Berry-producing shrubs

I went on to imply that Pseudo doesn't know what he's got - and you inferred the same, as noted in your most recent post.

Which is why I suggested he have "the talk"...and direct the appropriate pairing.

No apologies needed to me - but maybe to the Nyssa...

BTW, I can't believe that no one has questioned the zone I've listed. 5b?? Really!?

I think I'll need a tutorial on dioecious-ness. I suspect I have a few single dioecious shrubs hanging out in my garden.

Fortunately, I planted 5 Myrica pensylvanica shrubs, a good thing because I know they're dioecious. I'm hoping there's a male in the mix because even though the shrubs are attractive and evergreen so far, I planted them for the berries.

Back to Sally: Thanks for the information on your elderberry. I had only planned to grow one elderberry, but ended up with two due to a shipping error. I'm glad I have the second one because I've only seen one other elderberry shrub around here, and it's 2 miles away and I doubt the bees will fly that far!

Yes, sorry Nyssa about jumping to conclusions regarding your sexual preferences...

And yes, you are a sage one VV! I'd surely select you to be a 'big sprig' judge. Take note at how well you've taught us...Sally's got fine art of distraction down. Personally, I thought she was just practicing her HTML skills.

Either way Sally...salute.

Pseudo, why have you listed zone 5b when your zone is either 4a or 4b? It's obvious from your question that you know better, so is it wishful thinking, zonal envy, a desire to have plants die so you can buy replacements or all of the above?

Did you and VV add up your zones, divide two and each took the remainder?

DISCLAIMER:

I do not, nor have I ever, claimed to know anything about Salvia sp.

It doesn't produce berries anyway, so I strike mention of it from this thread forevermore.

**********************************************

The topic of dioecious plants arises much more than you might 'magine. A search herein may turn up some quality examples, but maybe only on a single genus per thread.

If illumination is of interest, then an independent epistle is imminent...

Muddy, I put it up in jest thinking someone would catch it and eventually call me out. Now that I think about it, the zone we garden in probably isn't of much interest to others.

5 b sounds cold to me.
And I assumed DG set your zone by your zip code.

Hey, you prompted me to pull out an old-fashioned book atlas I haven't looked at for years so that I could find Eau Claire by doing a no-tech search, so no need for apologies. If I hadn't been looking for something approaching intellectual stimulation, I wouldn't have done it.

I could be mistaken; I often am, but I thought we entered our zones.
On a related note, one thing DG plant files does, which I find amusing because it isn't a town, is link my zip code to "Wolf Trap".

that's right, the subscriber picks a zone. Don't know what I was thinking.

So, VV, you're not "Salvia"; okay, but you still know more about monoecious vs. dioecious plants than I do.
I actually "get" the dioecious ones: you either buy match-made cultivars, or you buy multiple shrubs and hope you end up with at least one male.

What is harder for me to understand is monoecious shrubs that are marketed as self-pollinating but yet don't produce many, if any, berries unless you plant more than one.
For example, I have one Mahonia aquifolium (no berries) and 2 Oakleaf hollies (8 berries between the two of them this year). Then there is my Viburnum plicatum f. tomentosum 'Mariesii'. I thought the paucity of berries was due to shade, but I now know I need to find "it" a compatible mate.

I haven't finished this DG article yet (but I will - I promise!), but I like the way the problem is explained: "Though viburnums are monoecious, meaning their flowers have both male and female organs, and thus can pollinate themselves, they don't do a very good job of it. In Nature, pollination usually works better when others are involved! For the best fruit production, good cross-pollination is a must." (http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/412/)

Nurseries should make it easier on neophytes like me and just tell us that if we want berries, we need to buy X number of shrubs, or Y shrub and Z to pollinate it (That's MY soapbox).

I agree with everything you said above. I would only alter one word in your quote from victorgardener's article:

What that means is: most/all Viburnum plants are relatively self-incompatible.

This is quickly understood by many Rosaceae family fruit tree growers - apples, pears, cherries, plums, etc. - where single clone plantings don't produce nearly the numbers of fruit as when multiple clones are planted near to each other. This mixes the pollen from tree to tree, and better pollination occurs.

You generally will get some fruiting on viburnum, even when only a single plant exists. But allow for the cross-pollination within the species (or similar enough partners, such as species that readily hybridize), and the fruit production pins the speedometer at OMG. NOTE: to partner well, similarity is necessary and overlapping bloom time is a must. This is understood when you grow 25+ different Viburnum dentatum, and the earliest blooming selection is completely done and setting fruit before the latest blooming selection begins. Those two would not be appropriate to pair.

I would agree that nurseries/garden centers/any purveyor of this wonderful genus of plants should know this characteristic - but you know very well that there are an awful lot of things that they do not know, and this is (all things considered) not the most important.

AND - the only way to change that fact is for you as a customer to take your soapbox and your wallet to the perceived transgressors, and demonstrate to them how to change their ways...

I am so glad I brought up this subject now, while I have plenty of time to figure out which shrubs to buy in the spring.
I'll look for a Viburnum - maybe V. plicatum tomentosum 'Shasta' to help pollinate 'Mariesii'. I'm editing this because I realize that I can't determine the best spot for the new shrub until 'Mariesii' blooms. Due to its part-sun/part-shade location, it flowers later than those planted in full sun, I believe; that is, if the gorgeous shrub I see in my neighborhood is a 'Mariesii'.

I have 3 "pure" or "species" (if one of those is the right term) Viburnum dentatum; i.e. they are not supposed to be cultivars. V. dentatum are monoceious, so do I just look for a V. dentatum cultivar that blooms at the same time so that I can maximize the berry production? Edited to add that as with 'Mariesii", I should wait until they bloom.

I'll also look for something to pair with my Mahonia aquifolium, which wasn't marked as a cultivar.

I think I'll leave my hollies without co-pollinators because birds seem to prefer to nest in non-berry-producing shrubs. Smart of them, I think. They're left in (relative) peace in when they build nests in my overgrown azaleas, rhododendrons and boxwoods. I've decided that if anyone ever asks why I let my shrubs grow so big, I'll tell them that they aren't shrubs, they're natural birdhouses : )



This message was edited Dec 12, 2013 10:00 AM

solitary Mahonia bealei berries very well.

I had M. bealei, Sally, but got rid of them because I needed a place for Myrica pensylvanica (Northern bayberry), and I decided that the M. bealei leaf shape didn't go well with those of the shrubs surrounding them. Which plants look good together is very subjective, I know, but I know what I like when I see it and that's all that matters : )

To go back and retract one of my earlier comments about Ilex 'Apollo' and I. 'Sparkleberry' because I don't want to discourage anyone from trying them: When I bought them a few months ago, the 'Sparkleberry' shrubs only had a few berries on them. It's quite possible that the birds had already feasted on them. Also, they were root-bound and already showing signs of disease. I think they'll do much better now that they'll get some TLC.

Muddy, my comment about Mahonia was only meant to suggest that one might guess M aquifolium to berry up OK on its own. That's pure assumption though.
Your choice of a native in place of M bealei gets you a gold star!

This is what the Missouri Botanical Garden says about M. aquifolium: "Single specimen shrubs fruit poorly. Grow more than one shrub together for best fruit production (single specimens with no other pollinator in the area fruit poorly if at all)".

A while back I read somewhere that I needed another Mahonia species to help pollinate it, like Mahonia repens. I didn't try too hard to find it, but I'll look more next year because a "repens" species would be great in that location. M. aquifolium is a lovely shrub, and one of the easiest ones I have, so I'll happily plant more.

I think Viburnum nudum 'Winterthur' is the most beautiful shrub I've ever seen, so I'm reserving prime sunny spaces for 3 plants.

Now that I know that planting another cultivar of the same Viburnum species will maximize berry production, I want to pick the best companion for 'Winterthur', so I'd welcome suggestions for other Viburnum nudum cultivars that would bloom at the same time and be suitable for zone 7a.

Viburnum nudum 'Brandywine'

Thanks, Mipii !
I forgot to add another question: I haven't looked up 'Brandywine' yet, but Viburnum nudum 'Winterthur' is supposed to mature at 5-12' T x 5-12' W, which is exactly the same size as the Sambucus canadensis that will occupy the same area.

Do those sizes sound about right? It matters because I want to be able to see all of the shrubs; i.e. I don't want to plant the shorter ones behind the taller ones.

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I am always truly thrilled to bring some humor to people's days - God knows we need more laughs - but ..... what did I say that was so funny ?????

uh, oh. Size matters??

You're right Muddy, size does matter (when it comes to shrubs). They all have the same size range, I would suggest a triangular configuration if you can't plant them all side by side with something lower in the front. Choose the berry color you want to have the most impact to be front and center and plant the other two behind so you can see 1/3 of those two from a head on view. To be more explanatory, the back two would be side by side approximately 18' apart and plant the last one 6' in front at the center of the other two.

I have V. Winterhur and V. Brandywine--beautiful. The berries go from white to pink to blue to purple to black.

I laughed at the mature sizes quoted above.

I have 'Winterthur' in no particularly well-maintained areas (meaning droughty clays) that are about 9' tall now. Elderberry will just shrug at that height.

Give these folks some room, or plan to occasionally rejuvenate if you prefer a more modest mass.

They ARE absolutely awesome (as assent).

Mipii, thanks! I looked up the specs for Viburnum 'Brandywine', and it's supposed to mature at a smaller size than the others, so your suggestion sounds perfect.

My group of Aronias (or are they now Photinias?) is about where the liriope was. I'll plant the elderberries towards the top of the hill in a row perpendicular to the fence, then plant the 'Winterthur' about halfway downhill, followed by 'Brandywine' front and center at the bottom. Elderberries are supposed to be leggy, and the Viburnums will help hide that.

That hill can be a big pain, but it'll make it easier to see everything!

See VV, the composition of height, texture and color in photo #1 is interesting and pleasing. No wonder I can't coax the birds from your yard. I'm guessing pic #2 is 'Brandywine' and #3 is 'Winterthur'?

Birder, sure can't complain about a couple of performers like that...every season interest!

Aronias are reclassified as Photinias. You're in luck, that hill is a big asset to help differentiating height. Is that a Rhodi to the left and a Holly behind?

Hi birder17 - I bet your birds are happy with those berries! Do they wait until the berries get black or start eating them right away?

I'm glad you didn't hurt yourself ROFL'ing, VV! I thought MoBot's size estimates for Sambucus canadensis were on the low side, because I've seen one at least 15' tall. Is that what you meant, or do you think the Viburnums will be taller?

The 5 shrubs will have 340 sq.ft. to share, more if I let them take over some of the lawn. That might be too close, but they can duke it out.

I love that mix of shrub shapes and colors, VV - it's gorgeous!

That's a yew behind the Rhodi. Both of them were growing into a huge Euonymus alatus until earlier this year, when I noticed that the Rhodi had diseased branches and decided to get rid of the Euonymus.
One of my Hibiscus syriacus / Rose of Sharon is growing between those two hydrangeas. I'm going to leave them there because they don't really affect my planting plans, and because I have so much moving to do.

This message was edited Dec 20, 2013 10:29 PM

Yes - the Elderberry should easily be the tallest, and will get there quickest. I think Viburnum nudum will max out at 10-12' tall, and then if it is in good conditions. I'd say it would prefer wet acid sandy clay loams, if pressed. On your ridge, it won't get there as fast unless you irrigate/fertilize.

Above, that first image is 3 'Winterthurs' in a crowd about 6 years ago, when they were "only" about 7 feet tall. Yes, me and my effete birds...I'm glad you like the composition of that collection - 'cause it really just evolved from collecting plants I like. More of a ramble than intent.

The image of the fruit is 'Pink Beauty', one that a friend from Shelbyville IN raves about.

The third is a BBB seedling (parents were 'Winterthur' and 'Earth Shade'), which displays the fine glossy foliage and long-persistent fall color derived from such an excellent coupling.

Muddy, the birds don't eat them until they are black-so you really get a lot of colorful berries. The Viburnums, for me anyway, need occasional supplemental water to do "well" and produce lots of berries especially in drought times.

Wet acid sandy clay loam it will be then. I am going to be irrigating and fertilizing. A brother-in-law with considerable experience gardening and landscaping in southern California has volunteered to install an irrigation system for me.

What is the shrub to the left of the 'Winterthurs'? It looks evergreen. And the yellow shrubs?

Very nice VV, 'Pink Beauty' would explain the absence of blue berries. What does BBB stand for?

Muddy, I think your plans will turn out great, can't wait to see it all planted up.

Trees and shrubs would be the only reason to live up north....LOL

Great discussion going on, I've learned a lot from listening to everyone.

Jan

You've got great shrub and tree possibilities down there, Jan! When I'm flip through one of my big gardening books, I see things I want that will only grow in zones 8-10.