where do these names come from?

reading the last post 'autumn fruit'have you ever wondered where the common names for plants come from. Some are obvious, but others make you wonder.I mean why called crab apple? where do crabs come into it? foxgloves, never having seen a fox in gloves before,it's hard to say ! Joe pye weed, who was joe pye? and how chuffed was he to have a weed named after him..I'm sure you can think of loads more, but it would be nice to find out the origins of these names.

Sueone this is subject that fascinates me.

Joe Pye was an American Indian who cured some of the English settlers with the plant (the illness seems to differ depending on source). Obviously he didn't really have the name Joe Pye but that is what the settlers called him.

Several theories come in to play with Foxglove, it's thought to come from the older name Folk's Glove as it was believed that the faeries used to take shelter in the bells, later they were believed to have put magical power into the bells and then fitted them onto the feet of foxes to enable them (the fox) to have their stealth. The Anglo-Saxon name for a ring of hand bells (one of their musical instruments) was called a foxesglien, this may have been applied to the Foxglove as a name. And numerous other interpretations on the name abound!

I shall have to see if I can find the etymology of crab apple.

Oh wow baa, I knew there had to be facinating stories behind these names, where did you find this out? is there a book on the subject? I love it when there's a history behind a plant. Most of the plants in my garden have a type of personal history of one sort or another, like the cherry that Mum gave us when we moved in ,just before she died,or a climbing rose my son bought for my birthday before he went away to uni.Tagettes raised from a seeds with a friend in the USA, these seeds were grown in her great-grandmothers garden, and came over with the great-grandmother from england.It all adds to the facination of the plants.I feel it makes the whole garden tell a story, and not just as a collection of plants.

I agree Sueone! Gardens are much more than areas of landscaped land with plants in them, perhaps that's why the large public gardens seem to have no soul?

As for sources there are a few books on plant name origins but I generally use old folklore books (since I don't own any of the former). One thing to remember is that the history of these names are not set in stone as numerous stories appear depending on who you read!

Well, Baa, I'd certainly be interested in how a plant came by the common name of broom rape? It makes me shudder.

Just be thankful you're not a broom Weez

I spose it's because this plant is parasitic on broom. Baa will doubtless have the full explanation!

You're probably right, Philomel. I think I'm just getting flashes of the news story about that poor man who was arrested and beaten, among other things!

WZ you will be glad to know that plants with the common name of Rape have nothing to do with the act of violence.

In this instance Rape comes from the Latin word for Turnip or knobbly growth - Rapum. The old name (pre Linnaeus) for Broomrape was Rapum Genistae, (Genistae/Genista being a name for Broom), Rapum Genistae and Broomrape simply mean; Knobbly Thing on a Broom *G*.

Rape is also a common name used for several types of Brassica crops, this name also comes from Rapum (indeed the Bot name for Wild Turnip is Brassica rapa) and not Rapio which is the Latin for ravish.

(Edit cos of mixinmetenses again *G*)



This message was edited Sunday, Oct 6th 5:18 AM

This message was edited Sunday, Oct 6th 5:20 AM

Thanks for that Baa. One of those things that float around my head in idle moments and vaguely wonder. Now i can devote the time to pondering on other things.............
;)

Hello - I am new to the forum so this is my first posting. This is a subject that also fascinates me. I recently bought a little book " Discovering the Folklore of Plants " by Margaret Baker - Shire Publications which is full of little gems. Sadly it does not throw any light on the crab in crab apple !

Hi greentapestry, nice to "meet" you. Welcome to DG.

I sell Shire books to raise funds for the Kent Mammal Group, but that one's escaped me - i must have another look in the catalogue, a new one's just come.
I find their range covers so many interesting and possibly more obscure subjects.
Are you from europe or are you just visiting via the forum?
Good to see you either way
:)

Discovering the Folklore of Plants http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=sr_sp_go_as/202-8726883-6638237

Thanks Mark. That's a good price, but i get them trade price direct from Shire and don't have to pay postage either
I must have either missed it in the catalogue, or bought it and sold it quickly, which, when i think about it is more likely. Need to do another order soon, so i'll get one or two.
I've already got a couple of different ones on the subject - it's having the time to read them........

According to that big dictionary of mine, it possibly comes from C15th Scandinavian and says, compare with the Swedish for crab apple - skrabbe
It also makes reference to crabbed or crabby meaning surly, irritable and perverse probably from C13th from crab because of its wayward gait and from crab apple because of its tartness, but here it's a chicken and egg situation again - is the apple crabby because it's tart or are badtempered people crabby because they're sour like a crab apple???

Hmmmmmmm

Thanks, Baa, for the clarification. I have a small patch of broom rape behind our garage, so I hope to get pictures next year. I won't feel so uncomfortable adding it to the PDB now! Can you make me feel better about Lungwort?

Welcome, Greentapestry. What a wonderful name... makes me think of my summer gardens!

Welcome to DG Greentapestry!!!

I'd always learned from my Gran, and older neighbours that Crab Apple was a Norwegian/Scandinavian word: crabb = bitter, unpalatable, therefore we got the phrase of being 'crabby'.

A couple which I do know though are the following:

Directly after the Battle of Culloden, where William, Duke of Cumberland defeated the Scottish army of 'Bonnie ' Prince Charlie, he went through Scotland and massacred innocent men, women and children, to a grand total of 45,000. The English named a flower after him - Sweet William.

The Scots named the Ragwort, a poisonous plant which kills cattle, and horses, also after him, we call it to this day - STINKING BILLY !!!!!

Wintermoor

Scandinavian word?
My Finnish-Swedish dictionary doesn't have word crabb. Bitter is besk in Swedish. Sour is sur.

Yes Evert, Scandinavian from 700 - 900 years ago, when they kept trying to invade Scotland.

Many words change in their spelling over the centuries. We can't take todays dictionary, and find out the meaning of words from long ago, and words which are not in use anymore.

All the best

Wintermoor

According to that big dictionary of mine, it possibly comes from C15th Scandinavian and says, compare with the Swedish for crab apple - skrabbe

This is from my post above
Don't know if that is the current Swedish word for crab apple. Evert???

http://viking.no/e/england/e-viking_words_2.htm

Follow down to 'crab', that should answer the Q.

All the best

Wintermoor

Wintermoor, if you say Scandinavian (as a language) I wonder what you mean ;) That's what I meant.

Well, I didn't find skrabbe there. Krabbe means crab.

Crab apple is vildapel in Swedish - Wild apple. Also called surapple sometimes (sour apple).

Welcome to DG Greentapestry!

WZ

Lungwort is from the belief that it cured diseases of the lung. Wort or wyrt is the old name for herb or root so lung wort is simply herb for lungs (the Doctrine of Signatures carried on this belief for quite a while). Not sure if that made you feel better or not but there are a number of different common names to use if you dislike Lungwort; Spotted dog, Soldiers and Sailors, Jerusalem Cowslip, Bethlehem Sage among others. The reference to lungs doesn't end with English names, other European common names refer to lungs too.

WM

I heard that Dianthus barbartus is also refered to as Stinking Billy in some parts of Scotland, is this true?

Thanks Philomel and WM

I've scouted about and and found the same reference to crab apple being of an obscure old Scandanavian word. I understand crabbe is from an old word (poss. Viking) that meant scratch, crab apples often have thorns so maybe there is a link there?

Evert

It's probably a Scandanavian root word not something used currently or in the last few centuries even! :) A country can't be identified because it might be something from before country boundaries were invented or just a common word used in several Scandanavian languages at a certain time.

Skrubbe means a scratch på svenska..

:P

Thanks, Baa... feel better about Lungwort, too. These common names are really interesting, and so different from country to country, culture to culture. For instance, we Yanks refer to bellis as "English Daisies", while, I believe you refer to them as "Lawn Daisies"? The more I investigate plants, the more I understand why the botanical names are so important, and the more I understand that even the botanical names may vary.

My Yorkshire (Half Welsh) grandfather always called Dianthus barbatus (Sweet Williams) Stinking Billies.

"why the botanical names are so important"

high 5 to Weezin. now start preachin' LOL

be a shepard and not a sheep

Latin names are all well and good - if people use them! I learnt them all before I came here as I knew gardening in a German speaking country was going to be a bit difficult - especially as Switzerland often has different names for things than the ones in the German dictionary. I went along to the local garden shop and asked them to get me a myrrhis odorata and they looked blank. They didn't know the Latin nomenclature!

Eventually I found an organic garden several kilometers away and they knew the Latin names and I was able to get what I wanted.

So back to bellis perennis - the German word is Gänseblümchen (little goose flower) and I've no idea why! Local names are fascinating!

And moving south from Yorkshire I discovered milk maids were lady's smocks - does that tell us something of the local economy?

In Finnish Bellis is kaunokainen (nymph/bell or something like that). Some people, like my mom, also call them "bellis". :) På svenska Bellis is tusensköna. It means "thousandbeauty" or how could I translate it - hmm. Well, skön is pretty/beautiful. Some people here call it tuhatkauno, which is a Finnish translation for tusensköna. It is not very often used anyway.

Gerddi

Milk Maids is a local name for Lady's Smock (Cardamine pratensis for those who insist *G*) here in Hampshire too. I agree things are only of value and use where they are valued and used. I prefer to use the botanical names when discussing a plant but I can't resist the country names and folklore that go with them.

Evert

I love hearing the Finnish names, do you know the history to some of the names too?

Well, some names migh have something "very old in them". Let me know if you want any Finnish names for some plants :)

Thanks for the warm welcome folks - sorry I have taken so long to reply. I am also in the UK - in the north west and I am sure that I will be popping in here regularly especially now that the dark evenings are here.

Welcome, Greentapestry! You're going to love it here. There are so many wonderful folks here to share with. Don't be afraid to wade right in. If you have any questions, just come right out and ask. Lots of helpful people, too!

In the NW of the UK Greentap..., welcome to DG, are you up in Skye, or on the mainland around Fort William ??

WELCOME!!!

Wintermoor