Is this really legal? II

Thread was getting slow to load (even on broadband) thought I would start anew.

You beat me to it!

Great Idea Dyson.....It was becoming a real chore!!


Ok so, it seems from reading other posts both here and many other gardening sites that there is quite some discussion of not whether what seeds/plants are legal to ship either internationally or nationally, but how if it can be done without being caught.

What do others think of this and why? Too much bother to find the info? Too many restrictions? Because it doesn't matter? Won't be caught anyway (no plant police)......



This message was edited Nov 23, 2004 5:52 AM

Thanks again. Sidney

Trading in illegal plant materials is easy, for those so inclined, to circumvent. Rationalizing a moral value (breaking the law) is harder for me to understand.

In my opinion, export/import laws are in place mostly to prevent bringing in plant diseases, so most countries are more forgiving of seeds than live plant material. With seeds, the issue would most likely be whether growing them is dangerous to the environment in some way. I believe some countries are more careful than others about this, because they have, perhaps, not already been inundated with exotics. We've already talked about oxe-eye daisies. I feel they are safe to send almost anywhere, because they are already there. If they were going to a remote area with a hospitable climate, it could be an issue... as in an isolated island, etc.

Somehow, I feel it is the responsibility of the seed recipient to decide what is acceptable in their area. Of course, the person offering seeds should let someone know it can be invasive in some areas. If there are laws against transporting it, let the appropriate agencies make a decision of responsibility. If either party is concerned, they should do research before requesting or sending.

In the PDB, we are offered an opportunity to comment. This includes 'positive', 'negative', or 'neutral' ratings. This gives everyone an opportunity to offer their experiences. In most cases, we also see where they are growing this plant. If you look up certain plants, you can see that they are not consistantly a problem. Example: http://davesgarden.com/pdb/go/546/index.html The PDB also offers an opportunity to list the plant under 'Other details' as "May be a noxious weed or invasive."

As a general rule, I find most invasive plants in other areas are not a problem here. Our environment is hostile to many. However, the introduction of several forms of clover to our roadsides by the construction companies has become a problem. I also see the a form of attractive cross vetch has been brought into our area. I found it in beds down at the Alaska Sea Life Center, and it is literally creeping over the tops of the native plants that are there. I don't know that there is an answer to this problem, but there are no fast and hard rules about what is good and what is bad.

As I understand it there are legal issues that go beyond whether or not particular seeds are for an invasive plant. Seed packaging and transport are regulated not just into the United States but within the United States. Seed packagers are regularly inspected and certified for not exceeding certain maximums for weed seeds that are included with the target seeds and for proper seed preparation to insure that no living pest organisms such as microscopic insect larvae are included with the seeds. Since most of the seeds that are traded through DG are self gathered, self prepared, and self packaged, they are not inspected or certified and are therefore illegal to ship anywhere and illegal to transport by any means out of state.

Found these, Weez. There are more.

http://www.ak.blm.gov/ak930/weedpln.html
http://www.forests.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=36425

It seems there is a growing interest in threat of invasive plant species. Unlike the lower forty eight Alaska is in the prevention mode. Or is it?

and as a PS....IMO the issue is not about whether an individual gardner thinks it is or isn't invasive in his back yard. The issue is whether the escape from some ones's back yard has, is, or could be causing environmental and habitat damage. A gardner may well expend the effort to keep it pruned to acceptable proportions in his back yard and therefore, his personal experience and opinion of the plant is that it is not invasive. However, the progeny of that vary gardner's plant can be reeking havoc in wildlife areas, parks, and other's yards that his plant has escpaped too via wind, birds, insects, or disposal.

" I feel they are safe to send almost anywhere, because they are already there."

I know some alcoholics. Should I supply them with more booze cause I know they are already there?

"but there are no fast and hard rules about what is good and what is bad."

There may not be enough hard and fast rules but their are some.

Here are some specific to Alaska http://www.invasivespecies.gov/laws/state/ak.shtml

and here is the law in Texas:

The State of Texas doesn't just frown on the possesion of harmful or potentially harmful exotic plants. It is illegal to posses these plants in Texas. Possession of any prohibited plant species is a Class B Parks and Wildlife Code Misdemeanor punishable by

* a fine of not less than $200 nor more than $2000,
* a jail term not to exceed 180 days, or
* both a fine AND imprisonment.
http://www.ntwgs.org/articles/illegalAquatics.html


and btw, that is per plant.

This message was edited Nov 21, 2004 2:36 PM

True Weez-plant diseases/pathogens as well as insects harbored in the soil is a big problem, so you may be right that countries are more forgiving with seed material.
And take NZ and Australia-they can be over run in short order just because of the geographical isolation…..

I'm curious then is it fair to say that it's ok to send out Purple Loosestrife because it's already there?

I know states have different laws, but here in Colorado as in many other states, the appropriate agency has already made the decision....all are treated the same...

From the Colorado Noxious Weed Management Act....
35-5.5-104.5. Intentional introduction, cultivation, or sale of noxious weeds - costs.
(1)(a) It shall be unlawful to intentionally introduce, cultivate, sell, offer for sale, or knowingly allow to grow in violation of this article or any rule promulgated hereunder in this state any noxious weed designated pursuant to section 35-5.5-108 (2)(a);

In this case there seems to be a very hard and fast rule about what's good and bad, lol!!
And again not so much as whether a particular gardener likes it or not. It is interesting how some may think that even in tamarisk infested or purple loosestrife infested lands wildlife is plentiful. Wildlife very well may be present in record numbers, but they may also be (and frequently are) nusiance, exotic species and not natives species (much the same way noxious plant species are crowding our native plants). Many fail to look at the entire (effected, affected and infected) ecosystem.

I would offer that although we can see in PDB where the plant is growing: A) there is no opportunity to see where it does not grow-only places it does, and B) just because it grows someplace does not mean it's not a problem or on a noxious weed list, yes??
Not faulting the system here and how it’s set up (don’t see how it could be done otherwise), I’m just making an observation.
Taken in context with the comments section, we do get a little better picture of where it might be a problem.

Wow Weez, you have leafy spurge, russian knapweed and canada thistle up there? My condolances on having to deal with these. Russian knapweed-a bear to get rid of especially with its allelopathic substances fouling the soil so natives and non-natives alike have a hard time establishing.

Thanks everyone for the links to Alaskan Invasives and seed regulations. I have downloaded some of them as references. Some of the plants are familiar to me, and some I have never seen. Your condolences are accepted, caron. I have seen neither Russian knapweed or Canadian thistle here, but Alaska is a very big state.

Having read from the links, I found that white clover was first introduced to Alaska in the Mat-valley farm areas during the 20's when folks came to Alaska to escape the Depression. I had not seen it here in Seward until they began using it as an erosion control along the highways. Sadly, they probably pick plants that will choke out native plants that are considered 'weeds'. The links are all quite good and food for thought.

Surely, unless seeds are inspected, we are all breaking the law by sending them in the mail, or at least that is my assumption from the reading. If that is the point made on this thread, the point is well taken. Do I intend to quit trading at this point... it's food for thought. Would I expect any of you to trade with me... I certainly wouldn't. I respect your opinions and your convictions. We need more of that in the world today... respect for others.

Pville, I was a bartender for years. I served many alcoholics. They were our bread and butter. It wasn't nice, it wasn't fun. If I had not, I would have been fired. If the bar had not, they would have had to close down. The law says it is illegal to serve an alcoholic. This is the sad but true issue here. If you can get everyone to agree on an issue, laws can be passed and enforced. If not, we break the law if we do not have, or cannot afford to have, a social or ecological conscience.

Well Weez, if you come across them give me a hollar-plenty of experience dealing with these buggers-not always successful mind you but sometimes what doesn't work proves to be an invaluable lesson!

Ah-h yes the best of intentions gone bad by those in charge, "...until they began using it as an erosion control along the highways..."

Thanks, caron. I've been trying to muster up a bit of interest among Alaskan subscribers to visit the Cool Climate forum. Maybe I can find out if these plants are growing in other areas.

"Pville, I was a bartender for years. I served many alcoholics. They were our bread and butter. It wasn't nice, it wasn't fun. If I had not, I would have been fired. If the bar had not, they would have had to close down. The law says it is illegal to serve an alcoholic. This is the sad but true issue here. If you can get everyone to agree on an issue, laws can be passed and enforced. If not, we break the law if we do not have, or cannot afford to have, a social or ecological conscience."

Weezingreens,
I can appreciate and identify with those circumstances and am greatful that I am no longer in a position of having to chose between breaking the law and putting food on my family's table. Perhaps in this regard I chose a poor analogy since seed trading is not how any of us make our living...or is it?

Our Government has made the growing and posession of Opium Poppies ( P. somniferum as we all know) illegal. Having the seed is OK,but not the plant.They based this I suppose on some study or other,or on some groups Lobbyist, or perhaps the thought that people would be scraping seed pods and refining opium to supplement their income.For whatever reason,reasonable or not,it is a law of the land and growing them for their pure beauty and/or ornamental use is still a technical violation of the law. Is it illegal ? yes. Is it enforced ? not that I'm aware of, unless it is by a complaint or perhaps a flagrant public display.Although most of the laws covering plants are well founded and protect us and the environment, some have to be taken with a grain of salt and a bit of common sense.Until the fuzz busts me I'll keep growing ALL the varieties of poppy I can get,and am adamantly opposed to scratching even the tiniest wee bitty insignificant seed pod.
Sometimes I rant a little more than others.Sorry

balbenie
can you post the link please??

I looked it up on the web a year or so ago but don't remember exactly where.I think it was with the narcotics laws. I'll try to find it again.

Pville, I can't imagine this seed trading thing being profitable! LOL! I don't ask for SASE, so mostly it costs me money. I think the law is pretty strict concerning selling seeds... or perhaps better enforced. I've often wondered if the folks selling seeds on ebay have certificates to do so. I don't trade, sell or buy on ebay, but I do stumble onto it during Googles searches. In fact, I once saw an add for Antique Flemish poppy seeds and my photograph! It wasn't even the right picture.

I guess so much of this is an issue of conscience. We all pick our points of conscience or integrity, and it's not all the same for everyone. Someone once told me that a weed is just a plant that grows where you don't want it to. I'm sure the person that planted the vetch at the sealife center thought it a pretty plant, and it is. I'm sure it is native to somewhere, and I'm sure it serves its purpose there... probably where survival depends on taking over.

If you talk to the old timers around Seward, they sometimes mention plants they used to see in the woods and along roadsides that are just not there anymore. I suppose those of us that moved here, built here, gardened here...live here are to blame.

I am too old and fat to do much hiking, but I often send my digital cameras on my son's treks. The wonderful pictures make me glad it is a hard trek for most. The mountainsides are pristine, the plants live in harmony. Meanwhile, we gardeners down plant all sorts of exotics for the birds to feed on and carry. It is a wonder that more problems don't occur, but perhaps nature often makes successful spread difficult. That's a good thing.

I looked it up on the web a year or so ago but don't remember exactly where.I think it was with the narcotics laws. I'll try to find it again. Found it. Controlled Substances Act, Chapter 13 , 21 USCS Sec 801 A (1996),
Important part is : Schedule ll (roman numerals) (a) (1,2&3).Interesting.

Got a link, balvenie?

Sorry. I don't know how to link things.I just googled "controlled Substances Act" and went to a couple of the choices.

Yes link it please...
By the way, the Controlled Substances Act was revised, I believe in Spring of 2003....

I also believe that the key is the intent to manufacture or extract opium and the number of plants involved.
Seeds are not illegal, I do know that. However, many spices are irridated before coming to the grocery to eliminate contaminats and pathogens, with the process rendering seeds sterile as i understand it.....

Found the site again : www.usdoj.gov/dea/agency/csa.htm Thats a mouthful. Have to scroll down a while to get to the Sched. ll (a) (1,2,3) part.

Way to go on figuring out how to post the link Robert. And you are right, it sure is a long document LOL.....I found Section 801A but still haven't been able to find a Sched II (a). If the specific part you are referring to is not that long, maybe you could cut and past it here?

Here is another more recent--some of the definitions may be from the earlier Code tho.....
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/04nov20031500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2001/aprqtr/21cfr1308.12.htm

from what Robert posted:
(17) The term "narcotic drug" means any of the following whether produced directly or indirectly by extraction from substances of vegetable origin, or independently by means of chemical synthesis, or by a combination of extraction and chemical synthesis:

(A) Opium, opiates, derivatives of opium and opiates, including their isomers, esters, ethers, salts, and salts of isomers, esters, and ethers, whenever the existence of such isomers, esters, ethers, and salts is possible within the specific chemical designation. Such term does not include the isoquinoline alkaloids of opium.
(B) Poppy straw and concentrate of poppy straw.
(C) Coca leaves, except coca leaves and extracts of coca leaves from which cocaine, ecgonine, and derivatives of ecgonine or their salts have been removed.
(D) Cocaine, its salts, optical and geometric isomers, and salts of isomers.
(E) Ecgonine, its derivatives, their salts, isomers, and salts of isomers.
(F) Any compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any quantity of any of the substances referred to in subparagraphs (A) through (E).

(18) The term "opiate" means any drug or other substance having an addiction-forming or addiction-sustaining liability similar to morphine or being capable of conversion into a drug having such addiction-forming or addiction-sustaining liability.

(19) The term "opium poppy" means the plant of the species Papaver somniferum L., except the seed thereof.

(20) The term "poppy straw" means all parts, except the seeds, of the opium poppy, after mowing.

And (1997)

SCHEDULE II.
(a) Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any of the following substances whether produced directly or indirectly by extraction from substances of vegetable origin, or independently by means of chemical synthesis, or by a combination of extraction and chemical synthesis:
(1) Opium and opiate, and any salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium or opiate.
(2) Any salt, compound, derivative, or preparation thereof which is chemically equivalent or identical with any of the substances referred to in clause (1), except that these substances shall not include the isoquinoline alkaloids of opium.
(3) Opium poppy and poppy straw.
(4) coca leaves, except coca leaves and extracts of coca leaves from which cocaine, ecgonine, and derivatives of ecgonine or their salts have been removed; cocaine, its salts, optical and geometric isomers, and salts of isomers; ecgonine, its derivatives, their salts, isomers, and salts of isomers; or any compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any quantity of any of the substances referred to in this paragraph.

However, there seems to be no specific penaty for growing the poppy or poppy straw??? Section 841. Prohibited acts A
SCHEDULE II.
(a) Unless specifically excepted or unless listed in another schedule, any of the following substances whether produced directly or indirectly by extraction from substances of vegetable origin, or independently by means of chemical synthesis, or by a combination of extraction and chemical synthesis:
(1) Opium and opiate, and any salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium or opiate.
(2) Any salt, compound, derivative, or preparation thereof which is chemically equivalent or identical with any of the substances referred to in clause (1), except that these substances shall not include the isoquinoline alkaloids of opium.
(3) Opium poppy and poppy straw.
(4) coca leaves, except coca leaves and extracts of coca leaves from which cocaine, ecgonine, and derivatives of ecgonine or their salts have been removed; cocaine, its salts, optical and geometric isomers, and salts of isomers; ecgonine, its derivatives, their salts, isomers, and salts of isomers; or any compound, mixture, or preparation which contains any quantity of any of the substances referred to in this paragraph.

(d) Any person who knowingly or intentionally--
(1) possesses a listed chemical with intent to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this title;
(2) possesses or distributes a listed chemical knowing, or having reasonable cause to believe, that the listed chemical will be used to manufacture a controlled substance except as authorized by this title; or
(3) with the intent of causing the evasion of the recordkeeping or reporting requirements of section 310 [21 USCS Section 830], or the regulations issued under that section, receives or distributes a reportable amount of any listed chemical in units small enough so that the making of records or filing of reports under that section is not required;
shall be fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

Thanks Caron....I think my eyes have become crossed at this point. Still couldn't find that verbiage but no matter. The way I read it is this:
(17) (B) defines poppy straw as a narcotic drug.
(19) puts Papaver somniferum L in the category of 17A.
Schedule II (d) (3)) makes it punishable to possess them. If you are growing them you possess them.

Ok, now I have a headache from wading through the legaleese. Can we go out and shoot the lawyer that wrote it now?

edited to fix reference....meant to reference d (3) instead of d (2)

This message was edited Nov 21, 2004 8:02 PM

Yes I believe you have it right but there are no fines or jail terms or anything tied to growing or having the plants or straw that I could find so where does THAT leave us, LOL?
There are penalties for manufacturing or extracting opium however......

Well I think it does. I read the plant (except the seed for some reason) to be as listed chemical (Schedule II (a) so possession (to include growing of the plant) is punishable by (d). The reason growing it can't be enforced is because "knowingly and intentional" clause. All a gardener has to say is "but officer, I have no idea how it got there and I didn't even know what it was".

and what happened to Schedule II (b) and (c) LOL

"And I wasn't planning on doing anything like extracting drugs form them"
So long as you don't have acres and acres or ripening poppy heads with cut marks on them leaking latex.....

ok...so now remind me why we did all this? Oh ya...to get right back to what Robert posted in the first place two and a half hours ago...LOL.......Was an interesting and educational exercize though :-)

sigh...are we hopeless or what????

Schedule b and c are other substances not being discussed as of yet, lol!!

I'm guessing that refers to what is known as the Federal Seed Act. If so, its preamble states "An Act to regulate interstate and foreign commerce in seeds; to require labeling and to prevent misrepresentation of seeds in interstate commerce; to require certain standards with respect to certain imported seeds; and for other purposes. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of Americani Congress assembled, that this Act may be cited as the "Federal Seed Act.".

But the next sentence is a puzzle.

Unless I'm mistaken, there's a leap in logic at work here. Seeds traded (through DG, other websites and the SSE program, for example) are not subject to the same regulations as commercial seed packagers, noxious weeds notwithstanding.

That harkens back to Weezingreen's comment that the onus is - for all practical, and probably legal, purposes - on the recipient of the seed, since it is they who will be found in possession of seeds (or plants) that are deemed noxious by their state or federal regulations.

Should a person knowingly collect and distribute noxious weed seeds? No, but I give credit that most traders here and elsewhere wouldn't intentionally do that, with or without regulations in place.

Terry
Maybe this will clear things up......

Apparently individual State Seed Laws are more specific and cover trades if you live in that specific state...Colorado seems to cover this with a blanket statement:
"(f) Produces seed for sale" means: producing seed for exchange in Colorado for money or anything of value, including goods or services..."
So short of giving seeds away trades are covered in the law if you or your business resides in Colorado.

Texas seems to be much the same as I read it (addressing vegetable seeds)
"...A person who sells, offers, exposes or otherwise distributes for sale vegetable seed within Texas for planting purposes must obtain a Vegetable Seed License from the Department..."

Of course, State law can and often is stricter than Federal law....