Is this really legal? II

I'm not exactly sure what the purpose of this thread is...can anyone clue me in?

They did in this post!

Should a person knowingly collect and distribute noxious weed seeds? No, but I give credit that most traders here and elsewhere wouldn't intentionally do that, with or without regulations in place.


http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/373154/

"License and Certification Information - Seed Quality

Certified Seed Growers

Requirement: An individual, firm or corporation desiring to produce Texas certified seed and/or plants must obtain a license from the Texas Seed and Plant Board. The Texas Department of Agriculture provides, processes, accepts and facilitates this process."

Requirement: A person who sells, offers , exposes or otherwise distributes for sale vegetable seed within Texas for planting purposes must obtain a Vegetable Seed License from the Department."

http://www.agr.state.tx.us/license/regulatory/seed/reg_seed_license_info.htm

This is just one example for Texas, which unfortunatly has separate regulations and overseeing organizations for terrestial, aquatic, and agricultural seeds, as well as separate regulations governing intrastate, interstate, and international distribution. Given that, is my logic debatable? Yes, I think it is, Given that, is my logic a quantum leap? I think not. This is precisely why I asked the question that is the title of this thread 3 weeks ago. It is also why I started the post that you are quoting with "As I understand it there are legal issues that go beyond whether or not particular seeds are for an invasive plant." which you have chosen twice now to leave out when you have quoted me. My quote in context was not specific to invasive species or noxious weeds.

many may believe that for practical purposes it's the receiver that gets in trouble. As I have stated this is not the case in Colorado and in not the case in other states, and is what i believe to be a common misconception despite our ignorance and good intentions....

From the Colorado Noxious Weed Management Act....
35-5.5-104.5. Intentional introduction, cultivation, or sale of noxious weeds - costs.
(1)(a) It shall be unlawful to intentionally introduce, cultivate, sell, offer for sale, or knowingly allow to grow in violation of this article or any rule promulgated hereunder in this state any noxious weed designated pursuant to section 35-5.5-108 (2)(a);
This is not the case for Federal Listed Noxious Weeds either.

lol, first off, water hyacinths are not (as far as I know) forbidden here in Tennessee. They can't survive our winters. They're freely sold around here by reputable, licensed nurseries, but I'm too tight to pay $3 apiece for them.

secondly, my plants are kept in an man-made pond. I wouldn't release them into any waterways when they're so easy to compost at summer's end.

I'm not a lawyer, nor a legal expert, but from reading the state and federal regs cited here, the issue that is going to trigger these guidelines is the intent to sell; i.e., a commercial seedsman. We don't permit the sale of seed or plants on our forums.

Trading for plants or seeds of like value, or giving them away for postage is not going to trigger a state or federal probe any more than handing your neighbor a clump of some green growing stuff (assuming it's legal to grow) violates the intent or spirit of the laws currently on the books in your jurisdiction.

So.......what is it we're really talking about here? Surely we all have better things to do than scare people into not trading anything for fear of being turned in.

Terry
I really don't know where you read that we are intentionally scaring people.
The fact of the matter is that in Colorado the gardener who hands their neighbor a clump of green stuff as in a listed noxious weed species is as culpable as the neighbor who recieves it, period. Like it or not it's a fact.
No we may not trigger a violation for trading seeds but that's not the point, All we are talking abou tis what the law states. Not how to read it to get around what it says....Nor has anyone mentioned turning anyone in since that's what you seem to be thinking...

This message was edited Nov 21, 2004 8:43 PM

Perhaps a genuine interest in helping with the eradication of invasive noxious weeds. Not resisisting members concerns with the matter.

This plant and the related entity italicized and indented below are listed by the U. S. federal government or a state. Common names are from state and federal lists. Click on a place name to get a complete noxious weed list for that location.
United States:
anchored waterhyacinth Noxious weed
Alabama:
anchored waterhyacinth Class A noxious weed
Arizona:
anchored waterhyacinth Prohibited noxious weed
California:
anchored waterhyacinth Quarantine
Florida:
Eichhornia Kunth
waterhyacinth Prohibited aquatic plant, Class 1
Massachusetts:
anchored waterhyacinth Noxious weed
North Carolina:
anchored waterhyacinth Class A noxious weed
Oregon:
anchored waterhyacinth Quarantine
South Carolina:
rooted water hyacinth Invasive aquatic plant
anchored waterhyacinth, rooted waterhyacinth Plant pest
Texas:
rooted waterhyacinth Noxious plant
Vermont:
anchored waterhyacinth Class A noxious weed
http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/plant_profile.cgi?symbol=EIAZ2


Well I can't speak for anyone else, but what I am talking about is that the wind, and birds, and waterways, and soil don't really care whether or not the seeds they scatter were sold commercially or given away. Whatever the end disposition of those seeds, the result remains the same. And logically, because seeds traded or given away in small quantities by individuals rather that commercial growers, it increases the likelihood of them containing excessive weed seed or pests, since they are not inspected and we as individual backyard gardeners do not have the equipment to identify and separate microscopic pests or weed seeds from the seeds we package. I am not trying to scare anyone into not trading for fear of being caught. But I am trying to make them aware of the potential damage to the environment of the planet we all share. Is there something wrong with that?

We seem to be talking about two different issues.

No one has argued (here, anyway) that noxious weeds should be intentionally traded where illegal, and I doubt you'd get much debate on that issue (please note that I qualified my fictitious "green stuff" as legal to grow ;o)

The broader issue is the allegation that no seed trading is legal, since traded seeds are not certified.

In my response, I contend (and will continue to contend) that seed trading doesn't rise to the level of commercial seed sales; hence there is no illegality in trading otherwise legal seeds.

I'm not sure where you interpreted that I read any intent into this thread - but since your raised the issue, is it your intent to scare or intimidate members here?

I'll ask again: what is the real purpose of this thread? To raise awareness that some plants are considered noxious weeds and that all traders here should be conscientious of that fact? Consider it done.

To help eradicate invasive noxious weeds? Then let's talk about eradication methods.

Or is it to discuss the legality (or illegality) of seed trading? That seems to be the recurring theme...



On the contrary, commercial seed growers often use mechanical methods to harvest their seed, compared to a home gardener who tends to manually harvest seeds. As a result, the commercial seedsman is much more likely to end up with weed seeds in their seed - hence the rules to protect the consumer from sloppy harvesting tactics. The regulations are intended to protect the consumer from unscrupulous commercial seed growers who might sell packets of chaff and weed seeds if they weren't required to certify their seed as having a certain purity and germination rate.

Terry said 9:26 PM CST: "So.......what is it we're really talking about here? Surely we all have better things to do than scare people into not trading anything for fear of being turned in."

Terry said 10:13 PM CST: "I'm not sure where you interpreted that I read any intent into this thread - but since your raised the issue, is it your intent to scare or intimidate members here?"

Pville said 9:49 PM CST: I am not trying to scare anyone into not trading for fear of being caught.

Pville says: I raised the issue? Which word did I not understand?

Terry says 10:13 PM: I'll ask again: what is the real purpose of this thread? To raise awareness that some plants are considered noxious weeds and that all traders here should be conscientious of that fact? Consider it done.

To help eradicate invasive noxious weeds? Then let's talk about eradication methods.

Or is it to discuss the legality (or illegality) of seed trading? That seems to be the recurring theme.

Pville says (cut and paste from email reply to Terry earlier today asking pretty much the same question): On Oct 27, I began the original thread in the Seed Trading forum entitled "Is this really legal?" My intiating post reads :
"There are an awful lot of international, federal, and individual state restictions on moving plants (whether seed, live plants, bare roots, etc. between states, whether by personal transport or through a mail carrier. The concerns are generally those related to pest infestations or plants that are considered invasive or an ecological threat to native plants in a given area. My understanding is that these laws apply not only to commercial nurseries but to individual gardeners. Am I wrong on this?

Pville says right now: So yes the original intent of this thread was my question 3 weeks ago about the legality of seed trading. In the intervening 3 weeks that this thread has been running, I'm not aware of the intent being a source of confusion until right now. I have now tried to answer your same questions at least 3 times today both privately and publicly. How many more times do I need to answer the same question with the same answer? Until I give you a different answer?

Pville, the question of invasivie plants is an interesting one and I feel it deserves serious consideration. I also find it interesting. As to the legality of trading seeds, I feel that it will remain a matter of personal choice and conscience until federal and state regulations are enacted or existing laws are enforced.

I have to ask the same question Terry is posing. What is our purpose here on this thread? I'm happy to discuss the transport of noxious plants and our responsibility to the environment, but unless any of us is ready to turn informant or in any other way try to stop the flow of traded seeds on this site and many others like it, it is still personal choice. I respect your apparent desire to follow the letter of the law as you see it. I do not intend to send you seeds or ask you to send them to me.

Where are we going here?

Again, I can't speak for any "we" but here is where I am going:

I am done with justifying my every post over and over again. I am looking for a gardening site, not a daytime soap opera nor reruns of Judge Judy. I am just an ordinary person with an interest in gardening. When I first started this thread 3 weeks ago, it was because I liked the concept of seed trading and actually wanted to participate, but based on my general background in mail order, I was leery of the legality of it. While I was vaguely and very basically aware of the environmental issues of invasives species, I must confess that at that point, I was only concerned with my own back yard and not getting caught, mostly by the post office, since I rely on them heavily in what I do for a living. It was only when, and thanks to, all of the information and personal experience that folks like Equilibrium, Caron, Dyson, Sugarweed and others have shared, initially as a result of that thread, that I became deeply interested in the wider issues related to invasive species.

Also in those 3 weeks I have spent as much, if not more, time responding to accusations, innuendos, harassment, and repeated, redundant interogations, both publicly and privately, from DG Admins, Ubers, and long time members.

So in answer to your question "Where are "we" going here". My answer is, " I" am going to find a gardening site. You can go where ever you like.

Now.....do "we" like that answer better?

Why does "where we are going here" matter? Don't threads go wherever it is they're going for Pete's sake? "turn informant"? Where in the Sam Hill does that come from? Are you acknowledging that there is something to inform? Cite something that :tries "to stop the flow of traded seeds on this site." Its just not there, Weez! I, for one, do not intend to trade seeds with you either unless you want to swap some Texas chickweed for Alaska chickweed. Yep, we have chickweed here, too! :-)

Is Texas chickweed different from Alaska chickweed? please send pics of both. Then I will know what chickweed is.

I will first thing in the morn. The plants (rosettes?) have sprouted and will take off iagain in the spring. The heat will kill them off but, not before they set seed! I could not believe it was here, too! Its a delicious green when picked very young. A very nasty weed to most gardeners in "The Greatland."

I have to take the blame for what seems to have been a re-direction of the thread.Being a poppy enthusiast the aforementioned law was of concern.When you look at many of the seed catalogs you will find comments such as this as in Thompson & Morgan's. "Thompson & Morgan recognizes that U,S, Law prohibits the cultivation of Papaver somniferum L. and therefore is not offering this species for sale in the U.S." My intent was certainly not to encourage debate or generate a contentious situation. I admit to not having thought out the possible repercussions my statements could have, and seemingly have created, but to merely to pose another aspect of what is involved in the everyday life of gardeners. To me the act of submitting my post was a means of sharing what little information I have with an extremely large group of what I believed to be persons dedicated in many varied degrees of gardening enthusiasim.Some knowledgeble professionals,some hobbiests and a lot of amatures like myself.If anyone is truly interested 'in where we are going' I would like to offer my idea, for what it's worth.We are going on a journey of learning;we are going to explore areas we may never have heard of before finding these forums;we are going to find out that we can really make a difference in the lives and feelings of some members who are in pain and may not have another source of solace; we are seeing things and sharing things which would not exist were it not for these threads;we are comparing experiences with cameras,computers,recipes,pets,oh yes,also on gardening.The question of where we are going and how we can get there is personal and has as many answers as there are members. Should anyone feel my bringing up the post about the law and poppy growing in this thread was inappropriate,to you I offer my apologies,but it is you that has the problem, not I. To quote my grand-daughter "chill out far far".

well said

We are here to garden, not prevent others from gardening. The seeds and plants I have gotten from DG people have been cleaner than any I've ever boughten or more true to cultivar.

I have seen some incredible restored Praire fileds full of wildflowers too invasive for my garden. I am here to learn & share, not condemn another's choices. I can assure you that none of my cultivars will ever be offered to you.

Weez, I agree with you in personal choice. I choose to own a business, I choose to attend church, I choose to raise children, I choose to volunteer for a variety of issues. These are MY choices and I do not intend to force others to accept them. I pray that you learn to be more accepting of other's choices as you grow older.

No one here is preventing anyone else from gardening Wanda. Not at all. Not in the least.
Just talking about the law and how it may or may not affect us. Why the heck does everyone seem so paranoid about a
simple discussion?
"I can assure you that none of my cultivars will ever be offered to you". Are we on some sort of banned list or something now?

This message was edited Nov 22, 2004 7:25 PM

Just as in real life we have different types of conversations, so it is in a discussion forum.

Most threads are direct and purposeful - what is this plant? why did my leaves do this? how do I amend my soil? where do I buy this plant? Those are fairly straight forward conversations - you might get several different replies and ideas, but the question is asked and answered fairly quickly.

There are laid-back "front porch rocking chair" conversations - no purpose, no aim, just a rambling thread of comments taking off on one another, often humorous "say, that reminds me of the time...." stories. There have been grand adventures that went to Australia and back, giggles and grins over curb shopping, Horseshoe regaling us with stories on tomatoes, slugs and footwear, and many others.

Then there are threads that make me raise an eyebrow - this is one of them. Protestations to the contrary, this is not a simple conversation - that would have been handled in far fewer than 300+ posts.

In and of itself keeping a close eye on a thread is a mild aggravation, but this is more concerning since it is being driven by the same group that recently asked/demanded to be given a forum, and who have continued to vigorously argue against the answer they were given. (Even though it's the exact same response we've given each time that request has been made in the past.)

The basic question "Is it legal" has been answered repeatedly. Apparently the answers haven't satisfied those asking the question.

So now I'm wondering "why do you keep asking?"

Is it because you don't like the answer?

Is it it to see who "takes the bait" so you can argue with them?

Is it to make clear your condemnation of trading in the form of a question?

Is it to find out who disagrees with you?

While I could reasonablly assume these questions might elicit one or more "yes" responses, I've tried to give the benefit of the doubt, which is why I've pressed the point to find out what the real intentions are. It's a bit like finding people loitering around a buffet line asking aloud "Is this food safe to eat?" An innocuous question, perhaps. But asked repeatedly, it tends to make people wary and wonder just what is going on. Consider me the equivalent of the party hostess, strolling over to find out if there's a problem; if there is, then let's hear it.

You apparently are not satisfied with the answers given? Looking for some hidden agenda? My answer was given above (9/21, 9:37p). I have no hidden agenda.

For all the fuss, I have to thank everyone here for making me more aware of the noxious weeds in my state. I'm going to be keeping a closer eye on them from now on. That's a good thing. It's something, as responsible gardeners, we should all think about... but it is still a personal decision. If that is what this thread is about, I support it.

If this thread is about a genuine interest in the regulations and legalities of shipping seeds and live plant materials, that is a legitimate issue, and one that has been addressed before here in Dave's Garden. Perhaps some of us who have already entered into those discussions should have linked them into this thread. There was some good information there, as well.

As has been pointed out, there are some plants that are considered invasive or noxious in certain places. Seed catalogs will tell you which states they cannot ship to, but the plants are still offered. Each plant has a purpose in this world or it would not exist. As non-commercial seed & plant traders, we cannot hope to keep track of the laws for each state, each country... we usually depend on the good sense of the recipient who should be aware of the noxious plants in his/her state.

Years ago, I purchased seed for an unusual plant called 'Armenian Basket Flower'. The base of the fuzzy yellow flower looked like a basket. I ordered seed, then later offered to send some to a friend in Washington. She sent back a message telling me not to send it. As it turned out, the plant was a Centaurea... Big Headed Knapweed... a noxious weed in the state of Washington. I did try growing it here, but it soon died out. Once I understood what it was, I quit trying.

I, too, love poppies. The somniferums are some of my favorites. They love our climate here and do quite well. I've been growing them for years. I can buy seeds here in the US, and also from overseas. Thompson and Morgan, for one, have limited most sales to the somniferum called 'peony poppies'. The ones that are feathered seem to be unavailable to us, as are the hen & chicks type. Some distinction has been made, some concession, I believe. Also, the term 'breadseed poppy' seems to be more acceptible. They are all somniferum.

Laws are made to allow society to protect itself from itself. Enforcement of the laws is based on the need at the time. Some laws are deliberately vague in order to allow some wiggle room. It is my belief that is where we stand with trading seeds. As long as we don't abuse the privilege, and as long as we don't pose hard questions and demand hard answers, the seed police will not be at our door. As it stands right now, here in the US, we are the seed police, and as long as we are responsible about it, I'm hoping it will stay that way.

Pville: I'd like to clear up something concerning Ubers... or at least this Uber. That's the only one I can speak for. I, in no way, have any authority over Dave's Garden. I was bestowed this 'title' because I've spent quite a bit of time in the Plants Database helping make it the best darned database online. I certainly didn't do as much as many others, and I certainly am not administration. Somehow, it seems the term Uber has been conveyed as some sort of Dave's Garden SS men on this thread, and I don't like it.

Here are my issues and please do not attack me for feeling the way I do as I hesitated even posting out of fear of having cyber bricks tossed at me. I feel gardening should be a celebration of differing styles which result in differing goals. I garden for wildlife and to try my best to insure that certain species of plant and animal will be seen in their native habitat by my grandchildren and great grandchildren and great great grandchildren as opposed to only in picture books. Think Dodo, Tasmanian Tiger, Passenger Pigeon, Caribbean Monk Seal, and too many terrestrial and aquatic species of both flora and fauna to list. Oh, the list of the plants and fish that are gone forever from Illinois is enough to make my stomach upset. My wildlife gardening style may not be for everyone and I most assuredly can appreciate and respect that. I also believe gardeners should be stewards to the land although I am feeling as if I am in the minority here. It has been so darn uncomfortable here lately feeling as if all the kids on the playground are laughing and having a gay old time while I'm off in a corner trying to evaporate and to a certain degree wishing I had never joined DG.

I believe there to exist a tremendous amount of misinformation out there. I have fallen victim to it so many times I have lost track. Much of which is perpetuated based on outdated ideology. Very few ways to combat that other than the pooling of collective experiences in the form of posts which enable a reader to pause for a moment and say, "hey wait a second here... this poster claims this while yet another claims something totally different". Private messaging exists here which enables subscribers to contact other members privately to ask for an expansion in an area of concern to avoid "ruffled feathers" yet I wish I could feel comfortable posting direct as there are quite a few threads I would like to be in a position to post a response to yet now I hesitate to do so outside of the Garden Foes Forum.

I do wholeheartedly believe an area in the PDB should be created to include native range if known and able to be documented. I have no knowledge of prior threads in which this was discussed and abandoned so I apologize in advance if I have just opened old wounds. I would like to see a revisit to forums such as an exotic invasive species forum in the future specifically for those gardeners who have interests in these areas but have been and will continue to be respectful of the administration’s current no.

As far as seed and plant trading here, I am a firm believer subscribers should be able to make their own decisions (hoping they do so within the parameters of the law) as to which seed/plants to ask for and which seed/plants to offer. I agree with this statement, "As it stands right now, here in the US, we are the seed police, and as long as we are responsible about it, I'm hoping it will stay that way." so please count me out as being a whistle blower for subscribers trading purple loosestrife seed and or plants in Illinois even though that plant is one of my banes. Matter of fact, count me out of the whistle blower category entirely as those who live in glass houses should not throw stones and I distinctly recall having sent water hyacinth (not just one plant but at least 5 or 6 if memory serves me) to my aunt's girlfriend at a time when I did not know it was illegal to possess without the proper permitting in their state. My aunt lives in Florida and when she was up visiting me she had seen the water hyacinth in my pond and specifically asked that I please send some down for her to give to her friend who couldn't buy it any more and wanted some really bad. What can I say, I had no idea so I gently wrapped each individual plant in damp paper towels, placed each one in a large ziplock, and shipped it off to Florida. We all occasionally make uninformed and uneducated decisions and no one is exempt from screwing up.

Water Hyacinth, in my opinion, is but one fine example of a plant that is truly deserving of any bad pr it gets. I find it would be difficult and exhaustive to be placed in a position of attempting to relay the flip side of the coin in some threads when some repeatedly espouse this plant as being the greatest thing since sliced bread. Bottom line is there are many many new subscribers who lurk. They read what I peceive to be this one sided interpretation that basically states if you are a good person bad things won't happen by owning this plant and voila, an entire new generation of water hyacinth loving gardeners is created who know nothing other than that the plant is absolutely beautiful, prolific (more to share), and a spectacular nitrate factory. I know I was incapable of fathoming short term or long term consequences when I first began gardening let alone plant reproductive issues which could conceivably enable this monster to mutate into a cold-resistant ecotype. And there do exist numerous plants that have mutated and water hyacinth is one that is believed by some to have an incredible perpensity to do so based on how this plant has naturalized.

All this being said, people in states where it is illegal, swap seeds and exchange plants at a rate that is alarming to me and one misplaced plant can make a difference in my humble opinion. I truly believe this is a direct result of deficiencies in educating the public on the toll this plant takes on the environment and the clean up expenses associated with same. Sad, as the vast majority of people out there are extremely reasonable, responsible, and beyond cooperative and I really don't seem to know anyone out there begging the feds or states to increase our taxes to clean up even more of it. Do the benefits of stocking one's pond with plants such as water hyacinth and water celery outweigh the risks? To a small minority who know of the plants destructive potential, it is worth the risk but the vast majority have no idea what so ever what havoc this plant wreaks. And Terry, this is NOT an attack on you or whomever it was who sent you the water hyacinths (remember, I sent it out too back the first year I put my first pond in the ground) as I saw the thread referenced above and about had a heart attack UNTIL I realized the posts in that thread were a few years old. Actually, after I saw it I desperately tried to find a thread where I had commented negatively about water hyacinth very recently to go back and edit and remove any negative connotations directed toward that plant out of fear of offending YOU and getting jumped by people coming to your defense. I couldn't find it so figured what the heck... might as well use it as an example here.

So in answer to Terry's question above I offer the following-
I wish to feel comfortable openly discussing issues and concerns I have regarding my style of gardening. It's my personal style and isn't going to be for everyone. If people with my style of gardening are welcome here, please let me know as I'd like to hang out with all of you and I have met some really nice people and quite a few come to mind. I will try not to become assuming, defensive, or combatant but I am human and I make mistakes just like everyone else and I would hope others here would respect me enough to point out my indiscretions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me even 5% of the time given some threads I have read but could people help me help myself by continuing to point out to me when I have something amiss? The recent planting of 3 mislabeled tropical ferns that I believed to be hardy natives around a new pond of mine comes to mind. A subscriber here immediately picked up on my mistake from the photo I had posted. Plant tags aren't always correct! I was very grateful this person said something to me as I got those ferns out of the ground real quick and gave them away to people who could take them indoors.

Best wishes to everyone here and I am saying a prayer right now that what I have written is not taken out of context.

Equilibrium, I hope you don't feel I am mocking you in any way or disallowing your environmental concerns. That's not my issue at all. It seems to me that you are trying to be a good steward of the land. We should all do that, and as one learns more about plants, I think that has to follow.

I am perhaps guilty of not understanding the stranglehold exotics can get when introduced into friendlier climates. Our seasons here are often unkind to strangers... both flora and fauna. I've never had to deal with purple loosestrife. I've got a patch of yellow variegated loosestrife I've been trying to get up to size to divide for 4 years! So, you can see, your information is valuable to me.

The only part of your statement I find uncomfortable is the 'whistle-blowing' part. Stepping into a thread to explain the ecological ramifications of sharing purple loosestrife is not what I would call whistleblowing, so if that is the case, it's just my interpretation of your wording that bothers me. If you are referring to reporting information you read in Dave's Garden to the Federal Government, I do have a problem. That is entirely your choice, but if this site seems to be suffering some division now, that would surely do it. Education is fine, whistleblowing is not, as far as I'm concerned. Did I misunderstand you?

Thank you for replying to me, it does mean a lot to me.

Yes, you misunderstood me so thanks for asking. Whistle blowing has no place in the current environment as it sets all of us back. It's blatantly mean spirited and not in the realm of tolerance toward one's neighbor.

Oh, good! We're walking such a fine line here sometimes that clarifying something certainly helps. I think it would be a good idea to have a spot on Dave's Garden that links us to the noxious plants list for any state or country. I'm not admin, so I don't know all about this, but I think it is often difficult to go back and add information to exisiting PDB entries. I think they have to go back and add them individually. From my experiences in reporting errors, etc, I know that admin gets swamped. Maybe they could find a spot for the kind of links that have appeared here on this thread concerning noxious weeds. I'd like to see that.

Thank you Weez. I appreciate ALL your comments here. You seem to have been able to help clear up alot for all of us (ok you're DG's resident shrink, right?)
;-}

Quick note: I deleted several posts from this thread. The posts were discussing the consumption of illegal drugs. We're obviously not going to allow that subject.

Dave

Opps my fault as well....I'll take the spanking ...sorry all!