Rose Bush Turned into Raspberry Bush - Is it Possible?

We had a single Rose bush right next to the stairs going up to our
back porch. It blossomed for many years and then last year the
stalks were much lighter green almost with a whiteish coating making
them look light blue. Something didn't look right but they did have
thorns but mostly very small ones. There were no blossoms last
summer and I fertilized it for the first time hoping that it would come
back. This summer there are many raspberries growing and a few
are starting to turn red. I'd guess that they are Killarney red raspberries
based on this description:
http://www.ehow.com/info_8536673_bushes-thorns-berries.html

I read that raspberries and roses are in the same family and I'd guess
that they were grafted onto raspberry root stock. The grafts probably
fell off and the root stock just sprouted new raspberry stalks.
Is this likely what happened?

This message was edited Jun 22, 2013 9:47 PM

PETE,

If they pass the taste test when they are ripe, then you will know for sure.

But some roses so closely resemble raspberry bushes they can fool you.

I planted some raspberries last year, and about 30 feet away, across an easement there is a jungle of rosebushes that set a red hip that resembles raspberries when they are young.

There were some volunteer plants that came up among the raspberries i planted, and i cultivated them until this Spring i noticed the leaders were greenish white on some plants and much smaller and more limber than the darker green, straight or upright leaders of the Raspberry plants. So, i went over and closely examined the Rose Jungle, and the leaders of those roses were all smaller and whiter than my Berry bushes, so i dug out the roses.

Let us know how they taste if they ripen into berries. I know the first year i lived here, I looked across the easment at all the red berries, [hips] and thought it was a raspberry patch.

How are your grape grafts doing? I kept two of the Himrod cuttings, lost one to a heat wave when the beginning roots could not keep up with the two leaves on it, and the survivor is now almost six feet tall. None of the Concord cuttings i stuck in the ground late sprouted, but i put a couple of Concord vines in a container of potting soil, tip grafting they call it, and the container is clear plastic so i can see the mass of roots. I have so many roots in the container i can pick it all up with the vines. So I will have a couple of real strong Concords to start a new location this winter.

The arbor is loaded with grapes, and i will take pictures soon. The Arbor was built in 2011, and the grapes planted about 25 months ago. Growing like crazy.

Ernie

Very interesting info Ernie, thank you! Good to hear that your grapes
are doing so well. The grafts that I did don't seem to be doing anything
not sure if they ever will but is there anything I can do but wait?
I responded here more about the grafts and scions:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=9571375

I'm not sure if I'm following but these really look like raspberries
with the bumpy seed surface (whatever it is called) and all. Do rose hips
have the bumpy surface?

Pete,

I did not examine the rose hips up close, but from a distance they did look like raspberries, as to shape and color, but from our side of the fence i could not see the little bumps.

But what you said about the color of the vines does indicate to me they are not Raspberries.

Going by what my raspberry vines look like, they are strong enough to stand up vertical, very green, and 3/8 or 9/16ths in diameter. The Rose vines i took out had leaves that looked identical to my raspberries, but the vines were light colored and only have half the diameter, and very weak, as they would not stand up alone. But you will know for sure as the Berries/Hips mature.

On the cleft grafting, i have no direct experience with that, but i do know the cells in both the scion and understock are very fragile, and probably direct cell contact is the most important with preventing drying out the second most important.

Timing and compatibility are also very important, so while the actual work is fairly simple, there is a lot of expertise that goes into know just where, when, and how to do it. I knew the time of year that we did it in Idaho, but it took me several attempts to get chip buds on Flowering Crabs to take down here, as the growing periods are so much earlier. I finally got the two trees i wanted, but it probaly took 10 or 12 attempts. So it may be very unusual for your first attempt to be successful. I hired experts to do thousands of chip buds, and since i knew the timing and had watched the men, the few that i did for fun did well up there.

It is a very satisfying hobby, and i hope you persevere until you find success at it.

Ernie

I know they graft roses on to different rootstock - but I assumed they used a hardier disease resistant rose. I have never heard of raspberries being used - but I suppose it is possible. I don't know why they would use a named variety - rootstocks usually are numbered instead of named.

I think numbering is the modern convention. There were 4 rose plants here when we moved in and I've done nearly nothing, up until last summer, other than to trim them back over the years to maintain them. One is doing well probably because it is very close and watered by a gutter down spout. I think it lost the grafts because when I tried to identify it I came up with Dr. Huey which is commonly used as a root stock:
http://hedgerowrose.com/rose-gardening/2011/06/08/growing-dr-huey-rose/
This is where I learned about rose grafting.

Anyway, what is now the raspberry plant has leaves that do not look anything like a Dr. Huey rose plant.

I took some leaves and a nearly ripe berry from the plant in the back yard to a gardening center and they say for sure that it is a raspberry plant. I ate it, it was sour probably not fully ripe. The stalks come right out of the large established base and roots that used to be our rose bush, lol! The roots and base look to be at least 20 years old so this was not some plant that grew from bird droppings or whatever. Very strange!


This message was edited Jun 26, 2013 8:12 PM

Pete, This is very interesting, and for sure,there are strange things happen.

Do you notice any other plants popping up from the roots? Raspberries are very prolific when it comes to putting out new shoots, and they are also very easy to propagate by burying the plants and leaving the tip exposed.

Do keep us posted on this. There is one other point, almost all Raspberries grow on last year's wood. Was this plant growing out last year or is this on new wood? Not sure how absolute that is, but I do know the vast majority grow that way.

Ernie

I'm going to have to get down and take a close look at the roots and base of the plant.

Just to clarify, the Dr. Huey rose is in the front of the house, and this one is in the back. I don't know the source of these plants and I'd have to guess that one used Dr. Huey rootstock and the other raspberry rootstock.

Yes, there is one stalk that looks old it is brownish and woody looking. There are others, that are probably from last year that are still green but have berries. And there are new green ones without berries, these are very crisp and break easily with a crack sound.
It is growing like crazy, I fertilized it a lot late last summer and it seems to have made a difference this season.

More raspberry plants poped up about a foot away from the main plant. I transplanted them up front near the grape vines where there is more sun.

Pete, i do not have much experience with roses, but i do not recall them setting many suckers or sprouts, but raspberries set lots of them so that is an indication these are raspberries, but quite possibly did not directly spring from the rose bush.

The stalks you describe here sound very much like raspberries, and different than the whitish rose stalks you mentioned above. The old brown stalk sounds like it is the one that should have produced fruit last year. The mature green ones should produce fruit this year and the newest ones, that may have just leaves this year, no side branches, will be the fruit producers next year.

In Idaho, the branches would die completely, after producing fruit, but in this mild climate here, i noticed to my surprise that the old canes have a very few leaves on them, and maybe a berry or two. So there are some variations to the normal growth patterns.

To go back to where you were talking about raspberries on rose rootstocks, Raspberries are so easy to propagate directly from root sprouts or hardwood cuttings, probably very little real grafting would be necessary or profitable.

Ernie

They turned very dark almost black so it seems that they're black raspberries. It is really producing probably about 15 to 20 per day. They are not very sweet but good enough if we put some sugar on them. I found another vine in the back corner of our lot.

Pete,

Have you determined yet whether these are just volunteer raspberries that have sprung up from where your rose bush happened to be, or do you still think they are from the rose bush roots?

It has taken me a year to correct the weakness from the raspberries i bought from Home Depot, but now i have a good bed that i can transplant from to a permanent location. Incidentally, when I transplant vines and such, I use a Posthole digger like a Tree Spade. Set the digger around the plant, Hammer the blades in around the plant to cut the roots, lift the digger out, take a quarter turn twist, hammer in again, and then squeeze the plant as i pull it out. Have cutters ready to cut a root if necessary. Then carry in the digger to a predug posthole, and it never knows it has been moved. I moved my blackberries that way, and will do that with these six foot raspberry canes i have now, that are the ones that will produce fruit next year. I will also have a lot of this year sprouts to transplant, so i will have a half crop next year and a full crop thereafter.

Ernie

Thanks again Ernie! That sounds like an excellent idea to use the post hole digger, I do something similar but with a shovel moving it around to get it out.

Our property backs up to some state land and I think they planted multi-flora roses along the property line when the house was built. It is now considered to be a noxious weed in our state. This stuff grows like crazy making a big chore for us to cut them back each year. They are mostly overgrown and unsightly, I'm tempted to kill it and plant the black raspberries in their place. But I think that they're similar plants in how fast black raspberries spread, at least they produce fruit. What I'm wondering is if there is really an advantage to having thorns, say to keep animals from crossing. The deer just tend to find an opening and jump over and I don't know if it really helps. I'd probably plant a modern thornless, everbearing type of raspberries at that border if I knew that the thorns didn't help with animals. Otherwise I could use the wild thorned ones that I already have.

I think we'll kill maybe 10' of the multiflora roses in a sunny spot, and start some transplants of these black raspberries. This sunny spot along the border of the property was also where I was going to put 4 more of the rooted Himrod vines that you sent. There is about a 3 ft high wire fence along the property line that might work as the trellis. Do you think it is a good idea? I wouldn't mind making a nice higher white trellis for these grape vines and black raspberries.

Pete,

We dug tens of thousands of trees of all sizes, for transplanting, at the Nursery, and the main thing there is to cut the roots as cleanly as possible and to not break or disturb the root ball, as the hair roots, which absorb the moisture are easily disturbed. With a shovel there is a tendency to pry with it, but if the required root ball is wider than the post hole digger you have to use the shovel. So, when using a shovel to transplant grind the sharpest edge possible on it. My best men carried files and kept their shovels as sharp as a knife.

Not positive about this, but i think most of the thornless berries are less productive. Thorns on raspberries are not as bad as thorns on Blackberies, which scratch and rip me much more. I keep the blackberry canes severely pruned so they do not become too dense.

Be sure you completely kill the rose bushes before planting the berries as it would not be very good to have them come back.

What i am learning about grapes that is different from the beries is the clusters are very heavy, and drag the vines down, so i am not going to allow any fruiting vines below about 36 inches. On the new vine along the fence i will have laterals at the top of the six foot fence, then then about 4.5 and 3', because of the vigor in the Himrod. With other types i will only have two laterals.

Different varieties differ in their growth habits. My blackberries need to be tied or stapled to keep them from falling over. My raspberry canes are more upright. So, i tie the BB to two single wires on that trellis, but for the Raspberry trellis i am going to make, i am going to use double wires, one foot apart, at two heights, and just let the RB canes stand upright between the two paralell wires. I am still learning and adjusting because of the stronger growth down here, so no guarantee i will not change systems in the future.

Ernie

Hi Ernie,

I looked again and the black raspberry plant is not just very close to the old rose roots, it is coming out of them. Here are some pictures:
It won't let me upload pictures for some reason - I'll try again again later.

Pictures, our back porch needs to be stained, front is done:

This message was edited Jul 12, 2013 9:41 AM

Pete,

The old canes in the picture do look like last years Raspberry vines. I do not know much about roses, but best i can recall the thorns on a rose has a much wider base. Not sure all do. But if you have a rose bush handy, compare the thorns between the two plants.

If you find any difference, it may be the volunteer raspberry seed was dropped there by a bird sitting in the old rose bush.

Strange things happen.

Ernie