using what little material is left to take out this coming spring so if I am going to go for this, I need to go for it now otherwise I'll end up paying for clean fill and trucking it back on site right after I just hauled away 2 semis with 1 load left to go this coming spring. I like this idea and I gotta tell you I would prefer that it be without the retaining blocks but I don't know how all that material would be kept compacted so as not to stress white pine or white spruce which would be my choices for that location as space is in my side. You do realize that these species can attain heights greater than 100' so with a little arranging, I could tuck 1 central spruce flanked by 2 pines into that corner quite nicely with a wrap around path sometime in the future or maybe not at all as that is an area which I had planned to convert to no mow lawn. What do you think?

Boy, you sure have a great set-up, and obviously a great deal of energy to tackle such a project. My post, however, is referencing far above, where you ask how to hide your A/C unit. I have the same eye-sore, and have planted a dwarf korean lilac in front of it, and a corsican hellebore to the right of that. The hellebore will become immense eventually, but it can be kept under control by division. The lilac won't get more than 6 ft high, but I think I'll keep it trimmed to 4 ft once it gets there!) so we can see out the window!

Hi ceedub! One little problem, the area is full shade. It is bright shade but there is no direct sun what so ever. The photo doesn't show the orientation most unfortunately and I also played with the brightness and the contrast to the image to lighten it up to be able to post it here. Sorry that is my fault, I should have mentioned that I meddled with the photo. The lilacs require full sun but can tolerate a little bit of shade. The corsican hellebores are very attractive and they seem to be not nearly as picky as lilacs but I don't think they will tolerate a northern exposure in full shade. My neighbor kitty coner to me has some of these corsican hellebore beauties but I don't know which cultivar she has. I might just for the heck of it get a few cuttings and see what they do. Lilacs happen to be one of my more favorite shrubs. Their scent is heavenly to me. Hmmm, maybe I could add a few lilacs in other spots!

Good point, mine are on the north side of my house, but have a bit of unobstructed sun in the afternoon for a few hours - there's a 30 ft hill across the street, so they don't get late day sun at all. But the difference is, they DO get some sun, and I guess that's what they need. I just love my corsican hellebore-especially since, just as the snow's melting in the spring, it starts to bloom. Here's my baby taken early this summer, but it got bigger still by the end of the summer - http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/52744/ - you can see the "beast" (A/C unit) just to the left.

(Edited to add: since you seem so interested in hellebores....lol.)

This message was edited Jan 11, 2005 2:41 PM

Ceedub. You would pick the one plant that I despair not being able to grow. Lilacs! How lovely. I think that some of the smaller hollys grow in shade if you want evergreen. If you don't care about that, i'm on a hydrangea kick - see below. They come in all sizes now, I have a 'Blue Wave' that I love - it doesn't have the big ball flowers, but it blooms several times a year and the blossoms stay until - well they are still there although faded. Probably wouldn't be at your house. I know that there are new cultivars out there that are pretty much in bloom all summer. There are some beautiful evergreens that are mound shaped rather than upright. One I have says it will get to 5 by 5 and it is a drooping yellow-ended beauty. Cotoneaster is a great plant if you can grow it. A little sticky but it keeps red berries all winter. And I want a flowering crabapple tree next to your house somewhere. Everyone should have one!

The draw program is Apple Works 6. I'm afraid I'm a Mac addict. And this draw program has a lot more it can do - lay out floor plans, do elevations, color, etc. but my knowledge is pretty elementary.

Your ideas about the raised patio are excellent. A few ideas:

As far as a retaining wall, remember that you can step it up just a few feet at a time so you can use less retentive materials. You can put stakes down several feet and tie weather resistant timbers to it and then fill it. Remember that the upper walls in my garden are dry stacked. They have no retaining structure behind them so this method would be stronger than what I have. You could even use rebar which would be stronger in the long run. Just make sure the stake or rebar stops at least 2 inches below the top of the log - or whatever. If you do step it up like that you can leave part of it for steps and plant some of it. Otherwise, does creeping fig grow in zone 5? It covers block walls beautifully. Otherwise, stagger the block walls back, plant in the spaces. Then buy some moss, rub yogurt on your blocks and then some moss. You'll be pretty happy. You can even start something in the chinks of the blocks. Or, you can use blocks on most of the wall, where you are going to plant anyway, and use something more lovely for the steps. Maybe somebody could drop some rock off for you? You only need about 4 feet of steps. If you run out of money, there is no reason the patio couldn't be grass too. You can always pave it later. Can you tell I've done some gardening on a budget?

I have seen this done with evergreens, and they used color really efficiently - a dark green, a bright green, a blue one. And probably a cultivar that doesn't get to 100'. Do you know how much those cost to take down when they get old? OUCH. How about a Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Crippsii' (false cypress) - golden foliage and 30 feet. A Japanese Umbrella pine? There are lots of blue, gray yellow bright green ones. Just remember that Cedrus and Juniperus doen't like shade, but most Abies, Taxus, Thuja, and tsuga are particularly shade tolerant. And Thuga comes in all sizes and colors. It even comes in many dwarf cultivars - and you thought they only come in giant. I am quoting from "The American Horticultural Society encyclopedia of Plants and Flowers. I wouldn't be without it if I were choosing trees and shrubs - or climbers, names a lot of ferns that would work in your area, misses the mark for people who are really into perennials and bulbs, but it is a manageable size to actually work with. The puppy loved the corner too. Yum! If you don't want to invest, hit the library for this book.

And it doesn't have to be evergreens in back to bring a feeling of height behind the patio. If you don't mind deciduous plants, a really big Hydrangea would work. You could get a fragrant one, and then maybe a Rhodie, Azaleas, some of the roses bloom in shade - Clematis....How about a horse chestnut grown as a shrub? I'm am not great at zone 5, but I think that I'm doing OK.

No reason a path can't be grass and you don't need a path at all, unless you want to make a bed for smaller plants at the bottom of your stairs. Lovely!

But Lilacs, You're right Equilibrium, you always want what you can't grow.

Oh boy, where to start-
First off, about those crabapples... I ordered 3 Prairie Crab Apples (Malus ioenensis) for delivery ths spring back in October or maybe it was November. I'll need to figure out where they are going to go though.

Hydrangeas love acid and would be a natural in and around a spruce and pines. I have to go and look up that 'Blue Wave' hydrangea.

Lilacs, what can I say. I am partial to President Grevy and President Lincoln lilacs. I have a few of those here now and they seem to be fine. I would like to pick up two very fragrant white lilacs for my not so secret shade garden that is now going to be a moon garden in full sun. I'd like to figure out what other whites I can get for over there even if I don't buy them right now. I do know that I want Fothergillas for that area too.

As far as redoing that berm area, I need a windbreak and the evergreens will work there. I did order a few other types of evergreens but they may not survive here in that it will be pushing my zone to the max so those need to go in a protected location. They are American Hollies and we'll have to wait and see. I also ordered winterberry. I'll have enough plant material to work with. This would not be the area that would have any seating or a patio in it though.

By the back patio I have a Kentucky Coffeetree, a Downy Hawthorn and as soon as the snow goes bye bye, I can look at the other tags to see what else I stuck there. I do have several horsechestnuts here on the property somewhere that I stuck in the ground last year and do not know if they have survived. Time will tell but I have to find them first. Horsechestnuts can not be grown as shrubs, they don't take a liking to the bonsai effect. They'd be dead within a season if they were pruned to keep them small. I did also order some American Yellowwoods. Look that tree up. Gorgeous and indigenous here as well as endangered and threatened. I do need to figure out where those will go too.

Whew! So far I know I want to run with your drawing of the terracing where that one berm currently is. Easy enough to move the landscape bricks and I can certainly use them somewhere else so no biggie. Then I can get material over there to create a mega berm that would be home to the spruce and pine. I am really liking your Apple diagram and the area I can pull this off in is perfect and actually lends itself to what Doss came up with. I showed it to my husband and he liked it better than what I had over there.

I'm just reading your mind! See, you do have a good eye - I've been trying to tell you that. I can see that a horse chestnut might not want to be a shrub. Thanks for catching that. Here's a picture of one in the fall in our neighborhood in front of a California Live Oak. How big are those Malus and what color are they? I have three weeping ones and a pretty large one outside Marty's office. I'm afraid that it's going to be too big and make his study dark though. I might just have to move it.

Glad that your husband likes the idea - sorry you'll have to move some bricks. There is an excellent book for planning wind breaks somewhere here. I'll find it.

Ha! Wasn't my eye that came up with what to do that my husband liked over there- it was yours! Remember, I had a measly barren berm over there that will now be taken down and dramatically expanded. I don't mind moving the bricks. I'll just create a third level in the other berms which aren't all that far away. I am still trying to figure out how to retain 2' up from the ground without using landscaping bricks. Maybe a gentle slope down such as what we have by the septic field mound? I could keep it mulched with something or other. I saw pebbles people were using and I would not be opposed to that material in a mix of grays to match the house and such. I need to check into possible drawbacks of using that material to define the space.

Most of my plants are small because that's what I can afford. The other deal is that they tend to transplant better if they are smaller so nothing I order will generally ever be greater in height than 4-5'. The native crabs are pink flowering. Not all that spectacular of a spring show but I ordered them to fill a niche over here for food source and I am working of a checklist of habitat requirements for this property from the Dept Of Natural Resources. That particular crab happened to work.

I loved the winter form of yours with the crab apples still clinging to it. I can't believe critters haven't snatched those yet. Any fruiting tree over here is stripped within days of the fruit ripening and we have nothing that stands with fruit for greater than a week.

See my post on the Gardener's creed re: holding back the berm without hardscape. I'll bet even that black landscaping cloth would work, and it would hold down the weeds too. You just need to hold down the slope until the plants work their cute little toes into it and then they will hold it in for you. You could even use some of what you're cutting down to hold back the tiers. It will naturally deteriorate over time. Just stake it back, like in bundles and pack that with dirt. You can plant in the holes, over it and under it in the tiers. Plant roots are wonderful that way. How high are you planning this "berm"?

2'

I am wondering if it might not be best to run one round of landscape brick to outline the shape?

I just found out that treated timbers are a no go over here. I can use trunks that have been downed though.

A row of bricks depends on how natural you want the area to look. If you are going to plant it with materials that will fall over it anyway, probably not worth it. I needed the paving but I prefer a more natural edge of plants, especially on a grass path. It seems that a row of bricks would stop the eye instead of bringing it to the plantings which is that you want. On the other hand, if you like areas outlined with bricks, I say, go with the bricks. They are beautiful in a formal garden. Depends on the look you want. The plants in my yard will eventurally spread out onto the pavers where it's shady. The pavers are too hot in the sun.

The tree in the picture is a Horse Chestnut tree. Sorry, must not have made that clear. And they were gone within two weeks of taking this picture.

We can't do treated timbers here either. Toxic.

I'm dying to send you some pictures. Guess I'll have to get DH to teach me to use the scanner after all.