Once Common and Now Rare?

Hi this is my first forum posting. I'm trying to create a collection of plants on our property that will provide interest and be unique to the area. I prefer the "wild" or common species of trees rather than many of the cultivars that have rare or unusual colors or forms. That being said I'm having trouble finding some of the following basic trees in their original basic green form. These trees are fairly common, but now seem rare and hard to find in their purest original form. Not looking for compact varieties. Do you know where to look? Any ideas or advice would be appreciated.

1. Chinese Elm (ulmus parvifolia)
2. English Holly (inlex aquifolium)
3. Norway Maple (acer platanoides)
4. Sycamore Maple (acer pseudoplatanus)
5. Montpellier Maple (acer monspessulanum)

Hmm, nobody has answered you. I was waiting for someone with more knowledge.
How about growing them yourself from seed, that could be a ton of fun, and it would be easier and cheaper to get seeds, there are several places that sell tree seeds on the web.
Also try Arbor Day Foundation, they sell little tiny saplings by mail very inexpensively, but not all of these would be available.

I googled Norway Maple and got Fastgrowingtrees.com
Seems like with googling, you could find anything for sale somewhere.

Also, maybe try this question in the Trees and Shrubs forum, a very active group of participants there, several from the Midwest. Not everyone looks at this forum.

Seeds are okay, but I don't want over 100 of the same thing. I know of a place online "sheffields" I think it is. They have some of the maples, but like I said I don't need a large quanity. Plus they seem kind of expensive $8.95 for a packet!

Holly is probably out of the question to grow them from seed. I hear that they sprout really slowly and take a long time. Not really wanting to wait for that.

I thought maybe the plant traders would reach out to me. I don't think I can access certain areas on this site because I'm not a big time paying member. No harm in trying though.

With all due respect, your choices may seem unusual to the gardeners. Noway Maple for example, is found all across your area.
http://ontariotrees.com/main/species.php?id=2059
so they aren't what I'd call unique to your area. Most gardeners here probably, like me, curse them as they pull any seedlings they find, and swear to never help spread the tree.

8.95 for a packet of seeds does seem high. I have a zilion norway maple seeds in my yard right now.

Would you tell us more about your plan?

All the postings so far have been helpful and polite, so I feel free to break the mold - a bit.

I would ask this: why, when you are located in the middle of Wayne National Forest, would you be interested in introducing a known pest plant (nee invasive exotic) like Norway Maple? I would respectfully request that you reconsider ever using that plant in your "neck of the woods."

All the rest of the species you list are alien to North America as well. Creating a collection of interesting and unique plants is a laudable goal, but not at the expense of the world around you. I bet there are several hundred species you could select that will not infest landscapes (manmade and natural) around you, and that would still be unique to your slice of heaven.

As sally has asked: tell us more about your plan, and then ideas about species and where to find may flow uninhibited...

They are talking Native Trees and shrubs to restore your area. You said you didnt care about the colors, yet 3 are known and spread for their color, here is a link to a place that is interested in native trees and shrubs! that both feed wildlife and have color as well being native.


https://dawesarb.org/discover/conservation-efforts/ohio-native-plant-network/


There are others, but rare trees are generally rare because they don't like each other, or don't like their growing conditions. VV- I know you have good viburnums for that area as well!

Well you certainly broke the polite mold with your ridiculous assumptions. Firstly our farm is not smack dab located in the Wayne National Forest. Our property does not join it. It is probably a few miles or more away. Secondly Norway Maple is not a noxious weed in my particular area or the state of Ohio for that matter. They are not banned or prohibited. They are very few and far between. In fact one rarely finds them naturalized, and if they are, it's close to town. So whatever problems that you've experienced, it is probably safe to say that those are just your personal experiences and perhaps out of the norm. Just about all maples have the capacity to reproduce; it's nature. Anybody with a Red or Silver maple near their home can attest to that. They certainly have the ability to put down seeds and send up new baby trees. I don't see anything wrong with any of the trees that I would like to obtain. If arboretums in Ohio have them, then why can't I? I have plenty of natives and natural forest, but have a desire to have a few specimen plantings. Your ideas make no sense.

When speaking about colors, I mean that I want the green leaf standard sized trees, or the original species, not genetic dwarfs, grafts, or pink or purple or lace leafs. I'm not interested in what Dawes Arb does. That's fine and good, but I'm not a commercial nursery or public land that would be part of the program that you linked me up to.

That map is a generalized indicator of where they might be. They are certainly not defined as weeds in Ohio, maybe in other states, but not here. All this focus on Norway Maple, what about the others?

I found Norway maple at Fastgrowingtrees.com
http://www.fast-growing-trees.com/NorwayMaple.htm

Whether it's the 'original', I can't say but they don't describe it as anything but 'regular' large tree.

Of course you can plant whatever you want. It seems that none of us knows a source that specializes in these. If I put my money where my mouth is, I should have removed my own three Norways when we bought the place, 25 years ago.

It might come down to personal preferences. Perhaps they don't always make good street trees or trees for small city lots, but out in the open where their large size is not a problem I think they would be a perfect tree for anyone. I hate to see city or town trees severely topped which is sometimes a common practice. Thanks for your help I'll check out the site.

Using your description of your whereabouts puts you in the geography of Wayne National Forest. Smack dab or not, your property's exact location is not respected by the plants you bring into residence there.



If you wish to debate/discuss ideas, it helps to use terms properly - and accurately quote your opponent. "Noxious weed" is an agricultural term. Pest plant and invasive exotic are ecological terms, and are not synonymous. Banned or prohibited? Not yet...



I know that Norway Maple is a pest plant - and not just by my personal experiences. A simple internet search would reveal just how much of a problem it is currently (and where) and also where it is likely to spread. I suppose we will be able to add Wayne National Forest to that list soon.



Now, there's a rationalization. You might ask some of the curators of those arboreta if they treasure all the plants that comprise their collections - or would recommend distribution of same.



I won't argue with unsupported opinions. I will state what I refer to when I disagree with the use of known problem plants.

"Rapid growth, high reproductive rates, lack of natural controls, and an ability to tolerate a wide range of environmental conditions have helped some non-natives outcompete and displace native species. Invasive species reduce biological diversity, change food webs, and displace wildlife. At least 42% of the federally endangered and threatened species in the United States are at risk because of invasive species."

I choose not to contribute to this problem, through my own planting behaviors and through advice to those who are considering doing so. Of course you may choose to ignore this and do as you wish.

Once again I'd advise you to check the facts for Ohio. It's unfortunate that you have so much hate for a maple tree created by almighty GOD. For the state of Ohio, you are blatantly wrong about the weed status or pest status whatever you want to call it. For your information it is the USDA that handles plant importation. They're also the ones responsible for monitoring weeds and exotics. That should be obvious since they regulate imported plants. I should know because I have a permit from them. Call this poor tree whatever you like weed, noxious weed, pest, etc..... BUT the FACT is that Norway Maple is not a problem in here Ohio, especially where I live. It simply does not do all the negative things that you say. Norway maple is great for shade, syrup, and lumber, and that's just a few basic things. In regards to the arboretum collections; they have several cultivars of these trees, and interestingly enough you never see them taking over or sprouting up everywhere, or going wild. They also have ulmus pumila, ailanthus, and probably other trees that you would hate to hear about. If you can get past this one tree, you might offer up some advice about the others, or maybe tell where I might find Acer monspessulanum.


This message was edited Nov 21, 2015 11:56 PM

Maple trees can be so messy! I have 4 different varieties, they drop their leaves way later than any other tree, they are huge and have had to be trimmed alot, they do provide nice shade but leave helicopters everywhere. They also seem to suck alot of nutrients from the ground and I have trouble getting grass to grow under the two in my back yard.

I would do more research before planting lots of Maple trees.

http://www.ecosystemgardening.com/norway-maple-makes-most-hated-plants-list.html

I would also be careful of elm trees... Just saying.

Acer monspessulanum is native to the Medierranean area- France. Could possibly be your problem.
Why are you assuming we are a grant a wish foundation? The forum is for asking queries, yes, but you already know what you want- the research doesn't end because you choose your species and assume you have others fetch for you. Do you truly believe ANY ailanthus is grown without a ton of risk and hard work containing it? How much acreage do you actually have that you want so many trees? Or perhaps you wish to begin a business of these prolific reseeders? I hooe you find what you believe you search for- but there's that old chinese warning once again as well. Not the USDA that monitors invasive plants. Even tho southern states are inundated with invasives, Ohio also has quite a few. The USDA zones have been changed recently - after ages of having the same planting zones we have warmed up in many areas farther to the north.



http://www.oipc.info/invasive-plants-of-ohio.html

This message was edited Nov 25, 2015 11:33 PM

The link you provided appears to be a coalition of agencies and organizations; not something that the federal government overseas. Since you and ViburnumValley like different links you should definitely check this one out. Hopefully that will clear up the misunderstanding about who handles invasives. Again it is the USDA APHIS. The second link provided will clear up any confusion about the status of Acer Platanoides in Ohio. More specifically one can see that Acer Platanoides is listed as "absent/unreported" in my county.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdahome?navid=PLANT_HEALTH

http://plants.usda.gov/java/noxious?rptType=State&statefips=39

My links are via my mobile- just limited as this isn't my paying job. There are different agencies with different agendas - many don't keep updated these last maybe 7 years. I have found its wisest to check dates and multiple resources. As of yet, in my area even, there are geographical (4) zones within less than 100 miles of each other- the plants in these do not grow the same in each. Totally change for the most part, trees, plants, grasses, invasives. Invasives where I live are really an issue. Shrug, controlling them isn't possible, just trying to keep pace with them can wear you out. You DO know your USDA zone has prob changed a few years ago? I know that Ohio where you live has several areas that go from wooded rolling hills to farmland, To limestone outcrops. Wayne Forest doesn't appear to connect in many areas it is marked on my map, but the areas near it will still be home to the same trees. Have you tried to contact your Forestry Service to see if they could help with your choices, or could tell you why these trees have become scarce?

You do not need to quote us to answer, tho I guess it does keep what you wish to answer close to your typing. I would expect you need to search for your trees in a more northeasterly area than I can assist you in. I wish you luck.

When you talk about USDA zone are you meaning hardiness zone? Such as zone 6a or 6b? I'm aware of growing zones or hardiness zones, but that doesn't really affect the plants I'm discussing. All of them should be within the zones. As for ODNR division of forestry; well all I can say is that unfortunately they no longer provide tree seedlings to anyone. It's kind of odd, but they actually refer people to WV to get trees. I contacted the folks in WV that have the nursery down there, to see if they had any Quercus Robur or "french oaks" as they call them. Well as luck would have it, they do not. Their website would make you think otherwise. People don't update anything these days, and that's actually their paying jobs! They really don't sell anything of interest or anything in affordable amounts. I don't want to buy several hundred at a time.


This message was edited Nov 28, 2015 1:58 AM

Yes the hardiness zones. We grew with the slow changes to the zones, but I know for a fact Ohio Valley winters once got snows as deep as 2nd story balconies not so long ago as !9th century, that alone can affect the once huge forests that grew there.
Some issues with finding trees may simply be seasonal. You may have to take a few trips to an area the tree(s) you wish can be found, and collect seed or sapling yourself.