Eastern White Pine Replacement

So I was talking to my wife at dinner tonight and the topic of the recent ice storm came up. She asked which were the ones that were falling down and shedding branches and I told her they were the white pines. Then she asked if we had any and I said yes we do. I planted one in the fall of 2010. Now I knew they were a so-so tree when I planted it but it was one of the last trees I planted and it was a hasty decision. I wanted an Austrian Pine but couldn't find any at planting time and settled. Anyway, I think if I can find a suitable replacement, she would be into getting rid of it. I don't really like the idea of having it where it is anyway as it is fairly close to the house.

So now what would a suitable replacement be? I haven't done much research yet but I'm set on an evergreen for sure. I'd like something that is a fast grower but not as susceptible to damage with heavy snow loads or ice. My first thought was Picea Abies Cupressina but then I read it only gets 30' and I'd like something that gets 40' minimum. I'm not scared of big trees so height really isn't an issue.

What do you all think?

metasequoia
Given your name, you certainly need one, if you don't already have one.
Fast growing, big, beautiful.

Yes, I indeed have one and it's gone from 6" to 21' in 4 growing seasons! The only Sequoia I don't have is Sempervirens but we're too cold for it.

So-so tree? What! I'm sorry, but this native treasure deserves better than that. It might not be the right tree for the site you have, but to call it a "so-so" tree is heresy. That's like calling Abe Lincoln a so-so president. Or Woodford Reserve a so-so bourbon. Tsk, tsk.

You mention P. abies 'Cupressina' as a possible replacement, which leads me to believe you're looking for something upright....right? Why not go with P. strobus 'Fastigiata'? Or if you're absolutely dead set against anything P. strobus, how about Pinus cembra? It's definitely not fast, but it's a beautiful pine with a naturally narrow form. Another option might be Picea omorika, which is a lovely...ah, make that handsome, spruce with a narrow form. If space is really limited, I'd go with Picea glauca 'Pendula', which is reasonably fast, easy, and beautiful.

I don't mean to offend but in our area, white pines have a reputation of dropping limbs fairly easily. We just had a 6" heavy wet snow on Monday followed by 0.25" of ice on Wednesday. Needless to say a lot of white pines had problems. It's a nice looking tree but in someone else's yard :)

I will not plant another strobus anything. However, I am intrigued by your Cembra suggestion. Do you know where one might purchase such an item? Also, how fast do they grow, perhaps a foot a year? I will need something that will be able to hold up under a heavy snow load. Cupressina seems to have that ability. The species held up really well this storm but I don't like the looks of mature ones. I know the Picea glauca would too but we already have a Pungens and they seem similar to me. I am considering the Omorika but that is lower on the list due to its slow growth.

Or like those so-so Wisconsin winters...

Sequoiadendron4 said:

Combine that with an interest in 40' minimum size, and for zone 6 PA you suddenly have very few choices. There aren't any hidden or unknown excellent species that grow really fast and resist all environmental/climatic insults. I think you need to pick what attribute that is most important to you, and accept that no one selection has everything.

You are learning the trade-offs inherent in the rapidity/reward of some species, and the risks therein attendant. That's the Rabbit in the race. The Turtle is slow and steady, but if it crosses the finish line in one piece - albeit a more deliberate pace - then that is the prize.

If you don't like snow/ice damage, I'd avoid most columnar conifers. They are famous for splaying open with loads placed upon the many vertical stems. I'd lean toward plants like Abies, Picea, Thuja, and Tsuga which have a far more flexible constitution than most Pinus sp.

You garden in a very coveted area - note all the exceptional gardens, arboreta, and collections found in southeastern PA - so go for the coveted plants that can be cultivated there. Pinus strobus is no slouch, but I would relegate it to the commonplace - and there is no disrespect intended in that attribution.

Well I've read that the Cupressina has a better ability to handle snow loads than most columnar types.

Question for you: Would a Tsuga heterophylla work in my area? I've read that they are resistant to the wooly adelgid but we don't have that beetle that eats them like they do out west so I wasn't sure if they would work that great here.

As you can tell, I'm sort of all over the place in regards to which type of evergreen to get. I'm still in the research and learning phase.

Holds up very well under heavy snow load, but is fairly slow-growing (20-30 cm/year). Pinus peuce is another similar white pine look-alike that takes snow very well, and is slightly faster than P. cembra (though not as fast as P. strobus).

Resin

Resin,

Would you happen to have any forest pics of P. cembra? I have never witnessed that, and I should put it on my arborial bucket list.

I forgot to put my thoughts on P. abies 'Cupressina' into my last posting. I'm a little short on memory cells tonight. I blame it on the cold weather.

I've got one and it seems to be healthy and vigorous. BTW, I'm talking about 'Cupressina'. But in any decision between this and just about any other narrow conifer, I'd choose the latter. Have you considered any of the narrow form Serbian Spruce?

Pseudo, could you post pics of your Cupressina?

I can, but it's -14 and I'm hunkered down in the house. I'll venture out a bit later and see if I can't get a decent shot of it.

Geez....I bet you can't wait for spring!

Here you are:

Somebody please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't a fast growing tree make it more susceptible to damage from environmental assaults. I'd expect the slower growing the specimen the stronger it would be in maturity.

Wow...those are beautiful resin.

Mipii, IMO that's not always the case. We have trees that outgrow our white pine but are much stronger than it.

Thanks, Resin. I'm guessing it gets a little windy on that rocky ledge, and they have rugged beauty about them.

Here's a pic of my wispy P. cembra. It's small, but producing cones.

Here's my P. abies 'Cupressina', which is in the back of a mixed border. I think I planted it in 2012, so it's still small. It's not a something I'd plant in a high visibility location.

And here's Picea omorika 'Gotelli Weeping', which I'm hoping will eventually approach the grand specimen I viewed this past summer at the National Arb.

Pseudo, how much does your Cembra grow each year? Also, where did you get yours?

I picked it up at a small specialty nursery near Madison about seven years ago. I think it was called Yahara, but I don't have any documentation and I'm not sure they're still in business. Growth was almost imperciptible the first three yeas, but once established it became more vigorous. I moved it from my old place to this site in 2011...or was it 2012. Anyhow, it is definitely not fast and I'd think annual growth of 12" or less should be expected. Resin will hopefully weigh in on expected growth rates, but it's safe to say one needs to be patient with it. ViburnumValley stated this well in an earlier post (i.e. The Turtle is slow and steady...).

Yeah turtles are slow..but I want it all ;) I'm really going to look at a few options that you guys have mentioned. Someone on another forum mentioned Vanderwolf Pine. That seems interesting too.

In general, are the long leaved pine less durable in the snow than the shorter leafed evergreens like spruce and fir?

Who would ever think a selection of Pinus flexilis would hold up in snow/ice...

'Vanderwolf's Pyramid' Limber Pine is a very nice tree, but is a compact version - so you couldn't possibly settle for a 30' conifer, could you?

Here are some recommendations for Abies species that would love growing in PA.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=9765653

Have fun with the search.

My Abies koreana is looking good. I hope it looks this good come spring.

In general yes, though it's not a definite rule, there are some exceptions.

Resin

Is this the thread where we show off our conifers? OK, good. Here's A. concolor. Lookin' pretty good to me, but I read somewhere that conifers can may not show the true damage inflicted by winter until much later. I'm not sure if that's true, but I've got to believe some of the marginal conifers I've planted over the past three years are going to be toast before it's all said and done.

Here's that dastardly EWP. :)

You guys sure know how to trigger the conifer envy ugliness...
I'm gonna wear out those pictures...

that'll teach y'all!

So I was checking out Picea orientalis 'Skylands' and I like that one. It's not as tall as I'd like but makes up for it in beauty. I've been reading that it needs a shade cloth when young, is that true? The spot that I'd like to put it will get shade until approx 1030am and then full sun after. I'd rather not have to put shade cloth around something.

MoBo says it appreciates some relief fro afternoon sun in Southern climes, but to protect from wind in Northern.

If I were you, I'd take that Picea orientalis 'Skylands' and raise you one Picea omorika (they'd look fabulous together).

I bet they would, the omorika is gorgeous too. I think I'm going to have to bail on the Skylands because of the extra sun protection I've read that it needs when young. My local nursery can get my a Cupressina for 70 bucks in a 3C pot. More research required :)

Good luck and have fun...of course you'll have fun, you're already having fun...

What if you could get a 7' Abies homolepis for $70?

Are you offering?

I also love Skylands, but unfortunately here is what's left of my Skylands after my deer friends' antler-rubbing destroyed the main growing trunk. All I have left is a 'Skylands skirt' of golden variegated foliage. Frustrating, to say the least.

Aww...that's so sad :.(

When it was alive did you do anything for it in regards to sun protection?

I'd take it. That's what I paid for a 2' A. homolepis 'Tomomi' at Rich's Foxwillow Pines. I would've preferred a seedling, but they're just about impossible to find. So, when would you like to deliver it?

Is this what you envision your Skylands to be? It's growing in full sun. Well, full northern California sun..

Yeah it's really nice but I would not be willing to provide it any sort of sun protection. I don't think it's an option because everyone is saying that it needs that. More and more I'm thinking picea abies is the tree to fit my needs. It has the growth rate I desire and strength I need for snow loads. Also, it is a deep green color, which will go nicely with the Cedrus Atlantica it will be near. I have a pinus densiflora oculus draconis and cryptomeria japonica sekkan sugi nearby so I don't need the golden color.

WeeRobin, would your Skylands produce more foliage this coming growing season?