Raised Bed Vegetable Gardening

Here is my paper on seeds collecting and processing the seeds for all who are interested. I couldn't remember which forum or forum part the I stated I was writting a paper on saving seeds. But I have finished it and have posted it on my website foe those interested. The link will take you to my article.


www.gardening101usa.com/seeds/Savingseeds.html

Thank you! I will downlaod it at work tomorrow. I'm sure it will be very helpful!

The link will take you to my article.


And I did read it.

Clearly you've put a lot of work into it but I wonder if it might be better to choose just a few veggies to discuss rather than making so many general comments.

Different veggies need different isolation distances or need to be hand pollinated for pure seed, like squash and melons and cukes. And there are specific techniques that have to be used for different veggies and fruits. You don't process cukes, for instance, the way you do melons or squash.

Peppers have perfect blossoms but still X pollinate almost to 70% thus blossoms need to be bagged or plants caged. Whereas tomatoes, also with perfect blossoms, self pollenize about 95% of the time.

You did say quite a bit about tomatoes which is one fruit I'm very up close and personal with.

You mentioned that seeds can become infected from bacteria in the oils on skin. I'm sorry but that's not true,. There's no bacteria that can infect an intact seedcoat. And microbes that are naturally found in and on humans cannot infect plants or plant parts or seeds. I'm retired now but spent my life teaching Microbiology and related subjects to med students and then college students, so human infectious diseases I know, and extending that, plant diseases I'm also quite familiar with.

You also say that fermentation is a stress. How is it a stress? All seed companies that I know of, I mean producers, initially ferment seeds b/c it is the most gentle way to process them. They then will use TSP or HCL or acetic acid at high concentrations to further rid the seed coat of pathogens b/c fermentation only reduces, but does not eliminate those pathogens.

Whether or not a seed producer company goes beyond just fermentation, for those seeds that need to be fermented, to also process with TSP, etc, is a function of the specific company and also what the retail client wants.

You and I don't live that far a apart and we're lucky since we don't have to worry that much about Fusarium and Verticillum as others elsewhere do. And those living in more southern areas need to worry about Bacterial Canker,for instance, and that pathogen is known to be in the endosperm of the seed and only hot water treatment can eliminate that.

But how is fermentation of seeds a stress? And what does that stress you speak of lead to?

You don't use rotting tomatoes for seed processing? I sure do when I have to. LOL Nothing wrong with that at all,

Again, with so many general statements in your article I think folks could become confused, depending on which specific veggie or fruit they're trying to save seeds from.

You talked about corn and spoke of cross pollination and mentioned insect transfer of pollen. But pollen is only wind, not insect transmitted. And if one staggers corn plantings so pollen of different varieties is not produced at the same time, then saving corn seed can work. But again, hand pollination works best for seed corn. And also with corn, one needs to know to plant in blocks, not long single rows, to faciliatate pollination if not done by hand.

I used to save seeds from lots of OP veggies and fruits, but I don't do that anymore unless the variety is a rare one and is not easily obtainable. part of the reason is the hand pollinations usually necessary for all the cucurbits such as squash, melons and cukes, the bagging of blossoms or isolation cages needed for peppers, and on and on, and part of it is that I want to support those few specialty places that are selling seeds of the rarer varieties.

I'm a long time lifetime member of SSE and support what they do and I list in the YEarbook with them, but also like to support those who work so hard to offer varieties to the public that can't be gotten elsewhere commercially. Folks like Glenn Drowns at SandHill Preservation, for instance, who produces almost all his own seed and happens to be the Curator of Cucurbits for SSE.

Other places that specialize in OP veggies that I would consider supporting are Heirloomseeds.com, tomatogrowers Supply, mariseeds.com, Baker Creek at rareseeds.com, Southern Exposure Seed Exchange, and several others.

And of course SSE itself has a public catalog and website where they sell many rare seeds to those who are not SSE members. Actually I just finished editing the tomato section of the catalog/website for the 2005 season.

For those who need specific information about seed saving for specific veggies and fruits I highly recommend the book Seed to Seed by Suzanne Ashworth. Specific infomation is given for each and every veggie/fruits as to what crosses with what, what isolation disrtances are needed, is caging plants or bagging blossoms needed, and what is the best way to actually save the seeds, for there are many different techniques needed for different crops.

I don't happen to agree with what she says for tomato seed, but that's just my own personal bias that's coming to the front. LOL

Carolyn.

Caroylyn - I'll send you a pick of some seeds contaminated by mishandling that have a black bacterial mildew on them and they don't grow. They are ruined and the outer cover is intact. These were also from many plants - and are winter squash (Butternut).
My article gives you the user the ability to chose how you want to handle your precious seeds. I just take more care in what I do. Cross pollination of corn was done through Essex Agricultural and yes insects can attribute. By the way, the change is not an abrupt change in physics, but defineately is of flavour. We all have our differences in Seed Saving and techniques. I know some that take from one plant one vegetable and they do fine, though the risk is high that they may not even germinate. I have saved seeds very successfully and my paper works for me so, the expereince I have works well with a 99% germination rate. You don't have to accept any of my article but the article will not change. I don't go into freezing seeds to prolong life as I use seeds saved fresh each year and I don't chance two year old seeds. Thank you for your input though. SSE ok vs. 30 years hands on experience. I'll stand on my experience.

Hello, everyone. I'm a bit late getting in here but after reading through all the great messages this morning I have some questions and comments. First, Michaelp, please comment further on the use of sweet potato vines. I knew they are edible but can't recall the best method of preparing them. Are the tips of the vines used raw in salads? I'm planning to harvest a small but abundant crop from an EarthBox soon.

I agree that raised beds are excellent. I used them for many years until I moved here seven years ago and found out (too late!) that the Homeowner's Association had some very rigid rules! Those rules have finally been relaxed somewhat, and I've set up a couple of 3' x 3' boxes near the kitchen door and planted salad goodies in one and Swiss chard Bright Lights in the other. More beds to come. As we age, stooping/bending/reaching are a bit harder to do, so 3 1/2' is about maximum reach-across for me. I like to work from my rolling tractor-seat.

I save seed from my OP and heirloom plants. Sometimes germination rates are great, other times I need to try again. So many variables are involved - gardening is not an exact science, so I count anything over 50% as success.

Carolyn, I agree with you on SSE and Suzanne Ashworth's book. I was an SSE member for quite a few years but have refined my activities to some favorites and a few experiments each season.

And yes, compost! I had to resort to bins (that HOA again!) and found the results very slow. Finally I opted for a ComposTwin and am getting a good supply, although never enough when dealing with black clay.

Yuska - Zone 8b, Heat zone 9

SSE ok vs. 30 years hands on experience. I'll stand on my experience.

Same here.

Started Medicare on June 1 of this year, haapi;ly retired but physically less than optimal, been growing veggies since I was a kid since I was raised on what's called a truck farm where we grew lots of everytthing.

SSE became inportant to me as a way of sharing seeds with others thru my offerings there and I support the mission of the organization although not always everything that's done. LOL

I'v e been responsible for sending many varieties to many places for trial so that what they like they will offer.

Those places include; Johnny's, Pinetree, Cooks Garden, Tomato Growers Supply, Mariseeds.com, SESE ( not SSE), SandHill Preservation, etc.

So experience has been my teacher as well, based on a farm raised background. SSE is one tool I use to share seeds with others.

i don't trade seeds for a variety of reasons.

And yes, each person has to do and write what they feel it's important for them to do, as you are.

Carolyn

You certainly gave a lot of great information in your post above, Carolyn. As always it's an education to read your words. Many thanks!

Yuska, a hearty WELCOME TO DG! Good to see another grower/seed saver/heirloomist! Hope to see you about the site! (Be sure to check out the Heirloom Forum and Tomato Forum for more great info and sharing!)

Does anyone else have problems with tomato 'yellow' disease in raised beds? I had it really bad this year. I don't have enought room to do a 4 year rotation- only have 2 8x8 beds. Any ideas for curing the soil?

SFK - Are you talking about tomato yellow leaf curl?

I think so- starting at the bottom, the leaves turn yellow and die. I usually cut off all leaves that touch the soil, but it comes anyway. I'm pretty sure it's one of the fungi that starts with a 'P'- phytopthera or something like that. Do you get it? It's fairly common in my area.

I think so- starting at the bottom, the leaves turn yellow and die. I usually cut off all leaves that touch the soil, but it comes anyway. I'm pretty sure it's one of the fungi that starts with a 'P'- phytopthera or something like that. Do you get it? It's fairly common in my area.

No, you've not mentioned the typical symptoms of Tomato Leaf Curl Virus, which indeed would not be common to find in VA b/c of the specific whitefly species that transmits it. To your south, especially in FL, yes. But again, the symptoms you've mentioned don't address the symptoms of that virus disease..

And it's not P, infestans, Late Blight, either, the one you reffered to above. For leaves don't turn yellow with Late Blight. You get water soaked lesions and then the leaves t urn brown and die. From the onset of symptoms your plants will be a mass of stinking rotting tissue within about one week,

Yellow leaves starting at the bottom and working their way upwards can be a symptom of many things. some infectious, some not.

For starters, do the leaves have any spots on them and if so, please describe them in detail.

is there any wilting of foliage when you know there's enough moisture?

When in the season do you start seeing this yellowing of foliage and do you usually still get a harvest of fruits?

And just for future reference, there's a whole Forum here at DG devoted to all things tomatoey.

Carolyn

"all things tomatoey"...!

Luv it!

How true!...

SFK...WELCOME to DG!

Looking foward to next seasons growing. Preparing and winterizing Raised Beds couldn't help but to look back at the seasons crops something I will do ovre the winter in planning for next season. Tomato - Sweet 100, Brandywine, and a few Cascabella Peppers in upper right corner.

Long Green 1870 Heirloom Cukes "Russell Farm" Danvers, Ma. Grown from seed handed down for generations still around today because of the family tradition of growing and saving seeds. First time ever grown in a raised bed garden. My grandfather Vernon C. Russell gave me the seeds for the first time in 1970 and told me "grow only these, save the next generation seeds, and plant them yearly, they are 100 years old". It's the only cucumber I grow in my heirloom gardens. I grew a straight 8 Burpee Organic variety in Ipswich, Ma this year also. I don't dare grow them in the same gardens together and never have. My Dad isn't doing too well at 72 yrs. So my Heirloom gardening will now be all at home here in Burlington, Ma. My sons don't garden so this may be the end of the trail for many over 100 year old seeds handed down. My heart aches over it. Beans are "Old Homestead- Pole". The Tomatoes are not Heirloom they are an OG Roma .

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Straight Eight isn't a Burpee variety as you noted above, it was bred by Ferry Morse as the blurb below ndicates. And it was an AAS winner in 1935. Many folks don't know there's also a Straight Nine, and I've given the blurb for that as well. Most agree it isn't as good as the Straight 8.


(Straight Eight (Straight 8) - Breeder and vendor: Ferry-Morse. Characteristics: monoecious inbred slicer, 58-65 day maturity, all purpose cultivar, vigorous vines, fruit dark green, straight, 8-9 x 2-2.25" size, white spined, cylindrical, blunt ends, uniform shape and size. Resistance: none. 1935.

Straight Nine (Z609-83) - Breeder and vendor: Hollar. Characteristics: monoecious inbred slicer, fruit longer than Ashley, 8.5" long, medium dark green, somewhat pointed blossom end. Resistance: downy mildew, powdery mildew. Similar: Ashley. 1984.)

(My sons don't garden so this may be the end of the trail for many over 100 year old seeds handed down. My heart aches over it.)

It doesn't have to be the end of the line for your old vareties, but the decision is strictly yours.

My own suggestion is that you share the seeds with an SSE member who is a listed member. That person can then grow them out and list them in the SSE Yearbook so that others will have the chance to grow them, and in that way the varieties will be kept alive and well. Additionally, all listed varieites go into the SSE permanent collection and are stored properly and maintained by them. Yes, they do hand pollinations all the time to maintain pure stock of those varieties that need hand pollination/caging or whatever, in order to be kept pure.

Another way to go is to place the seeds with an SSE member who knows which SSE members specialize in beans or cukes, or root crops or whatever, and let that initial person send the seeds to a specialist.

I would not suggest sending seeds directly to SSE for a number of reasons.

Of all the seed preservation groups that I know of, I trust the expertise of the various SSE Curators for the different veggies. For Cucurbits such as cukes that would be Glenn Drowns, for instance.

So the choice is yours and yours alone as to whether these varieties you speak of are allowed to die out or whether you actively do something to ensure that they don't, because they don't have to, as you know.

The whole premise in founding SSE was exactly for the reason you are now dealing with, that is, the disappearance of family heirlooms when family members no longer wish to or can continue preserving them.

Carolyn

Straight Eight isn't a Burpee variety as you noted above, it was bred by Ferry Morse as the blurb below ndicates. And it was an AAS winner in 1935. Many folks don't know there's also a Straight Nine, and I've given the blurb for that as well. Most agree it isn't as good as the Straight 8.


I went entirely by the package. I'm sure your correct about the Straight 8 Origin of growth. Here's a picture of the package as I catalog all my growings and document where, when, how grown.

I will look into finding an SSE member who is experienced with cucumber as you suggest. I think it's a grand idea, and I would feel at ease that this variety will live on passed me.

Your seeds may have come from Burpee but Straight 8 was an AAS winner and was and still is sold by many many seed firms.

A package of seeds from a particular seed vendor seldom relates to who did the actual breeding work to develop a veggie variety.

(I will look into finding an SSE member who is experienced with cucumber as you suggest. I think it's a grand idea, and I would feel at ease that this variety will live on passed me.)

I am a listed SSE member and have been for years, but if you wish I'd prefer to send seeds for that cuke on to Glenn Drowns who is the Curator of Cucurbits for SSE and also a good friend. Glenn I trust.

If that would help, then good. If not, then not.

of course the past known history of the variety and your name would have to accompany the variety as well as your description as you've grown it..

What happens so many times is that an old OP commercial variety is grown, the name is lost and then it gets renamed. I'm not saying that with reference to yo ur cuke, per se, it's just a general comment. And so everyone knows that some listed varieties can exist under two names sometimes.

But Glenn would probably be able to recognize it as one he already knows when it comes to cukes.

Carolyn

Wow, what a great thread!
Ed. love you rwebsite, keep up the good work. If any of your sons are available, i will marry them to inherit your family seeds LOL...

I am working on a winter garden myself, a growing frame, progress is slow, I am still filling the four foot hole with foat manur. WHen I get it two foot high, I will lay three rows of cinder block, then finish filling with composted goat manur and finally top soil. I don' thave time to start plants indoors right now, didn' teven get sweet potatoes planted this year, as I am busy painting and weather proofing the house.

Of course, I will take pictures and let you know how this goes. I got the idea from a Rodale publication dated 200 years ago, then enlarged the size so I can grow a wide variety over winter.

Ernie, nice looking maters, as always :)

Sequee, great to hear how yo uare doing your garden beds.

I will be watching this thread for further developments.....
Tamara

Federal/State Organic Programs

The Organic Foods Production Act of 1990 (OFPA)
authorizes the Secretary of Agriculture to approve
State organic programs that are consistent with the
national organic standards and regulations established
under the OFPA. Under USDA's National Organic Program
(NOP), a State government may request the Secretary to
approve its State organic program. Once a State's
requested organic requirements are approved by the
Secretary, those requirements become the NOP
requirements for organic producers, handlers, and
certifying agents operating in the State.

So even though you may be following the Federal
Standards. You need to look into your State ones as
well. There are certain percentages in both Fed and
State of allowable substances that can be in your
garden and yet still be called "Organically Grown".

I only use organic materials in my gardens (Lime, Leaves, twigs, and grassclippings). I was going to use some cow maneure, but didn't as I do not know where or how it was processed so I stick to natures best, what is all natural. The lime is from pure lime stone ground up no additives and is for PH balance only. Your garden shop and Nursries can help you with that. Green Stone, Gypsum, and bone meal, blood meal, and fish emulsion (phew it stinks though) are natural also and very good. (Gypsum is used to make sheet rock, yup the walls in most of your homes). Watch out for and stay away from treated wood mulches.

Quote from Fed: (Federal Standards Rules) We adopted 5
percent of the Environmental Protection Agency's
pesticide residue tolerance as the pesticide residue
compliance threshold. We increased the minimum
percentage of organic ingredients in products labeled
"Made with Organic Ingredients" from 50 percent to 70
percent.

Well that allows a 25% margin of "non-organic
material". Interesting huh? We all know pesticides get
into the crop. (I do not use pesticides of any type). If there was any type of leaching from
stained wood or polyurthane sealer it would be well below 25% non-organic material.

I myself stained with a "Plant base Oil". Look for
"Bio-Degradeable products" These are safest and they
are available.

Heres one site you can look at:
www.primeshop.com/wmaxinfo.htm
The MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) is all
zero's...that's right - it's non-toxic, non-hazardous,
non-combustible, and environmentally safe.

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Ed,

I feel that the Federal several categories of "organicness" are ridiculous, but they were formulated due to public pressure since so many fruits and veggies were being sold, at often inflated prices, that weren't organic by any stretch of the imagination.

The organic certifying agencies that I know of are not always applicable to just a single state. MOGFA in Maine is, and it served and serves as the primary reference as to organic guidelines for other private certifying agencies.

Here in the NE NOFA is the primary certifying agency.

And since many of my friends are NOFA certified I can tell you that some of them are considering dropping that certification b/c they can't compete due to many reasons, re restrictions that in many cases that don't make sense and don't reflect current knowledge about what an organic seed is, which anti-fungals are allowed, the fact that ,many synthetic products are less toxic than products such as Rotenone, etc..

There's two aspects when discussing organic growing. The home grown home consumption of such crops where no Federal guidelines or any others apply, versus those who are selling their produce to others.

But isn't there a Forum here for discussions of Organic Gardening? It seems to me if you want to discuss, it, which personally I don't, it would be best posted in that Forum rather than being buried in a thread on raised bed gardening.

Just a suggestion.

Carolyn

Carolyn - Not all answers here are personal to one individual and I was answering a question that you could not see sent to me by TanaraFaye. It just so happened that I added the answer to her question about staining and sealing raised bed frames the EPA and OPFA summeries because she had concern about protection of wood frames for Raised Beds. I also added a nice link and information: "I myself stained with a "Plant base Oil". Look for Bio-Degradeable products. These are safest and they are available.

Heres one site you can look at:
[HYPERLINK@www.primeshop.com]
The MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) is all
zero's...that's right - it's non-toxic, non-hazardous,
non-combustible, and environmentally safe.

I feel it is very appropriate in this forum because it is about Raised Bed Gardening concern, Thank you.

buried in a thread on raised bed gardening...

Ummm......It's a Forum I initially started on 6/10, and it seems to be going well.

Just gathered the last of the raised bed gardening vegetables and dried plants that seed will be saved from. Quite pleased how the raised bed technique worked as compared to conventional gardening. Looking forward to next year where I will try what another DG member suggested and that is square foot raised bed gardening "getting the most out of the area you work with". Which is also mentioned in Edward Smiths book "The Vegetable Gardeners Bible". I will take it a bit further and add succesion gardening to it as well next year. Thanx for all for your input. You can contact me at my e-mail address or website. I'm off here, too nasty. BYE

( feel it is very appropriate in this forum because it is about Raised Bed Gardening concern, Thank you.)

Ed, my post above was only about the material you wrote about Federal Organic guidelines. I said nothing at all about treated woods, etc., as you know. And of course that part of your post did directly pertain to a raised bed situation.

I made the suggestion about posting in the Organic Forum b/c that way you'd have far more input on the general topic of Federal standards for organic growing. Posting it here only the folks who are reading this thread saw what you wrote, and it seemed to be an important topic to you re organic certification at different levels.

And I ended my post with the words......"just a suggestion", and that's all it was, a suggestion which would have allowed you to have a more general discussion about Federal Guidelines re organics.

Again, I wrote nothing at all about your comments about raised beds and wood treatments, etc.

Carolyn, who these days would like to have her raised beds about three feet high as her body goes south. (smile)

Tomato disease rust and yellow and others can be prevented in those areas where crop rotation every 3 -4 years in raised bed gardeing can not be done.

Disease to tomato through limited growing space:

Soil building practices such as green manuring and natural composting (leaves, twigs, grass clippings) that support abundant soil microflora which builds a natural disease preventative condition.

Damage already started - Twice as much of the above and a good deep soil cultivation now and in the spring. Watch PH levels while doing so.

I have kept silent long enough. As you can tell by my screen name and my previous posts,I am an advocate of raised bed gardening techniques. I love to talk about them - pro and con. Sadly, this thread has become a little contentious and defensive with little to do with the original topic. What a shame I shall have to remove it from my watch list.

Ed, I also believe the Organic Gardening forum is a more appropriate place for your opinions on the subject.

Bob

What ever...guess it's not important how the concern for stains and sealants for raised beds are correctly placed here...no more posts, no more inputs after this from me..you all work out your own stuff. Wish I never brought up the subjects here with this type of group. I will ask Dave to discontinue my membership.

What ever...guess it's not important how the concern for stains and sealants for raised beds are correctly placed here...no more

Ed,

Again, you have missed the point.

Your comments about raised beds and stains and sealants is perfectly appropriate in this thread as are all the comments about raised beds.

Bob and I have suggested that your comments about Federal Guidelines about organic certification might be better placed in the Organic Growing Forum since they address a much larger issue concerned with organic growing and are concerned with growing in any place, be it inground, containers, or whatever..

And you already did post your Federal Guidelines post in the Organic Forum
yesterday.

Carolyn

FYI to you guys: gardening101usa emailed us this morning requesting to be removed, and I cheerfully obliged him. We now return to our cheerful programming. :)

dave

Whew! Who needs the agata??? Gardening is for fun and relaxation, designed to LOWER the blood pressure.

Thanks, Dave!

Happy to have peace again. . .;-D Thanks Dave. . Janet

Back to my tomato thing- I asked our local paper expert, and he replied that my tomato yellows were a common fungal problem in raised beds, which is why I brought it up in this forum. The leaves yellow and dry up over the course of the entire season.They start looking mottled with yellow, then turn all yellow. I used to get enough tomatos anyway, but this year I only got a few. I normally till in shredded leaves in the fall, and I have a very large and active earthworm population in the beds. I am trying to avoid having to replace the soil, since I don't have space for a 3-4 year rotation. I think I'll try covering the soil with clear plastic for a month, and maybe again in the spring. We'll see.

Back to my tomato thing- I asked our local paper expert, and he replied that my tomato yellows were a common fungal problem in raised beds, which is why I brought it up in this forum. The leaves

sfk,

I noticed that you started a thread on your tomato problem in the Organic folder and asked you several questions there in order t o determine what the disease might be.

I don't necessarily agree with what the paper expert said.

Systemic fungal diseases such as Fusarium and Verticillium are not at all related to a raised bed situation although you may have introduced them if you bought diseased plants or used diseased seeds.

And if there are no spots on the foliage then it isn't a f ungal foliage i nfection.

But as I said, I asked you several questions in that other Forum so hopefully you'll find the time to answer them there.

I also gave you a link about the bean rust you were asking about.

I also said that for future reference that there is an entire Forum here devoted just to all things tomatoey. LOL

Carolyn

sfk, First of all welcome to DG from a transplanted Richmond native!
I too suffer from tomato problems in my raised beds. A couple of things I learned here:

1. When the plant is well established, pinch off the lower branches up high enough so that the remaining ones won't get splashed with soil contaminated water when it rains hard. That could infect the leaves with harmful soil born organisms.

2. If you must water by hand, do it gently to avoid the same problem.

A product my brother told me about is Daconyl. It really seems to help a lot with lots of maladies. Believe it or not, I am an advocate of organic gardening techniques, and I dislike using most man-made chemicals. I dislike losing my tomato (or any other) crop worse so I use them when necessary and sparingly.

May I suggest you post on the tomato forum as well? There are tons of experts over there, Carolyn being the number one tomato guru.

A product my brother told me about is Daconyl. It really seems to help a lot with lots of maladies. Believe it or not, I am an advocate of organic gardening techniques, and I dislike using most man-made chemicals. I dislike losing my tomato (or any other) crop worse so I use them when necessary and sparingly.

Bob,

Daconil is an excellent anti-fungal, active ingredient chlorothalonil, and is one example I use to point out toxicity differences.

It is much less toxic than Rotenone, which is approved by all organic certifying agencies I know of. And it can be used up to the day of harvest. Many companies distribute it but the one to get is Ortho Garden Disease Control which has 29% chlorothalonil, which then has to be diluted to be sprayed.

But it can only be used, when speaking of tomatoes, for those foliage diseases caused by fungal pathogens of which the two most common are Early Blight ( A solani) and Septoria Leaf Spot.

It has no action at all against any systemic fungal diseases such as Fusarium/Verticillium, etc.

But for many folks it can mean the difference between a decent harvest and a superb harvest since the fungal foliage pathogens progress much faster than do the bacterial ones.

No varieties, hybrid or OP have any tolerance against folaige pathogens, with two exceptions that aren't meaningful to the home gardener.

That being said, I didn't hear any symptoms being mentioned that would fit with a fungal foliage pathogen being the problem in this case.

But I did ask those questions in that thread in the Organic Forum where SFK started that thread about bean rust and tomato "yellows".

Carolyn

Thanks, Carolyn. What I see is this - Yellowing leaves accompanied by dark brown spots. This almost always starts on the lower branches. The whole branch eventually dies. Applying Daconil and using the other measures I mentioned really does help.

BTW, you mentioned somewhere you wished you had some 3' raised beds. Well, we built 2 for my dad who was an avid gardener. He was about 80 then, and he had difficulty bending over. He loved them. The only problem was picking tomatos from caged plants - he needed a step ladder for that. Needless to say we built him a short bed for maters only.