Invasive Species by State Project

I ran into something that I really liked located here regarding the ultimate Garden Foes-
https://www.denix.osd.mil/denix/Public/ES-Programs/Conservation/Invasive/understand.html

For Pville, I'd like to add this since you are working in lists-
"Here's something to consider; As Faith Thompson Campbell (1997) puts it, 'We should be humble; we may never fully understand the invasion process, particularly for each of the hundreds of potentially invasive species in each of our many ecosystems. One truth is clear: as time passes, many species will spread to new areas or increase in density if controlling actions are delayed.' Putting 'out of place' plants on plant lists is, in most cases, the only way weed scientists have been able to create effective prevention programs because scientific proof is difficult to come by (Parker and Reichard 1998; see Results for the industry's desire for scientific proof)."
source: http://envstudies.brown.edu/thesis/2000/undergrad/mhall/IPlants/Discussion.html#Education

That is so true. It becomes somewhat subjective when you start listing potentially invasive on the basis simply that it is non-native, but how many times have people waited until after the fact to identify it as invasive and have been in the position then of management and control and containment rather than prevention. On the other hand, if the world stayed 100% native it would make gardening pretty boring and limited. At least being aware of the potential impact and in some cases, symptoms of many invasives (i.e. fast growing, adaptable, etc. etc.) and not contributing to known or obviously likely invasions would go a long way from where we seem to be now.

This message was edited Nov 16, 2004 11:42 PM

I just hate to be left out of a title, but they are the work horses. (;>)
Those are some really good sites, I have so much to learn, so much to do, and so little time.

ya know....it might be useful if we could get all of the links we have posted on this subject together in one place...I've bookmarked some of them but not others and since we seem to be a topic in search of a home at the moment, they are probably spread across about 5 different forums right now.

I' been filing them in my favorites under weed warrior in my favorites, but don't know if I got them all.

well I guess at some point maybe we should decide on a thread and gather what we have posted on this subject so far all into one place since it doesn't look like we are going to have a forum for it per se.

Well, we've made it to GF, (Good Folks looking after 8th rock), I have 8 on my list.

Just hang in there troops, as time permits we will act, and w/action comes results (cannot remember which miliary commanders speach that is from but it looks good on the screen).

I am still trying to find the updated (new) management plan that was supossed to be done this year (by exectuive order). All I can find is the old one but I haven't had time to really read & digest it yet.

I believe a differance can be made - small steps move you a little ways, but if you make many of them?

sorry rambleing now - long night toteing large heavy pieces of glass - thank you all for your interest in a subject that is very important to me.

Dyson

Aye Aye Commander :-)

Nancy have a good night - guess this is the new thread to work from - I'm so exasted - can"t stay up longer, catch ya'll later

You too Dyson....I'm close to nodding off too...cya tomorrow.

Just so y'all don't think I have lost it completely, just letting you know that I'm gonna cut and paste some of the posts from the previous thread we had (the is it legal one) over to here so we can keep that info (especially the links) all in one place. If I skip any you think need to be here or have some from other threads that would be relevant please add them as well.

Good Idea, I have to get outside = warmest day I've had in awhile.

Thanks for the fantastic work you are doing and have done.

This is the intiating post of that thread and the first few responses which indicate (by those few posters) it was a subject that either shouldn't be brought up or that there are some incorrect assumptions about the movement of plant materials across state lines.

PvillePlanter
Pflugerville, TX
Zone 8b
Oct 27, 2004
10:30 AM
There are an awful lot of international, federal, and individual state restictions on moving plants (whether seed, live plants, bare roots, etc. between states, whether by personal transport or through a mail carrier. The concerns are generally those related to pest infestations or plants that are considered invasive or an ecological threat to native plants in a given area. My understanding is that these laws apply not only to commercial nurseries but to individual gardeners. Am I wrong on this?

SSSHHH

SHHH again.

oh well.

So far we can still send seeds in the mail throughout the States and to other countries.
We living in the states are not to receive seeds from other countries, without certain certification. Which is expensive.
As far as plants, we can mail them from state to state as long as all soil is washed off the roots. With the exception of a few, California and Arizona on some plants, if not all.

Oh-oh, "shouldn't be brought up." LOL. Got a link to that thread?

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465242/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/455137/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/321930
earlier threads regarding the mailing of seeds including how to disguise them when mailing and inadvisability of doing so

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/468765/ DG thread requesting new forum for NA invasives.

http://www.jlhudsonseeds.net/WhiteList.htm rebuttal by a commercial nursery objecting to restrictive policies regarding the sale and distribution of invasive species.

http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=noxious.cgi USDA invasive plants site

http://davesgarden.com/pdb/advanced.php?nn[16]=0&nn[1]=0&nn[2]=0&nn[3]=0&nn[4]=0&nn[5]=0&nn[6]=0&nn[7]=0&nn[8]=0&nn[9]=1&nn[23]=0&nn[10]=0&nn[12]=0&sname=Plants&Search.x=54&Search.y=18
results from PDB search for "May be a noxious weed or invasive"

http://davesgarden.com/terms/go/500.html DG definitions of invasive
http://davesgarden.com/terms/go/2110.html DG definitions of noxious weeds
http://davesgarden.com/terms/go/2111.html DG definitions of undesirable plant species

http://www.invasive.org/eastern/srs/ Invasive plants of the eastern US
http://www.bullcreek.net/invasiveplants.html Bull Creek Foundation invasives page
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_environment/invasive_species/page.cfm?pageID=1113 Union of Concerned Scientists invasive page
http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/factmain.htm#pllists National Park Service Alien Plant Invaders page
http://www.gwf.org/thinkagain.htm Article on invasives, Georgia native plant society
http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/ The Nature Conservancy invasive species initiative

http://www.dcr.state.va.us/dnh/invlist.pdf Virginia Invasives list

http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/5-8art1.htm article regarding bradford pears

http://www.invasivespecies.gov/laws/execorder.shtml Executive Order 13112 of February 3, 1999 -- Invasive Species
http://www.invasivespecies.gov/laws/congress108.shtml Invasive Species Bills - 108th Congress

http://issg.appfa.auckland.ac.nz/database/welcome/ Global data base of invasives

http://www.ag.state.co.us/DPI/weeds/statutes/weedrules.pdf Colorado Noxious Weed Act

http://invader.dbs.umt.edu/Noxious_Weeds/noxlist.asp University of Montana Noxious Weed Summary

http://www.fleppc.org/ Florida Exotic Pest Plant Council

http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/index.htm The Plant Conservation Alliance's Alien Plant Working Group Weeds Gone Wild Project






.


This message was edited Nov 17, 2004 10:34 AM edited to fix broken links

This message was edited Nov 17, 2004 10:35 AM

John,

It is the very first link in my list of links post above

Ok.

These are all from http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465242/
Some other comments and info I wanted to capture in one place. Paste may not include full text of a post so have put poster and date/time of post in ( ) at end as reference to full text of the post. Note: times listed are Central. More to come in additional posts, didn't want to make this one any longer.
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there are always risks of doing ecological damage by importing/exporting plant material in any form from country to country and state to state. Even thinking that you can contain the plant within your own yard can be a bit naive. Birds and butterflies and bees are not likely to cooperate with your plan and the seeds end up being spread. (PvillePlanter 10/27/04 3:57PM)
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Seeds, rhizomes, and bulbs are not treated differently than an actual plant. These laws apply to all of us. Noxious weeds are noxious weeds and unfortunately we all get punished because of a few bad eggs. You might want to take a look at how Connecticut and Colorado handle exotic invasive plants as they are rather progressive. Florida and Texas have an interesting way of addressing the issues too. There are thousands of volunteers across the US who go out and try their best to remove species that wreak havoc in the environment and quite frankly, it offends me when people do it on purpose because they take the stance that "just one more plant" won't make a difference. Well, hundreds and thousands of people who take this stance can and do make an incredible impact.

Technically, there are no bad plants... just some plants planted in the wrong place as in on the wrong continent. Add to this the fact that the average tax payer is absolutely clueless that he/she is getting stuck with the clean up bill and we will have created a heck of a lot of confusion. I don't mind mentioning these issues in a gardening forum where people are tolerant and respectful but to mention it to one of my neighbors growing Dame's Rocket while weeding around her Queen Anne's Lace and fertilizing her English Ivy and Lily of The Valley... who has a pair of burning bushes flanking her front doorway with a Bradford Pear displayed prominently in her front lawn is asking for me to be viewed by her as someone in need of a nice snug white jacket. These plants are extremely popular. Supply and Demand. People aren't going to part with their beloved plants unless there are laws forcing them to do so and even then there will always be those who knowingly circumvent those laws.

Right now, our limits are defined by Country as well as state lines. State lines will look rather arbitrary when viewed from the perspective of growing conditions. Which for all practical purposes round robins us to personal responsibility The best thing we can all do is attempt to keep learning and promote education. Good communication will be paramount in the years to come and it will better enable people to make the best decisions for them. I for one began taking a serious look at these complex issues when entire subdivisions in and around me began incorporating bylaws that stated it was against their covenants to plant anything other than a native plant. Ugh, do we really all want to end up like those subdivisions some time down the road? I certainly don't. There are just too many exotic non native plants out there that are well behaved that do not threaten native plant communities and entire ecosystems.

Here’s a really great book that brought the issues into perspective for me, “Noah’s Garden” by Sara Stein.

(Equilibrium 11/10/04 11:40 PM)
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If we do not care for our own area of the earth, we will lose .... period. (Dyson 11/11/04 12:03 AM)
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Wandazflowers brings up an interesting point-that plants are moving freely via e-bay and the government is not interfering.
Because they can't. There's not enough time or money to hire people to search e-bay or the internet for violations. Regardless of the law here in Colorado how could this be enforced except at the end user-meaning after it's growing in someones garden? Are you going to support a national tax to hire me and others to track down and try to prosecute those illegal sales on the internet?

As Equilbrium points out, " People aren't going to part with their beloved plants unless there are laws forcing them to do so and even then there will always be those who knowingly circumvent those laws." Too true!! I would love to think that education alone will solve the problem. In time it may. But, we still need strong regulation to slow the problem. People will not do what they can't get away with.

As far as regulating the movement of seeds across borders there is a huge disconnect between what each state department of agriculture regulates and what the Federal government regulates. Understandably so-each state has the right to do what it need/thinks important. The problem however is that seeds or plants of just about anything on a state banned list can be shipped from other countries into the US legally thru APHIS with their blessing because it's not on their banned list. Those banned plants/seeds go on to places where it is patently illegal to grow!!
I've had this conversation with many-in particular, current members/employees of the USDA APHIS regulatory team for importation of biologoical control and weed regulation. Imagine my surprize when I learned that this scenario takes place all the time. Although they are cognizant and very concerned about the problem it's not within their regulatory authority!! And, that in order to get around the various state laws sellers are increasingly turning to the internet mail order buisness where addresses are not published, phones are not needed and they can't be tracked!!

Just for giggles I have a few searches set on e-bay for plants that are common problems (toadflax, Russian olive, tamarisk, dames rocket, african rue, ox-eye daisy, tree of heaven). I get hits on a daily basis for at least one of the above and all but the tamarisk). Sure, some of the sellers have disclaimers that such and such seed or plant cannot be shipped to certain states. Many do not and most do not want to hear it even if asked not to sell this with in a particular state. Some sellers clearly state that it is solely the buyers responsibility, and while I agree that we need to take responsibility for what we plant I also know that the law here states differently-sellers, buyers, growers are treated alike under the law and it's still illegal. To me this is a cop-out. If I know the item is illegal in Colorado, sell it anyway BUT state that you the buyer are responsible then I'm off the hook? Not legally and certainly not ethically.

Sellers on e-bay get around selling African Rue (highly invasive and outright banned here and in other states) as an ancient medicinal plant that our ancestors used as well as a "legal hallucenogen". What a bunch of baloney! This is what I was told from a seller on E-bay who is located in a state where the plant is patently illegal to grow, sell pr posess, " The plant is not illegal to posess, sell, or anything else. I do believe your right about it being classified a noxious weed. But as such the cultivation law doesn't apply to a back yard gardener growing a few plants for their own use. It would only be illegal to cultivate it commercially." Here's another, " Peganum Harmala [african rue] is a sacred and medicinal plant. It is not illegal. It is classified as a “noxious plant” to increase awareness of its overpopulation due to our American forefathers who planted this wonderful herb in much to large a quantity." Didn't know that our American forefathers arrived in this county in the 1930's.

People will say and sell anything if and only if there's a market for it. Want to make a difference?? Do not buy from companies that do business in these plants! But in the mean time I want strong laws in place (and not for traders with the best intentions-they can be cured with education, lol).
(caron 11/11/04 7:55 AM

continuation of info from thread http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465242/

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I understand the problem. Fortunately, most of us are not sending invasive plants but rather cultivars that have crossed the ocean for centuries: iris, daylilies, lilies, peonies, phlox and house plants.

I know that many plants that are merely a annual here in Iowa can become very invasive in warmer states that have no killing frost or where the seeding can be overwhelming. I about died when Mom bought 5 Trumpet vines for the fence in my garden. HELP! And she bought the darn things from a well known national catalog. They would smother my whole garden in a few years if I let them!

I agree that we need to be cautious. Who hasn't seen the kudzu crawling up from the South? Animals & fish with no natural predators can be a problem too. Coyotes re- introduced into Iowa to lower our deer population have destroyed our quail.

The variety in our gardens is a result of our seeking rare cultivars not available locally. And DG allows us to trade or share plants/seeds with other gardeners who may not be able to afford to buy them. I am always willing to share. (Wandasflowers 11/11/04 8:07 AM)
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Sadly, I am for stiffer regulation. II don't see any way around it. Looks as if that's the direction we are going anyway.

And Dyson, you might want to start a new thread. I received several PMs from people who seem desperate to get rid of that Tree Of Heaven. For the most part, they seem to be merely cutting it down and that's the big problem as it will just come back a hundred fold if not treated. Maybe if there is a new thread on just getting rid of that particular plant, they can all hop on. I do know that chainsawing it and immediately painting the stump with Tordon RTU or full strength Garlon 3 or full strenth concentrated BrushBGon works quite well as that's what we used to eliminate that monster and the darn tree IS aleopathic so as many of those trees as we can get rid of is great!

I haven't been doing any trading lately as I have more than enough on my plate but I have been sending out seed of mine that people want just because I love it when somebody shows an interest in a native plant. I must admit, I am also sending out some hosta seed for somebody to try to germinate! I did have somebody ask me for Queen Anne's Lace seed last week. I basically told her what the issues were with that plant and offered her a substitute of both Veronicastrum and native yarrow. She really liked both of those and took them. For every nasty out there, I have found there to exist a multitude of responsible alternatives.
(Equilibrium 11/11/04 8:16 and 8:44 AM)
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I have not heard of these two plants you are talking about. What is wrong with them? Are they invasive? I looked them up on the database and they are nice looking plants. Didn't see any comments on them there. (hemlady 11/11/04 8:51 AM)

Hemlady
Both are invasive. From mildly to horribly depending on the location. They are banned in some areas with more info coming in from gardeners/weed managers/states/counties of invasions in new places that are hard to eradicate.

I'm gonna take a chance here and thow out something. I do agree with Wandasflowers that many gardeners are seeking rare cultivars that are hard to find or just something different to grow-hence trading is a great way to do this. I have no specific issue with sharing or trading here or anywhere else and do not want to see this practice end....

But here's something to think about, and I am NOT faulting anyone, just making another observation.
Did a search here for trade items and this is what I found:

Kudzu - 1 (wanted)
Arundo donax-1 (wanted)
Tree of Heaven-1
Dames Rocket-10
water hyacinth-8
Bradford pear-1
Russian olive-1
Japanese honeysuckles-4
Toadflax- (linaria dalmatica or L. vulgaris)-5
Oxe-eye daisy-6
African Rue-2
burning bush=Kochia scoparoia-2 (1 wanted)
Queen Ann's lace-5
myrtle spurge-1
cypress spurge-2
horsetail-2
purple loosestrife-3
Loosestrife all varieties except purple -13 (5 wanted)
scotch thistle-1
scotch broom-1
English Ivy-7 (1 wanted)
Burning bush- 6 (3 wanted)
St John's wort-2

Ok, I'm not suggesting that anyone be banned from offering these nor would even I suggest it. These are small amounts in the grand scheme of things to be sure.

is this a problem? How do we educate then without coming off as eco-fanatics (eco terrorists, eco-nazis, whatever)?
Do we bother? And are we arrogant enough to think that if we educate then people will automatically "see the light" and see things "our" way? (caron 11/11/04 10:08 AM)

continuation of info from http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465242/

Some people are just clueless that one plant is invasive in one area, but not in another. Of course this is probably the reason for "White List" proposal. While your state may have banned something, it may be widely planted in another (even by the state itself). Things like Ox-eye Daisy and St. John's Wort are sold and planted here. Queen Anne's Lace is allowed to grow (and go to seed) here as a wildflower. Things known for invasiveness around here - Elephant Ear, Japanese Honeysuckle, Ligustrum/Privet, Castor Bean, Chinaberry, Water Hyacinth, Winter Honeysuckle Bush (sold in the recent co-op), Nandina, Chinese Tallow. How many people outside of this area grow them, not knowing this? I know I have been guilty of growing stuff that just barely lives around here and would be clueless that it would take over elsewhere. The White List proposal is a bureaucrats way they think they are protecting us from our own ignorance. (sweezel 11/11/04 10:43 AM)
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Perhaps some folks would be willing to volunteer to start a separate or sub data base of invasives that contain all this great info by plant, including the areas in which they are invasive and why? I have done many searches trying to come up with some sort of all incompassing list and have not found one. In fact the one you posted, caron, is the best I have found. Thank you. I'm not anywhere near as knowledgable about invasives as many of you are, but I would be willing to help in whatever way I can to put such a data base together.

I really like the seed trading idea here and would like to participate, but my ignorance of what is invasive in other parts of the country and the world is what is keeping me from doing it. If there were a data base where I could look up plants that I might want or have to trade with to find out if and where they were invasive, I know I personally would feel much more comfortable about trading. I would also really hate to see DG be forced to stop this trading altogether because of any lack of oversight or individual accountability for responsible trading. Let's face it, in the event this practice came to the negative light of regulators, it would be far easier for them to just shut down DG altogether than to go after individual traders who have or do advertised invasive for trade.
(PvillePlanter 11/11/04 11:18 AM)
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Kudzu, once thought to invade only the southern reaches of the country has been found far outside its known range. Clearly we don't know everything (and in this arena may know nothing at all). But it seems that if the possibility of invasiveness exists even in another region of the country, this may be reason enough to go think about looking for somthing a bit more suitable to the area?

Here's another example: Tamarisk (salt cedar) which is a problem in the southwest (yes, once again our own VERY BIG mistake) and thought to be limited severly by elevation has been found growing at 9500' in the Colorado Rockies. Is it spreading? Well, not rapidly that's for sure. But it is alive and reproducing. A well known and respected, large nursery in New Mexico sells and recommends Tamarisk in a state where it's illegal and a major problem. Tamarisk does not particularly like the conditions in the midwest but on a trip to the Chicago area this summer it is clearly growing there too. I am really left wondering what it is that we don't know about all this and what other invasive plants will prove to be highly adapted in someone elses "unsuitable" region/climate, etc...Not sure that I want to find out in 20 years that that ox-eye daisy has spread to every state and is now the poster child for noxious weeds like tamarisk is here in the southwest, or Purple loosestrife is elsewhere.

I would however urge eveyone to read entire the text of the "white list" proposal and make up their own minds and not rely on seed/plant seller web sites (who have the most to loose dollar wise) for out-of-context information that is so common on the internet.
(caron 11/11/04 11:36 AM)
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Ok, writ my name down in the "clueless" column. How and where do I find out what is on my paticular state's (NC) 'banned' list? I trade seeds and plants all the time, and I had no idea all this was going on! Help, someone! (shazbot 11/11/04 11:54 AM)

shazbot3
go to the link I posted and find your stae under the "state Noxious Weed Reports" section. Your list was updated sometime last year so it may/may not be complete These are legally defined noxious weeds only. It does not include some of those we are talking about here-invasive plants listed in one state and not another that you may/may not grow (or may want to grow) (caron 11/11/04 12:04 PM)

continuation from http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465242/
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Wow, somebody just touched upon my single greatest concern. You may not realize it but this has already happened... "this practice came to the negative light of regulators". It is only a matter of time before the "Powers That Be" are in a position to take action. And they will take action once a systemetized means by which to regulate and enforce same is identified. I would hope that individuals who are perpetuating the spread of exotic invasives would be held personally accountable for their actions however our government (those beaurocrats) has a history of over compensating and practicing overkill in an attempt to make a statement while righting wrongs. One simple little court order can blow open the shroud of secrecy as pertains to the anonymity we enjoy by having user names here. I do not want to see a day when we all lose the ability to trade plants and/or seed amongst ourselves. I would much prefer taking a few baby steps and disallowing the trade of any and all seeds and/or plants deemed to be unlawful with out the appropriate permitting. Water Hyacinth comes to mind since it carries particularly stiff fines in quite a few states. There are others. Why not police ourselves and... dare I say it... practice personal responsibility by PMing people we see who are either wanting seeds/plants that are listed noxious weeds or listing seeds/plants that are listed noxious weeds. I am of the opinion that more often than not, the tendency of human beings toward good is not so dissimilar from water flowing downwards. I whole heartedly believe that if the vast majority of people know a particular plant is illegal or on the hall of shame list for their state that they will not allow it to change hands. Just my humble opinion.

his is an extremely valid point, "I am really left wondering what it is that we don't know about all this and what other invasive plants will prove to be highly adapted in someone elses "unsuitable" region/climate, etc..." I could fill entire encylopedias with what I don't know. Kudzu, thought to be incapable of surviving in my region, is marching right toward me. Tamarisk, already mentioned by caron above, is here too. Tamarisk wasn't supposed to be able to survive here nor was Kudzu. But they have and are surviving quite possibly due to adaptive mutations??? I would be a proponent of the white list. Not unduly restrictive and definitely in the best interests of the tax payers.
(Equilibrium 11/11/04 12:07 PM)
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Thing is, the PDB says they MIGHT be noxious or invasive (which btw I'm not sure I understand the distinction between) by which I have been assuming they ARE in some areas and NOT in others. The federal one is more specific, but if I were a trader, it would be awfully time consuming to look up each seed for each state to know where I should not be sending them. I actually did try to do that in a couple of cases and gave up because I just don't have that much time to devote to hunting down the info on a state by state basis.. This is really the only reason I have chosen thus far not to participate in long distance swapping.

It is exactly those differences state to state and country to country that concern me. I am much more comfortable trading within my own area at local or at least within state swaps because I do have at least a passing knowledge of what is invasive, noxious, and undesirable here. However, IMHO, when hundreds of us actively encourage and conduct interstate and interactionational free trade, the potential for doing harm become exponential. My suggestion for a DB specific to INUs (don't know if that is an existing acronym of if I just now made it up...LOL) was as a possible means to continue the wonderful idea of trading, but make it easier, safer, and more comfortable for us to do so responsibly. I can see however, given all the hype, confusion, multiple definitions, and lag time in identification, how this might be too major an undertaking for us.
(PvillePlanter 11/11/04 12:09 PM and 12:33 PM)
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langbr
Your post illustrates the problem well and the mass confusion surrounding this issue for all of us!!

Allium textile is listed as invasive on DG. But, it is listed as a native plant by the Plants National Database. PND also lists Allium as an invasive genus (but not specific species) in the state of Arkansas. It is not listed in the big list of all legally controlled weeds under the name of Allium textile on this site.
Someone on DG listed it as invasive but not where it's invasive and we absolutely no idea who listed it.
Denver plants.com lists it as non-native but not invasive. Not true-it is a native.
Friends of Sweetwater Park (Georgia) list this as invasive in the park but it's not listed formally in Georgia as regulated.
Ok, that's alot for anyone to wade thru!!

Without further clarification I probably wouldn't trade any allium species to Arkansas. But wouldn't hesitate to trade this in areas of shortgrass prairie where it is a naturally occurring component.

Doubt anyone is going to shut down any trade site unless we are talking about federally listed plants being traded, pville. EDITED PART--Ok after reading Laura's post maybe not-she adds some very good points and concens.

We do the best we can (but need to honestly do the best we can), search out info, and talk to other gardeners on site like this.
(caron 11/11/04 12:46 PM)
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Those who aren't comfortable trading online, don't know what is legal to trade from state to state, or for any other reason don't want to trade, shouldn't trade.

I suspect that if we took steps to enforce the USDA and state laws or provide "official" information about the laws, it would - in all likelihood - backfire on us. You know the saying, no good deed goes unpunished. If we began acting as the government's enforcer of these laws, we would become equally culpable for our members' infractions of said laws. Quite honestly, we have enough on our plates without acting as the seed/plant police or worrying about defending ourselves if/when the government agencies decide to get diligent about seed trading. (Terry 11/11/04 12:49 PM)
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Don't we act as eyes for governmental laws all the time? Isn't it the specific regulatory authority the enforcer?
Yup, I report those I feel are driving so erratically as to pose a threat to others. I'll let the authorities figure out if they were drunk, on meds or just distracted.
Yup, if I see someone steal something from a store I say something. And I have literally grabbed children by the neck that I have seen shoplifting and had them return the items to the clerk. I'll let the clerk decide to press charges or not and the cops do their job calling their parents/taking a complaint.
Yup, I turned my landlord into the County Board of Health. They wouldn't fix the septic when there was raw sewage in the yard for weeks and they refused to do anything about it. I let the State do their job with my tax money.
I have also had polite talks with nursery owners here about selling legally defined noxious weeds. And I turned one person in to both the county and the state when those plants were not removed after a month.
It's funny, I know how much is spent in tax dollars to do weed control and eradication. I don't want to see people fined. But as someone who not only contributres to the tax base but is fully accountable for spending it, it kinda burns me when someone won't simply pull out that dames rocket from the yard when presented information on the law. (caron 11/11/04 1:14 PM)

ok...I'm gonna pause in pulling this info over from the other thread. Is having it here rather than flipping back and forth between the threads going to be helpful or is it just clogging things up? Am I incorporating too much detail? Not enough? Thoughts please. Thanks.

I'm not quite sure what you're envisioning for these posts, but I emailed Pville and offered to move the "Is it Legal" thread from the Seed Trading forum to here. It only takes a few seconds of my time, and would save the copying/pasting efforts (which I know can be tedious and time consuming.)

BTW, here's how Garden Foes got its name:
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/263223/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/265358/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/308523/

And....lest you think me unsympathetic to your cause:
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/294430/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/253988/
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/9088/

In addition to the links in that last thread, here's a link I found and recommended to someone in the Plant Trading forum a while back: http://invader.dbs.umt.edu/noxious_weeds/state_query.asp

Equilibrium,

I hope Dyson and I haven't hijacked the thread you started by consolidating this info here. And now I'm gonna be really brazen and ask if, since we already have, would you mind if I asked Terry to change the title of it so that it references the content better...say to something like "North American Exotic Invasives"?

Thanks for the additional links Terry. I think I have that last one in my links post above (different page, same site).
Again, not to beat a dead horse....the decision has been made and so be it....but just as an observation, I find it interesting that requests for a separate invasives/weeds forum has come up at least 9 times over the last 3 years. It seems to me, that alone would indicate that there continues to be a significant gap that such a forum would fill.

I think exotics/invasives is really a tricky issue. I know there aren't other ways to regulate the movement of plants, but states banning import seems doubtful. The state boundaries we have are just arbitrary lines on the maps. It does no good if I can buy the plant in Illinois but not in Indiana. It's like that old cartoon where the outlaw jumps over the line on the road and says he is in Mexico, the sheriff a foot away can't touch him. It is ridiculous. I don't have an answer, I just get confused when the states don't team up to regulate these things. I work for the Michigan legislature, so I do know how fast government moves (it doesn't) but I just think we need laws that make more sense. Of course, MI is dealing with the emerald ash borer right now by making it illegal to transport firewood around the state, and people are doing it anyway. It seems like some people just don't think the laws mean them, or that the planet belongs to them or something. No answers, just some thoughts.

And I would agree with your observation, except for the fact the count includes the original request for the forum, which resulted in the renaming and broadening of the scope of this forum. (And it also prompted the work I did to load hundreds of invasive species in the PDB, noted as such.) The other requests have been given the same encouragement to use this forum and the PDB. (You can call us many names, but at least we strive to be fair and consistent ;o)

Very good and relevant thoguhts silvi. It sure is a complex issue. In one way though, state lines are not at all arbitrary. .Every state has some sort of organization (some states have many) that is legally responsible and taxpayer funded to identify and control invasive threats to the ecology of that state, to include enforcements of laws that may include fines and imprisonment. The states have teamed up (sorta) and it is to an extent coordinated by the USDA. I agree wholeheartedly both that the laws need to be applied more consistantly and that at the same time individuals need to take responsibility for becoming more aware of the potential harm their action or inaction could be causing.

I'm not sure what the MI DNR is doing about invasives, but I have seen drafts of bills to control plants like purple loosestrife here. The problem is that there is so much infighting amongst the legislators that they don't get passed, and how to fund and enforce? The state police were checking campers' firewood over one of the holiday weekends, if I remember right, but the police have a lot of other things to do! Federal laws won't really work because Texas invasives are likely to be very different from Alaska invasives, just for example. Also, finding out years later that it is invasive in totally different zones than we thought! I just do the best I can with my own garden and hope to lead by example. But someone told me the other day that burning bush is a real nuisance in MI, and those are all over my neighborhood!

Pville have you thought of starting a site of your own to contact people who aren't members on Dave's. I know there's a lot involved in doing your own site, but you seem to have a great passion for this so maybe with Dyson's help you could do that and Sugarweed could fill in all the species that love Florida so much. You must have the same computor skills as Dave did when he started his. Just a thought. Not adding my name just making an observation, lots of long time members have their own sites.

In fact I have Blooms, many times, not for this particular project but a number of other things. The time consuming part is not so much building it as it is maintaining it and sites that I have had in the past have taken more time that I had just for webmaster type functions (not even those really pertaining to the subject matter of the site). I'm assuming your suggestion was just that and not an invitation to leave.

Blooms, I have all I can do to clean-up whats growing with-in 100' of my house. Have I actually participated to the point that I should be included, no. My comment at the top was just one of my poor attempts at being witty.
I really enjoy your post. I hope you weren't asking me to leave either.

Sydney......your levity is anything but poor :-)

Thanks, just loosening up for som efast H & P chatin

lol u go girl!

It's S eye D N E Y

S O R R Y.......You're s l o w and I can't s p e l l lol

Ooops, no no no, just that it sounded like a major project in need of its own overseer. Just considering how much Dave has already done forum wise. Not that you should leave, for heaven's sake - just amazed at the complexity of the project. I am a complete novice at even doing email and tranfering pictures. At least once a month I hit a button whose use seems to be to mess up everything and I don't even know where it is located. So maybe to me it looks bigger than to someone who uses them with the ease I manage the Dewey Decimal System. [or did once upon a time]
Peace, guys, have at it. ;~) Blooms
and I get it that Sugarweed is Sidney LOL