Gauntlet Response Debate VV vs. Mipii

Sally, I thought it was:
A- Debate pros and cons of specimen planting versus natural growth.

I'm pretty sure VV thought it was:
B- Make a case for understanding why your specimen suddenly up and dies, despite what you thought were ideal conditions.

It looks like we ended up with:
C- I missed the point, so enlighten me, and perhaps help continue the discussion.

It seems to me that we can sum up the debate as follows: What yields the best results - nature, nurture, or an arbitrary combination thereof - and what criteria should we use to decide what "best" means?

Pseudo, care to explain to VV (and other hold-outers) how "natural" red oak growth patterns facilitate the spread of oak wilt, and how "nurture" in the form of a chain saw is sometimes necessary to save the oaks?

This message was edited Jan 14, 2014 7:16 PM

I love each and every one of you, in the truest horticultural sense.

I did indeed mean Choice B in each of the above-proffered lists - but have immensely enjoyed the swerve off-line, bivouacs, and diversions into myriad other positions. The learning curve goes vertical...

Back at Sequoidendron somewhere above: I would suppose that the grasscutter Beech-grower lives somewhere that Fagus grandifolia is native. Which is precisely my point.

That won't - dare I say, CAN'T - happen outside of that species native soils and associates. Which is where many optimistic gardeners fail, without appropriate knowledge and expectations.

I wish to thank Mipii primarily - as well as all other onlurkers and participants - in generating what IMHO is an exceptional thread of open, vigorous, and positive debate/discussion.

Kinda like our own Olympics.

Anytime you want to take it outside VV!

I'm happy to emerge with my tail not solidly stuck between my legs (geez that would've been embarrassing). I agree that was a robust debate, lots of good points were brought up (some good and funny). I too want to thank everyone, especially those that placed side bets.

You still reign Master ViburnumValley.

Well VV, we'll see. I have three trees that are growing outside their native range. Some others native from Asia as well. Most have all been planted for 3-4 years and are doing well. One is a Sequoiadendron Giganteum, hence the name :)

Wow, Sequoiadendron Giganteum, that's exciting! We need to see baby pictures with yearly updates...please.

I couldn't find any from 2011 but here are 2012 and 2013 respectively. I take pics of our yard every year on Memorial Day weekend so that everything is consistant. It grew 30 inches in '13, 27 in '12, 16 in '11, and 3 in '10 when I planted it. I'm have an odd skill of being able to recall numbers easily so hence the 4 years of growth remembered...lol Right now it's about 9' tall. I love it. Unfortunately, it's getting a little crooked near the bottom but there's nothing I can do about it because there is a swale in the yard near it. It straightens toward the top though.

crooked = character

Oh...it's cool. Thanks for indulging (very sweet). If we're really lucky next Memorial Day might bring close-ups of the needles (is that pushing?).

Haha...not pushing, I don't mind. If I remember, I'll take photos up close of the needles. I took a bunch of close ups this year of flowers but not much of leaves. It's grown a lot though. I think when I planted it, it was about 3' or so. Being up to 9' now, that's pretty fair growth.

Are the needles prickly like my Juniper? Please excuse my enthusiasm, never got to see one up close...

Green needles are a little prickly but not as prickly as a juniper or cryptomeria. This is until you get to the browned out needles. Then they are prickly enough to stick in your skin.

No need to apologize for the enthusiasm :) These trees are my favorite, I do have regrets though that I didn't get a Sequoia Sempervirens as well. Then we'd have all three members of the Sequoiadendron family. We have a Metasequoia in the front yard too. Planted that thing and it was 6 inches in the spring of '10. Now it's over 21'!

Thanks! Sounds like they're happy, happy, happy.

Go get thet Sempervirens to complete your collection, it's never too late, lol.

Wow, I'm impressed! Talk about planting trees for generations to come to enjoy.

Haha...I wish! The wife says no more trees for me :(

We have a 1/4 acre. When we moved in, we cut down a dying Sugar Maple and a hacked up Silver Maple. The only other tree on the property was a 35' picea pungens, which was in nice condition. I proceeded to go tree crazy and planted 11 new trees. So, even though I could find room for one or two more, happy wife, happy life, you know? LOL

What I hear is; if you had picked it up during the flurry, she wouldn't have yet known what she had...hence, when that time came, the line had to be drawn.

Good lesson...get your dream trees all at once! Hahaha...honey, we need a new tree, I'm going to the nursery...

Haha...yeah well the problem was that I never knew there was going to be any line drawn. Therefore, if I had, I would have done some things differently. The last tree we got was a Katsura and we planted it 10/12. It was my wedding present from her. It didn't do so hot last year though. I hear they are tough to establish and take several years before they start doing something.

It sounds like you might have to buy neighboring properties, Sequoiadendron!

We have 1/3 of an acre. When we moved in, we had 10 white pines, 8 maples (red and silver), 3 Kwanzan Cherry trees (1 pretty much dead), 1 crabapple, 1 mountain ash, 2 dogwoods, 1 Bradford Pear and 1 Japanese Maple. I'm not talking puny little trees here; many of them were over 20 years old.

We're down to 2 old Kwanzan Cherry trees, 3 red maples (2 old, 1 new), 1 old pine, 2 Japanese maples (old and older), 1 mature Purple Leaf Plum, and 3 dogwoods (1 old, 2 new).

It's hard to find space to plant more trees because of my shrubs (or is a crape myrtle that might be 30' tall a tree?) and neighbors' trees growing on our property lines, but I'm planning to plant a few more anyway.

Oh, I just ordered Katsura seeds...also a great looking tree, nice gift. You're newlyweds...congrats! That line may be in the sand then, bide your time, she may soften. Until then, keeping your wife happy is smart...what goes around, comes around.

Wow Muddy, you really cleared out that land. It's a shame not to have kept a couple of those White Pines though. My neighbors have a silver maple and I've cut a bunch of branches off my side of the tree. The owners rent the property and don't really even want the tree, they just don't want to have to pay for it to be removed.

Mipii, make sure you water your Katsura trees plenty. They like water while establishing. I think that was the downfall of ours this season. Ours is 100ft away from a hose so it's a little tough to water.

Sequoia, I have 2 weeping katsuras, one in the middle of open lawn, the other in a fairly densely planted woodland; a situation vaguely reminiscent of the currently-being-debated woodland vs specimen tree conversation going on in this thread. (Obviously, it's not really analogous, since there's nothing native about the katsura in my woodland...). At any rate, the one crowded in the woods has grown much better, now 20+ ft tall with gracefully weeping branches & fresh healthy foliage. But since it's in the midst of all the other trees, you can't really appreciate it's form visually. But the one in the open setting gets scorched by our hot summers and has never really thrived. I'm not sure I really had any point to make, other than relating my experience. Good luck with yours. They can be beautiful trees (which of course is why I have 2...)

Interesting thoughts Weerobin. Ours is behind our large Blue Spruce and next to a 14' Loblolly Pine. My guess is that the Loblolly is going to grow another 10' or so before our Katsura really starts on so it might shade it a little. The Kat gets some brief morning sun and then is shaded until approx 2-3pm til dark. I'm anxious to see how it starts the year. Since it was its first year, it came on strong with new leaves and then promptly lost 1/2 of them after a few weeks. We got the plant as a season leftover and it was slightly potbound in addition to having bad rub wounds from the wood tree racks at the nursery. After the leaf drop, I cut a 1/4 of the tree back and the rest of the leaves remained the rest of the season. Hopefully it does better but it's got several years before it recovers I think.

Apparently they are a woodland tree Wee (I should be looking for a weeping variety). I guess I can always grow seedlings and trade. Do your leaves smell like toffee?

Sequoia, with 11 trees on your lot, yours surely must also be in a woodland situation. Do you know how tall yours are supposed to mature to? Do you have C. magnificum or C. japonicum

All this talk about Cercidiphyllum japonicum made me reminisce about a past thread...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/668578/

Darn it, VV, I was going to go to bed on time for once but started reading that thread and just couldn't stop! I really loved your photos-set-to-song - very creative and beautiful.

That was a great thread VV, thanks for reminiscing. Gorgeous specimen, all decked out in her Sunday Best...mmm, still savoring...

Going to bed with Katsura scentivision dancing in your head. Life is good!

Nice VV...that is a gorgeous specimen!

Mipii...our lot is not a woodland situation yet but will be. Most of our trees are only 14' or so. We have a good 10 years before I would start considering it a woodland.

I almost forgot...ours is a japonicum

This message was edited Jan 17, 2014 8:03 AM

How absolutely stunning; thanks for linking to your beautiful Katsura tribute.

Who'd have thought VV would be a sentimentalist?!
I'd have expected wine pairings, but verse pairings are over the top!
As one who's been rapped over the knuckles on more than one occasion for 'alternate vs opposite' transgressions, I'd have thought there was sterner stuff at the core.
Ya never know...

(OK, in a rare admission of truthfulness, I also thought it was outstanding.)

What a beauty, I've seen that tree there, my DH has family buried there. I have always thought how wonderful it would be for the cemeteries would plant specimen trees throughout. VV great thread.

Lol Wee, I can relate.

I realized that, all of us being tree-lovers, I should have explained the reasons for some of the tree-eliminations - the diseases that killed 4 of them, the silver maple surface root that reached the house foundation after cracking our garage floor in half, etc. - but I didn't want my post to get too long.

Or at least, I should have explained my point (I feel like I'm throwing down another gauntlet here : ) ), which is that I think there is such a thing as too many 60-80 feet tall trees on a typical suburban plot, particularly if they are the wrong kind of trees.

As for white pines - they definitely have their place in some landscapes, but I got to see what happens when they're planted close together for screening. By the time they're 60' tall, the only limbs are in the top 15', the rest having dropped, usually in the winter so you get to cut them off your shrubs, neighbor's fence (hopefully nothing more valuable and God forbid, no person) while standing in the snow realizing that you're being stupid to rescue your shrubs when the next limb could fall on you!

Haha...I was thinking to myself as I wrote that post....geez she ruined a small forest!! LOL

I don't blame you on the Silver Maple...no offense to those who have them, but I would only plant them in my worst enemy's yard. We only have one white pine and it is about 10' tall. I wasn't thinking too hard when we got it or I would have bought something else. It will be over the driveway when it's older so I'll have to remember to park in the street during heavy snows. I was just so excited to be able to get another tree, I would have taken anything...lol They do look nice though.

I know you know more about trees than I do (sincere statement, not sarcasm), so you probably know this, but anyway..It sounds as if your white pine is more of an isolated "specimen" tree, so it'll keep its limbs longer, and probably more of them too, because it won't be competing for space and light. I think white pines grow more slowly if they don't have to race each other to the top in order to find some sunlight, too.

My neighbor has a white pine (also right by his driveway) that looks terrific - nice and full, and not too tall. Now and then, he mentions cutting it down and I ask, why?

Edited to add something I had forgotten. My neighbor parks his cars in his garage. Yours will start dropping sap on your car, of that I'm sure. The spots under pines in the parking lot at work are always the last to fill up!


This message was edited Jan 17, 2014 3:35 PM

Haha...I'm not a tree guru by any means but I do love trees and learning about them. Right now our driveway is far enough away but we are planning an addition in the future and widening the driveway in the process. As a result, my car will be parking closer to the little guy. You're totally right about the growth too. It's not really blowing the doors off as it has only grown about 43" inches in the last three growing seasons. Our Loblolly Pine out back almost puts that on in a single season.

I love pines though. I'm always smitten that I never planted an Austrian Pine...