Surface roots on drake elm

Hi,

I have a drake elm that was planted in October 2016. There are surface roots that, if I can, I would like to remove before they become problematic. Our previous drake elm, grew at least one very large surface root over 20 years that look almost like a second trunk in the ground. I would like to prevent that from happening with this new one. The main trunk of this new tree is about 3 inches in diameter, maybe 12 feet tall. (Photos included).

Can I remove these roots now without harming the tree? Thanks!

Hello there a few questions

Did you plant the new Ulmus parvifolia ‘Drake’ in the same place as the last?
I assume that the tree was planted and those roots picture grew up to the soil surface, correct?

At this point, you should be able to remove the stake, if you think this is incorrect, why?

There are a few crossing limbs that could be removed

Hi. The old tree was removed, and roots ground. The new tree was planted about 2-3 feet off center from where the old tree was.
There were tiny surface roots in the same area at the time the tree was planted, and they have grown in size since planting. That is what is concerning me.
The original stakes were removed many months ago, but the tree 'listed' after Hurricane Irma, so we straightened it up - as it was originally - with a new stake.
Cross limbs - as in the upper branches? I haven't given that part a thought yet. It's so small, I'm not sure how much to take off the tree at this point.

Good morning Thanks for the additional information

This would be my suggestion
In the event that the soil in the pot or the balled and burlapped soil mass was not piled up on the trunk of the tree, I would assume that the tree was planted a bit to high. If the soil was pile too high in the original container then I would cut the roots. After closer inspection of the pictures, I will assume that it was in a container(could be wrong)because I noticed a root girdling/wrapping around the trunk from right to left. It is very close to the trunk and should be removed. Containerized trees are often not upsized frequently, so this is a potential hazard of getting good sized trees in containers.( if this was not a containerized tree disregard but still cut the root) If you had roots crawling on the surface with the last planting, it is likely due to a soil compaction issue, as trees generally prefer to have their roots in the soil and tend to ride the surface in search of better soil quality. As for the grinding of the roots( and if the trunk of the tree was ground in place) I would remove that ground material that was undoubtedly mixed with soil and replace with a clean topsoil to avoid potential growing challenges in the future- fungal pathogens etc. We work directly with our tree services to insure that they grind deeply enough and always remove the material left behind because it is raw material for pathogens and does not insure even drainage in the area where the grinding occurred in the even that it is left in place. I hope this is helpful. Without knowing what it looked like when planted, it is difficult to give a specific answer. Drakes are usually semi evergreen to evergreen in warmer climates, yours looks like pretty leafless, did you lose the leaves in the hurricane? Or did they drop with the change of season?
The crossing limb I reference can be seen in the third picture and it travels from left to right in to the center. While the tree may not have a great deal of limbs, younger trees are easier to train than older trees. We often prune trees when we install them, because nursery staff are often focused on other things and not particularly adept at good pruning practices. Good luck

A lot of information - but all good! Thanks! The tree was purchased in a 65 gallon container. The nursery who sold it to us also installed it, and planted it at the same soil level as it was in the container.

The pretty deeply grounded root/trunk debris was removed before planting - for the very reasons you mentioned; and top soil and fertilizer added at time of planting. They trenched the area around the tree for water absorption, and we pretty much just let the trench collapse over time. The only pic I have (included here), unfortunately doesn't show anything up close relative to the roots. I just know the current surface roots are definitely larger than what they were at time of purchase - and appear to have 'multiplied', so to speak.

Every drake elm we have had in the past has always lost their leaves during our winter season down here, so I didn't consider this to be an issue with this tree either.

I will look closer at the cross limbs to see, based on your description, if I can determine what should be removed.

I did fail (actually, I had forgotten, until reading your comments) to mention that we had yet another drake elm - totally different location in the yard - that literally 'fell down' one day after being in the ground for 10-15 years. It appears it strangled itself due to a large amount of surface roots growing over time, most not even visible. So, that is another of my worries about the surface roots on this new tree.

Did I give you any more information that might make you want to provide additional guidance? P.S. Is there anything specific I should do when attempting to remove these surface roots. E.g.; cut from the base of the trunk outward and pull the rest of the root, where ever it may lead??



This message was edited Jan 31, 2018 4:48 PM

Great, It sounds as though they did a pretty good job. While I have no intention of criticizing their work or questioning their professionalism, their eyes may not have the training that was needed to see a root system issue at the time of installation. As such they may have not known to perform root pruning during the installation. We find that to be necessary most of time when a containerized tree is being planted. My concern is with the girdling roots that are visible now. As you have experienced in the past from the falling of the elm elsewhere, it is important that you have those roots addressed now to insure success for the future. I would do some searching online regarding how to remove girdling roots ie google, youtube, etc. You may go back to the nursery and express concern to see how they react or respond or if they provide some guidance. The girdling root that I saw is not large and could be cut with hand pruners from the looks of it. One thing to keep in mind, if you are using pruners that you have used before, be sure to clean them with a 10% bleach solution, before cutting and be sure to clean them afterwards.
This is an effective way to avoid spreading diseases. For the future, just take a look at the trunk periodically to see if it is a reoccurring issue. All in all, it looks like a nice tree and with a little work, you can insure a beautiful specimen in your landscape for years to come!

Thanks. I would have cut off those little roots at time of planting, but wasn't sure I should. I will do so now. I will check out YouTube, etc. but have found some pretty 'lame' stuff on those sites (e.g.; killing fire ants with grits - OMG, haha). That's why I came to this site. The nursery is a pretty good local business, so I may call them too. BTW - I always clean trimmers between uses, especially considering I have sago palms, with all of their 'issues'. Again, thanks so much!

You could always search something like certified arborist demonstrates root pruning or something similar or you could take a picture to the nursery and ask what would you do in this case? Not in an accusatory tone but rather seeking advise perhaps. Honestly they probably should have caught it before hand but these things happen hard to find good help these days!

Oh, yeah - I've got problems with the roots on this tree, for sure! Dug away some of the soil and met up with a network of tiny roots, not to mention some seriously big ones that look to be, at least, encircling half the tree. See pics. (Disregard the black cable line in the one pic.)

Now what? I suppose I am going to have to find an arborist to come take a look and advise on how to remove what can be removed????? Help!!!!

Wow! What a drag! While not surprising, it shouldn't be the end of the world. I can imagine a 65 gallon tree and installation was not cheap. I would reach out to the service to see how they may provide customer support in this case. This seems like a blatant case of dig and drop, as they appears to be no effort to have addressed those roots during the time of installation. If they purchase trees to grow on or if they are brokers, they may not be doing a good job of assessing the health of the root systems of the material they are selling. I have found this to be the case in many landscape problems and have spent a great deal of time trouble shooting plant failure and relevant warranty issues. I would push on them a bit to see if they will come your way a bit. Here is a good link that should help you in the event that the installer decides to fall short of good service

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf8BCS23XzY

I am watching the YouTube you suggested, but also just called and sent pics of the tree/root problems to the nursery I bought it from. They are due to call me back after looking at the pictures. We'll see..... They were very accommodating during purchase and installation - now, let's see how they deal with this. Will let you know. Thanks, you've been a big help!

Hello it could all work out well everyone in the end. They and/or their installers may have been unaware of this issue and so it’s an opportunity for education for everyone. I think in the end the most important thing is the longevity of the tree Lets hope that is embraced by everyone
keep me posted!

Got a return call from the nursery, the owner said one of his associates looked at the pics and didn't see anything wrong (OMG). I told him what I have learned over time about girdling, and also sent them a link to the video you recommended. He seemed perplexed about my information but said he wanted to take a look at all of it for himself (he was not in the office at the time), and would then call me back again. I think you are right; this is - ideally - going to be a learning lesson for all. They are open on Saturdays, so I will give them a 'reprieve' until then before I call them again. I will let you know!!

Well if you are in the business of selling trees, girdling roots may be a blessing rather than a curse since you know you will sell another tree soon enough! Haha Or perhaps it is something these see so often that it does not appear abnormal. The real challenge about plants grown on a commercial scale is that, while people may be trained to address the roots when transplanting, due to the pressures of compensation based on production ie actual numbers of plants planted, these rules may often go overlooked. All said, the problems that we find in older trees in the field could have begun when they were liners - small field or greenhouse grown plants from tissue culture, cutting, or seed. I have found older plants that still had the mesh surrounded peat pot in the root mass from long before they came to me. While you may get some positive response from the nursery, they could also claim that the it happened after they planted. If you want to do more inspection, I would suggest that you scratch around the edge of the root mass where the confines of the pot would have encouraged the circling of the roots to see if they had teased the roots apart when they planted it. Good luck

This message was edited Feb 3, 2018 10:21 AM

You mean, dig out farther to where the size of the container would have been at time of planting?? Not sure. But, as you will read further, that may not matter... (unless for my own curiosity and/or to address additional problems??).

After waiting all day to hear something from the nursery, I just called them because they close in half-an-hour. The owner said he hadn't had a chance to look at the pics or the video - but gave no indication as to when he would. Guess I'll wait to see if/when they ever call, but seems to me that I can scratch them off my list of nurseries to go to (the list getting longer...). In a couple of days, I'll call them to let them know of my decision - on the assumption I won't be hearing from them before then.

In the meantime, I will - uh, I don't know. In the next week or so, I will cut those girdling roots and possibly dig out further, if you let me know what you meant in your comments. Thanks.

Yes to where the container would have been when it was planted. If you find what appears to be a container shape of roots then it is likely that they did not prepare the roots properly before planting. It does sound as if he is not going to look into the situation any further and hopes you stop asking, however, that may not be the case. It is always difficult as a business owner to do the right thing, particularly when it costs something to provide additional service that the business owner feels they are not getting compensated for. Often times, the extra effort that they would put in, would pay off 10 fold in the future via good reviews and word of mouth business. In retrospect, bad feedback via review and word of mouth can cost 20 fold or more. His perspective could be, that is has been over a year and so their obligation has been met. It could be that they only guarantee for a year and so that time has passed. At the end of it all, you caught it before it is a serious problem, so that you will be able to resolve and can share your experience with friends, neighbors, and family. This way, when people purchase trees, you can share your knowledge with them and in turn help them to succeed in their new plantings. In the end, the more the purchasing public knows, the better the industry and its service providers will become! Good luck

Wise words! I will do some more digging further out from the trunk, just to see what I can see.

I didn't ask the nursery for any kind of compensation, just their 'supposed' expertise on what they might think could be done to help resolve the issue. I truly don't think they know. But, I will also be kind to them when I call them back, assuming they don't call me, just to advise them of what you have said - from all aspects in terms of reaping benefits/losing long term customers. Right now, I think they feel caught in the middle of something they don't know how to deal with - in that, they haven't received many complaints - and are not sure how to proceed. They - so far - haven't been antagonistic or in denial mode. So, we will see about in the next few days.

Too bad you don't live near me! I would hire you as my personal landscape consultant if you did!!!!!!!

All your conversation above is positive, and leading in positive directions.

I will add that the idea of circling/girdling roots is not a new one, nor should a paying customer let any green industry professional/business owner off the hook for not being aware of it. Imagine if any other vendor or product were to be provided in similar fashion:

"Hmmm. Didn't know that I was supposed to tighten ALL the bolts on the rims for those new tires I mounted on your car."

"Hmmm. Didn't know you wanted a medicine that would CURE your problem, rather than just mask it for a while so that you'd have to come back and seek my help for treatment AGAIN."

I'm pretty sure you'd have a bit more of your dander up.

The video is a good one, and there apparently are quite a few more available at that link. You should watch these, and a lot more about how roots grow so that you understand where to expect to find them as your tree matures.

Dr. Ed Gilman is a great source of information, and he happens to be a University of Florida professor. Tap into anything you can find that he has produced. Bartlett Tree Experts are also great researchers, and should be sourced on advancements in understanding trees, their growth, and their care.

I recently toured Bartlett's arboretum near Charlotte, NC, where they were presenting some in situ research on - drumroll please - girdling roots on landscape trees. Here are some images of those plants - all Acer rubrum selections. Each individual tree shown is salvageable, albeit some have more severe issues than others. Deliberate efforts to remove the offending/wayward roots will result in a long life for the tree. Ignoring the problem will result in the inevitable failure and death of the plant.

VV makes a good point agreed root girdling should not be allow or accepted, and I think growbags are just as problematic without proper management
Dr Ed Gilman is only 2 hours away if you catch the traffic at the right time and here a link to a great series of videos that are undoubtedly more thorough than what you would likely find on youtube
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/instructional-videos.shtml
Barlett's is great there are very active in the field of arboriculture and like Davey great contributors of their research effort and findings. We see both of their trucks in the Seattle area

H & VV - All I gotta say is: WOW!!!! Super great information and links. I would say I am very lucky to have figured out what's going on so early in the life of this tree. And, to say the least, my current problem is small in comparison to what I saw in the videos/links.

I have a whole lot more digging to do, clearing away more soil before I decide whether to tackle this on my own or hire an arborist. Add to that the crossed limbs above on the tree, and I am kind of freaking out about taking this project on by myself.

The problem is that I have consulted with a few arborists for unrelated issues and, frankly was not impressed with any of them. Their assessments on one issue varied so greatly between 3 different companies, that I had no idea what to do. I ultimately decided to have the tree removed. I also think these guys seem to want huge issues to work with so they can charge enough to make it worth their time and effort. On that note, they would probably scoff at taking on this current problem.

Note: I tried to solicit local arborists, vs. big companies, thinking they would be more willing to deal with smaller issues and their ratings would be based on local work as opposed to looking at a more universal rating for a company like Davey.

As far as the local nursery who sold/installed the tree; I don't think they know what to do and hope I go away. I will probably just send them an email or letter indicating my disappointment in their lack of knowledge/support and let them know that I don't feel that I can rely on them enough to patronize them in the future.

Guess I will mull all this over while I clear some more dirt.....



This message was edited Feb 5, 2018 11:53 AM

OK - did some more digging. What a mess! In trying to determine where exactly some of these roots actually originate - and whether they ultimately extend outward (resulting from better growth after the tree was planted) is causing me to lose a lot of tinier roots. Many of them are surface and some are growing over others. How much of these smaller roots can I afford to get rid of in order to see more deeply about the girdling roots?

From what I see so far, the nursery may have done a good job in planting the tree in order to allow the roots to grow outward, but it sure seems obvious to me that this tree was in that 65 gallon container too long, or not properly handled when it was moved to that container. See 3 new pics. I am not too sure about how many "good" bigger roots there are, but there seems to be a few from what I've dug up so far.

Any more advice on how to proceed? I feel like I have to get rid of a bunch of the tinier roots to get a better view of the larger ones that are partially (or entirely, I can't tell) encircling the trunk. Thanks!

OMG - I was just told by two different people on another tree forum that I should remove this tree and replace it vs. hiring an arborist to assess it and remove the girdling roots.

From all of the info you guys have given me, and the additional research I've done, I did not feel as if this tree's root issues are insurmountable.

Thoughts? Thanks.

Hello there I do not think that the tree needs to be removed. I suppose if someone was not willing to spend the time then it should be removed. All said and based on the pictures, you should be able to tease out the roots that are circling and train them out. The roots that are grey in color are probably too rigid to bend and stake and so I would remove them with a good pair of sharp, clean pruners. The tree is dormant so you have some time to address these issues. In addition, since you are aware of the root problem, you could conservatively remove the roots you feel confident about and elect to remove additional roots in the future as you gain confidence, knowledge, and/or they appear to be problematic. In some ways, the people on the other board may be accurate that the tree would be better replaced instead of having an arborist assess and correct. But that would only be the case if the cost of the service is more than a new tree- that is your choice. I think you should remove the obvious girdling/circling roots and carefully 'tease' or use a hand cultivator to see if you can locate additional roots that are of immediate concern. Root pruning, in many ways, is just like pruning above ground. While the environments differ, it is still the same plant.

Well, I found 6 arborists, with verifiable certifications and reputable histories, and contacted all of them. Sad to say, but pretty much expected, only 2 have bothered to respond. Both of them will come out Monday to take a look and offer their opinion. We'll see what they recommend and how much they want to charge.

UPDATE - Both arborists said almost the same thing about removing the girdling roots, and "reducing" some of the tree limbs. One was more drastic about the reduction than the other; but the big difference between the two: One was willing to do both at the same time for about $50; the other said NOT to do both at the same time, but wait about 3 months in between girdling and reduction, and he wanted $100 for each treatment. His reduction recommendation was actually the less drastic one.

I thought $50 sounded a little on the low side and $200 seems a little high. But, more to the point: is it advisable to wait a few months after cutting the girdled roots before doing the limb reduction? Thanks.

UPDATE 2 - I went ahead and cut some of the roots based on what the arborists said should be cut. Pics (before & after, as best I could). Roughly marked with red where they were cut. The one with the black box just shows you the location of the big girdled root in comparison to other cut roots. Hope that make sense.

I guess the rest of the roots are OK. See any others? I realize the pics are not the best and certainly are hard to compare. Sorry.

And, even though I cut them, I still want to know your opinion about whether I need to wait a few months to 'reduce' the limbs. (I will be reading up on 'reduction' in the meantime.)

Good job on thinning the girdling roots that probably came from being root bound.

my understanding is that the oxygen content in soil helps determine how deep roots go. Depending on the species, the less oxygen the closer to the surface the roots will be. In a heavily watered clay soil the roots will be closer to the surface than in a sandy drier soil where there is a lot of oxygen. So, I would expect that unless you changed the climate (rain) and character of the soil you planted that tree - expect the same kind of roots as the last tree. Its probably the lack of oxygen deeper in the soil that forced the roots of the last tree of the same kind to the surface.

This message was edited Mar 10, 2018 3:29 PM

This message was edited Mar 10, 2018 3:30 PM