Rock gardening in non-alpine climates

Arabis caucausica is a rocking rock garden plant even outside the rock garden. I grew it under a folthergilla in shade and under a viburnum carlesi in hot bright sun and disgusting soil (picture 3). In the 4th pic it's under a pear I took out - the plant is still there. Sun or shade, rich soil or crude, water or drought, it blooms for weeks and keeps going if you deadhead it.

It's inexpensive to buy but I actually start it from seed, which is really easy.

Good to know. I'll look into it. Thanks

Birder, I'm really impressed that you teach, and such a cool subject!

Let us know how it goes Birder. Donna, Arabis caucausica was a rockin' suggestion.

The Arabis caucausica looks a lot like Iberis sempervirens. I grow the later and really like it. How does it compare to the Arabis c.

I manage a garden with iberis, which I like a lot, but (maybe it's me) it goes through a period where it gets really scraggly and I struggle to make it look nice. And (again, it could just be my lack of skill), toward the end of the season it looks very unhappy. Arabis, between blooms, seems to me to be a more attractive plant. And it really is evergreen.

From Pistil, "...The short Phlox subulata is a total loser...Arabis lives, in a sad and diminished manner... ditto Arenaria, Aubrieta. Verbena 'Homestead purple'. Tulips. Mazus reptans. Saponaria. Silene. Blue-eyed grass...Come to think of it, perhaps it is my acid soil."

I have grown Arabis, Phlox subulata, Aubrietia, and Blue-eyed grass in my acid soil. So, I think it's the clay that is killing those plants.

Now that I am surrounded by clay soil at the new house, I think I won't even give them a try. It's too bad, especially the Aubrietia, because it blooms for months.

Bird, if nothing else works, try gold moss sedum.
Sedum sarmentosum
Also try broadcasting fresh columbine seed. That seems to like to grow in rocks.

This message was edited Mar 12, 2016 10:09 AM

This message was edited Mar 12, 2016 10:10 AM

I checked the Missouri Botanical Garden website. Wow, Pistil, what a great resource!

The picture of the Chelone obliqua reminded me of my Chelone glabra at my previous house. If Chelone really work in a bioswale, they will be great. They take no care; no propping up, no dividing for years, and I never worried about watering them. They are worth a try.

Dear Momlady,

Just a suggestion. Actually, I have a few. I hope you don't mind my offering them, but I learned these things after many years of frustration and plant losses and I hate to watch anyone else go through it. We gardeners have to stick together.

I have grown plants in both HIGH ph soil (I mean 7.9, honey - I had it tested) and near neutral, which I have now. I realized what I had when a once blooming hydrangea that is 30 years old bloomed in blue, pink and purple in my new yard. That meant that I was probably near neutral, which is 7.0. 6.8 to 7.2 is ideal, which gives you an idea how messed up my soil was.

But in my old yard the landscapers put in acid loving plants (14 bayberries, 5 fothergilla gardenii) which quickly became chlorotic (turned a sickly shade of yellow). I got some Ironite spray, which I used three times a year, and the plants thrived. Took five minutes three times a year.

Here, in my neutral soil, I grow several acid loving plants, particularly lilies and gautheria. I use soil conditioner to plant them, and add a bit a couple of times a season, and it allows acid loving plants to thrive. I have a bag of it. I could never grow the lilium speciosum 'Uchida' at my former house because I didn't know this. I thought I had to grow it in pots. It demands acid soil. In the first two pictures it grows three times the height it grew at home, and in the ground, and produces multiple flowers, because I threw in a handful of soil conditioner. One of the things they don't tell you is that oriental lilies require acid soil to grow well and return. I must have lost 40 oriental lilies because I didn't know this.

Two feet away, lilium candidum (the madonna lily) grows happily. This lily demands neutral to alkaline soil. So I simply give it nothing but standard bulb fertilizer. It rocks out.

Near the first one, there is another "I gotta have a low ph plant - really low - lilium auratum platyphyllum. So soil conditioner, really, just a handful on planting a couple of times a year - makes it possible for you to grow almost anything you want. I planted six wintergreen, an acid loving plant, with soil conditioner in neutral soil two years ago and got the flowers and the berries.

If it doesn't need amendments (saponaria grows like crazy for me) it doesn't get it.

So, really, you can do anything you want (especially if you are stubborn like me). It takes little time or money for me to grow my obsessions. But my other suggestion for you is to start using compost when ever you can. Personally, I put plants in with about 60% compost. I had horrible soil at my former home. It was former farmland, so it was compacted. Two inches of digging got you the most disgusting clay. A couple of years of composting resulted in soil I could grow anything in. It's a slower process, but while I was waiting, I planted everything with 80% well rotted compost. My plants went nuts!

Lastly, in the final picture, is an oriental lily that struggled terribly at my former house. Sorbonne .It blew me away when handful of soil conditioner produced this.

Please don't give up. These steps are cheap and not time consuming. Of course, you will be in danger of becoming an obsessed plant nut like me.

Donna

I LOVE suggestions.
The amount of knowledge on this website is astounding, and I am grateful for you and others who are so willing to share what they know.
For 5 years I lived in Lubbock, TX, with a high ph soil. I didn't like it. I found it very limiting. Anyway, where was your 7.9 ph soil? It sounds impossible!!
Your lilies are beautiful! Your garden is beautiful!
I will take your suggestions to heart!! It is new for me to garden in clay this bad (except Texas, which was long ago, and which was alkaline instead of the acid soil we have here) so I will definitely be experimenting.
When you say, "soil conditioner," what do you mean?

I should have explained. Shame on me!

Soil conditioner improves soil texture and chemistry (ph). It increases the drainage capacity of poor soil. Good ones can "unlock" nutrients because they are reservoirs for nutrients. As an example, high ph soil limits the ability of a plant to absorb iron, and it turns yellow. They have lots of humus - lots of organic matter in a concentrated form, so you don't need much. I am on my third year of my first bag (it cost about $8.00.) It has lots of little microorganisms that make your plants happy. And it's organic.

Companies like Miracle Grow will claim they have it but NOOOOOOO!

Is there a good nursery or garden center near you? This stuff is not in a hardware store. My nursery carries "Black Forest Garden Soil". It is very similar to this.

http://www.kellogggarden.com/products/masternursery/products/?s=black-forest

Don't let them sell you bags of ironite or magnesium or other stuff. Yes, those individual things "condition" the soil, but you need the humus and microorganisms. And you need very little.

My 7.9 soil was in Grayslake, Ilinois, 50 miles north of Chicago. It was former farmland, so for generation tractors had gone over it, creating compressed rocklike layers of "hardpan". The morons who build houses on it scraped off what decent soil was there, and threw down a layer of "top soil" (never waste your money on top soil - it's completely dead and has no nutrients or life like compost does) and underneath the two inches of dead soil was clay. So you would put in a plant and it would die because there was no drainage. In some places I could only dig down two inches.

Happily, we had an organic farm on site, and if you would give them your scraps they would let you take all the compost you wanted. After five years of carrying black garbage bags full of the stuff and putting it down twice a year, I could dig down two feet and I could grow anything. The shortcut is planting with lots of compost. And then the compost works its way into the soil and COMPLETELY changes its structure. Compost itself improves drainage and aeration and tends to neutralize the ph. I fling it down whenever I can.

So your shortcut is to plant with lots of compost and use soil conditioner. Cheap! Effective!

I am so happy to tell you about all the mistakes I made. So that you don't have to make them. This is great! We can help each other.

Donna

Here are some pics of my former garden after about 5 years. I planted most of it. In the last picture I planted all of it. Love my neighbor's arbor. Great backdrop. You can do this! I grew up in condos! You can do this! I know you can! Don't give up!

Wow Donna, lot's of really good information there and what a gem you are! Thanks for sharing the backstory on how you turned hardpan clay into paradise. My hat's all the way off to you! Beautiful gardens.

Teaching the class went well, (I think). People said they came out of the room talking and with smiles. So, I think it went okay. I enjoyed doing it.
Haven't caught up with the posts yet.

edited to add:
Donna, your lilies are beautiful. The one plant in picture 4 looks like Baptisia australis?
And, I don't recognize the pinky purple plant in the foreground in front of the red Lilies and Nicotiana?
I have very clay soil. My yard was pasture before it became my yard. I have fairly neutral soil. I don't take care of my plants nearly as well as Donna. I have Lily speciosum rubrum, and it is so large it is at the top of my windows. I'm trying to decide where to move it. I've already moved it once without it blinking an eye.
I grow a few Lily orientals and again, do nothing, and they seem to be pretty happy. My yellow Asiatic Lilies disappeared one season. I think voles were the culprit.
I have one Asiatic Lily Corina that has been in my yard for 20 years. It is very dependable and a wonderful color of red-orange.

Anyway, we have moved off topic.

I still think I will try to grow the blue flowers I mentioned earlier. I need to order the seed. I think I'll order from Outsidepride. They sell pretty good sized seed packages. I'll report back how this experiment works out.
Gardening is always an experiment!

75* here today!

This message was edited Mar 14, 2016 6:54 PM

Birder spreading the word! Awesome!

:) Yes, I enjoyed it.

Hey Birder,

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the bap looking plant, but the one amongst the allium christophii is actually miscanthus silberfeil just coming up. I love stuff in various stages. The plant to the left is a cornus alterifolia (pagoda dogwood) after bloom with lilacs against the house and an allegheny serviceberry. Silberfeil is an old cultivar they don't really sell anymore, because it is the only one I had that tended to die out in the center.

The pinky plant is the ever cursed but quite wonderful saponaria 'Bouncing Bett' . I was shipped it by mistake! Bluestone was supposed to send me three salvia 'Rose Queen' and I got this instead. It took me a while to figure out what the heck it was. It was in my peony beds. You have to divide it every couple of years to control it, but I LOVED it. It is scented, beautiful and reblooming - at least three times a season. I'm thrilled that you like the picture with the lilies - it is one of the best I think I've ever taken because I am photographing one bed while standing behind another - dumb luck.

Anyway, here is the saponaria. It's not for the gardener who puts in plants and walks away, but I love it! I had a ten foot easement on one side of my property and got permission to cut out the grass and grow things.

I loved the saponaria so much that when I found out it came in white I ordered it. Glenn Varner, from Flower Scent Gardens, had it and I ordered four. Dear Glenn closed his garden a couple of years later because his mother was dreadfully ill, and I felt fortunate to get it. It is a little less wild, and I put four plants in my front beds. Yes, it too has to be controlled, but look how beautiful - and the scent! I was lucky enough to be able to bring the white form with me, which I am very happy about, because it is out of commerce. I am naturalizing it under my new paperbark maple, as I did with my old one. It was tough to transplant, and took me four tries, but I have it now and I am thrilled. I think of Glenn whenever I see it. I'm very sentimental about my plant providers. I got the most wonderful rose 'Madame Hardy' from the great Sam Kadeem in the last year he was shipping out of state (Minnesota). It was too mature to dig up, but when I look at my new one (excellent, from Roses Unlimited) I think of Mr. Kadeem, who used to answer his own telephone, and with whom I had the joy of speaking.

By the way, the blue plant is cynoglossum. You tend to find it in heirloom catalogs. It's a funny plant because it has sticky seeds, which means that its seeds stick to you and any animal and it ends up in other places in your yard. I grew it from seed and it was so easy that I now have some here. It also comes in pink, which I grew with my fothergillas and arabis caucausica. It's one of the few truly blue plants that is really tough. I am in the process of spreading it around my yard because I am a cool color gal, and it goes with everything.

Thank you so much for asking about my plants. It allows me to walk down memory lane, which I really enjoy.

The Saponaria o is quite lovely. I'm one of those gardeners that get busy on the "other side" and forgets about something that needs to be divided. I would be afraid to plant it in my yard. Although, I think it's a really neat plant.
Okay, the fourth picture above, in front of the white arbor with the lovely pink rose in the background: isn't that Baptisia australis?
I smiled when I realized the Miscanthus coming up near the Alliums Christophii! So cool!

Oh, Birder, of course! That is in fact baptisia. I didn't read carefully enough. I like the lily Silk Road, but the stems are really thick and homely, so I grew it, and I grow it now, between two baps. For a moment, I didn't realize that those were baps. I actually have to go back and relabel my picture! I can actually, now that I am really looking, see the stems of the lily coming up. The baps and lilies are actually about 20 feet from the roses.

In a different location, I grew it with calamagrostis acutifolia 'Karl Foerster' - aka feather reed grass. I love the way drumstick allium picks up the color, so I threw in that allium (dirt cheap!) with both.

This message was edited Mar 15, 2016 8:03 AM

You have a beautiful garden, Donna!

You are sweet to say so!

Thank you.

Just noticed this thread, on a subject very dear to my gardening heart!
By the way, there is also a Rock and Alpine Gardening Discussion forum at DG, in case people have forgotten about it or were not aware of it. There may be some useful info or plants of interest or whatever there (although the forum has been moribund for some time).

And, by the way, the North American Rock Garden Society has chapters all over, some of which may be of interest to the posters here - lots of benefits to membership, including being able to glean info on rock gardening in local conditions from experienced members. For example, there is a chapter in St. Louis, Missouri, called the Gateway Chapter. Here's its website with upcoming events:
http://gatewaynargs.blogspot.ca
Also, the Northwestern Chapter is quite active (got to visit with them and see fabulous gardens when the NARGS annual meeting was hosted out there in 2012) with many really expert alpine gardeners:
http://nargsnw.org

Anyway, glad to see there's interest here in alpine gardening!

Hey old GB! Glad to see you! Miss your wonderful photos.
I have noticed a nearby chapter and even though I'm not successful with alpines, I always meant to attend a meeting just to enjoy other gardeners and see what they are doing.

So, although I don't know where my picture is I'm going to recommend a meadow rue, Kyushu, that lasted a few years until it was out competed as it is very tiny. I didn't have the right set up for it. Not real vigorous but I had it in a tough spot.

Then for the shady rock garden, maybe Doronicum, Little Leo. That has been a survivor for me.

Then you have your dwarf irises, too. Urban Star and Baltic Blue here.

Epimedium Lilafee had small leaves and doesn't spread.

And little daffs like Sun Disc which has nice thin strappy leaves and lives many years for me so far.

I love that little Doronicum.

I looked up the Thalictrum Kyushu, how cute is that. I doubt I will try it, they say it likes a moist spot, and my plants get little water in the summer. Same for Doronicum.
I have an Iris cristata 'Abbey's Violet' that does well in dry shade under a limbed up pine tree. Spreads along the surface. I could never keep Iris reticulata alive, tried a few times. Loretta's dwarf Iris are cute, and look healthy.

Well, I'm going to try Kyushu again if Well Sweep has it this year and hopefully I'll get it to stay. I've tried other full sized thalictrum and had no luck.

Abbey's Violet looks adorable and dry shade too!

I have several Thalictrum kiusianum's scattered around the yard. It's definitely easy for it to get lost, since it's so tiny. But it has survived in several places. Here's one fairly healthy patch looking pretty robust. Doesn't always look so good.

That's a nice one! You definitely have to have it in a place where it won't get lost.

Hi everybody - I am sorry to have hi-jacked the thread.

Hi DonnaMack - I am back online after another pause. Sorry to be so slow at getting back to you. Our internet connectivity is awful right now. Plus this moving experience has been a stinker.

Thank you sooo much for the information!! You have a ton of (hard won) knowledge about improving soil! Congratulations on your stunning gardens. I have never tried or even noticed soil conditioners and had no idea they were so helpful. I really appreciate that you are willing to share all this information.

I know it will take years to get my soil into better condition, but I will go get some of this soil conditioner post haste. And, as soon as the builders finish doing stuff to our yard, like changing the drainage and installing a concrete pad, I'll get some compost.. We are starting from ground zero, meaning the top level of the soil was scraped off and now we have clay. (There is one exception. The builders left a big stump in the front yard and it is surrounded by decomposing tree. I ordered some epiphytic !! rhododendrons !! and an epiphytic !! blueberry !! and stuffed them into the decomposing matter. I now live in zone 8 and these new guys are stated to be hardy to 10 degrees. If any of these epiphytes make it I'll start a thread.)

Way to go! Congratulations on surviving the move!

I am in the process of trying to germinate thalictrum rochebrunianum. It turns out that the plant is is identical to 'Lavender Mist' according to a new book called 'Essential Perennials' , a fairly new book I borrowed from the library. Wow I love that plant! I bought 8 of them a billion years ago when they were cheap (another left behind!) and it morphed into, at one point, 23. When I want a ton of a plant I try to germinate it. Or a plant that is out of commerce. The trumpet lily 'Emerald Temple' is gone. I was unsuccessful transplanting it. So I got the seed from the North American Lily Society, and have 100% germination on four seeds. It will take a couple of years, but I will have it again. It's on the right in the picture, with a crazy quilt of other plants. The anemone just turned up, but I liked it, so I let it stay.

I also like thalictrum 'Black Stockings' which was a trade for fragaria vesca reugen I had grownt and which I brought with me. (2nd picture).

One of my favorites was a plant I also brought with me, thalictrum aquilegifolium 'Sparkler', in picture three. I purchased it many years ago and didn't want to lose it. I discovered that it worked on the north side of my house where it got morning shade and afternoon sun, but it works REALLY well in my new garden in mostly shade.

I LOVE thalictrum! It is a much tougher plant than I realized. I have 'Splendide' on order, and rose Quadra on order, and I am putting them together. I just read that thalictrum and roses is a "natural" and having discovered that some grow really well in sun I am going to try it!

I am ending up tracking down some very hard to find seeds at Hazzards Greenhouse:

http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/3166/

They sell seeds to greenhouses, but they also sell them, very happily, to home gardeners. The only catch is that even the smaller quantities can be pricey. But they are lovely to deal with (Joyce Hazard is particularly sweet). You order two packs and get thank you notes. Anyway, salvia verticillata 'White Rain', which I got from Bluestone, absolutely disappeared from commerce. You could only find it in purple. But they had it. I used it a lot at my former home. Great tough but pretty border plant. And pushy enough to hold its own with bayberries and japanese anemones, but gentle enough to coexist with penstemon digitalis 'Husker Red'. And blooms for months if you deadhead it.

The second picture shows my Hazzard's seedlings from last year.

Also, I got from then Nepeta sibirica which may be souvenir d'Andre Chaudron. A honey. Got it from Bluestone, but it is a bit delicate. Here it is, from seed from last year, just coming up. And by the way the coral bell and the parsley are also grown from seed. I could never get heuchera to last, but 'Firefly is easy from seed - I've got about ten. Not a great picture, but you get the idea.

Some of my most interesting plants are from my former home. Everyone wants to sell you NEW NEW NEW but often those plants fade out. And I usually want at least three. I don't want to buy 3 $15 plants, so I wait for sales. I get a lot of stuff at 50% off before the season. Or at the end of the season, when the fancy new plants that didn't sell because they are so expensive go on deep discount out of desperation.

This way, I can get loads of plants I like to use as border or front plants, like woodland strawberries, coral bells and parley, which is not only delicious and incredibly easy to grow but beautiful. It looks phenomenal with lilies, alliums and roses, and it comes back if it doesn't bloom. And if it does bloom, it sets seeds, so you have it for years. And parsley crispum is delicious.

Donna, if you're looking for small packets with small prices, check these out;
http://robinseeds.com/

Thank you Mipii. Will do!

Alta, I see the rock garden forum here hasn't been used since last summer. It's a shame.

Donna, you weren't kidding when you said those seeds were expensive. At least you have extras to trade or sell if you are into that.

And that's why I only bought completely out of commerce seeds. They were about $8.00. I bought some others that cost about $5.

These guys really sell to greenhouses.I was very grateful that they would sell to me at all!

Donna, I do like your Salvia verticillata 'White Rain'!

I've got a go-to annual that performs all season long and always have it planted in pots because it's not hardy in my MI Z6a. Gazania is also a rock garden specimen and growing those in pots makes the most sense to me as I don't have to worry so much about watering. Gazania splendens and Gazania rigens. with 2 -3" flowers in bright clear colors. My favorites are the gold and orange varieties but there are also pinks and stripes.

I've found that Gazania linearis is on my list to try as it may be perennial here.
http://www.kew.org/science-conservation/plants-fungi/gazania-linearis-treasure-flower


This message was edited Mar 21, 2016 12:34 PM