A good mutation? Maybe.

An update on the Dr. Wyche's Yellow x German Red Strawberry cross I did in 2009. I've pursued three different stains this far and I'm growing the F3 generation of all three this year. These were chosen because of characteristics they displayed in the unstable F2 generation last year. They are:

Strain #1: Last generation, these were large pink hearts, very late, with excellent flavor, on semi-wispy fairly small plants. This year the F3's are loaded with large green heart-shaped tomatoes and so far seem exactly like they were last year.

Strain #3: Last year these were large orange semi-hearts, very late, good flavor, on very large plants with thick foliage. The F3's are full of large green semi-heart tomatoes, and all appearances so far are the same as last year.

Strain #4: Last generation, these were large pink flat (oblate) tomatoes, very late, with really excellent flavor (the best of all, we thought), on large plants with thick foliage. This time they've got lots of big green flat tomatoes and by appearance they're exactly the same so far this year - EXCEPT:

I have one Strain #4 plant on which two tomatoes are ripening! All my tomatoes were transplanted into the garden 63 days ago, so this plant is bearing very early - about 20 days before I'd expect it to. None of my other tomatoes, including the mid-season Big Beef and Ozark Pink hybrids on the other side of the garden, are even close to ripening yet.

I know DTM (days to maturity) is an inexact characteristic that depends on growing conditions - but it's a general indicator and a tomato variety normally wouldn't go from "very late" to "early". I'm hoping the "earliness" of this one plant might be a spontaneous mutation - and if I can get it to repeat and stabilize, and if the excellent flavor is still there, this might develop into a real good new OP variety.

I give that five stars and two thumbs up!! sounds good., or should I say delicious. HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY!!

The #1s & #3s are just starting to set fruit for me. I held them back a bit, but now are in full flowering/setting mode. I'll be able to give you a better report in a few weeks. So far, I'm seeing the same growth as you are.

#4 just found a home in the ground. I held it way back...but it should take off pretty quick now.

An Update - I believe I'll drop Strain #1 and not save seeds for the F4 generation. It's a FINE tomato - excellent flavor, medium to large pink hearts on plants with "wispy" foliage. However, it's late-bearing. We've just had the first ripe one 77 days after transplanting and though the vines are loaded with big green heart tomatoes, it's obvious most of them are going to ripen 85+ days after transplanting. I honestly can't tell Strain #1 from any number of large, pink, late-bearing Heart varieties with great flavor that already exist, so I don't feel it brings anything new.

Strain #4 - these are real good and I'll grow them for at least one more generation before making up my mind whether to continue. Strain #4 produces very large pink oblate (flat) tomatoes. These are very meaty and the flavor is definitely better than the Big Beef and Ozark Pink hybrids I'm also growing this year. A negative is that they ripen with green shoulders. However, with this F3 generation these have become EARLY to MID-SEASON tomatoes - the first ripe one was picked 65 days after transplanting and they're now in full, heavy production 77 days after transplanting. These are very large tomatoes to be this early, and I think that's a plus. Strain #4 tomatoes are the big pink ones in a line in the first picture here.

STRAIN #3 - I'm pretty excited about this one. These are very large, light orange, semi-hearts and this year the flavor is so good it just blows us away. These are much better than any other tomato I'm growing this year. The flavor is sweet, tart, and "tomato-ey" and they're very meaty with little pulp and few seeds. This strain also has become EARLY to MID-SEASON with the first ripe tomato harvested at 67 days and very heavy, full, production beginning at about 73 days. In addition to all the other good qualities, my three plants of Strain #3 are setting on new tomatoes right through our current weeks of high temps in the 90's and 100's every day. These tomatoes are very large and the plants are large with thick foliage. Production is great - the second picture shows almost three gallons of big tomatoes I picked off those three plants this morning, and there are many green ones still to come. I hope the others who are growing Strain #3 this year are getting the same results, as I think we've got a real good new OP variety in the works here.

As someone over at Tville pointed out, having two of these strains become EARLY to MID-SEASON bearers though the two original OP varieties in the cross are both LATE doesn't indicate that there was a mutation. Between the F2 and F3 generations these haven't achieved stability yet, and in the F3 it seems recessive "early" genes matched up in both Strains #3 and #4. Lucky!

This message was edited Jul 17, 2012 11:37 PM

Fabulous! Those look wonderful. I didn't have much success with my OZx seeds this year, low germination, then some kind of problem with the seedlings on most of the ones that came up. I only ended up with 1 plant going, and I think it was from the first cross.

I will be delighted to trial the 2 remaining strains if you save seeds for distribution again. They both look luscious!


Attached photo is 2 of my mutant seedlings.

paulgrow and others here are reporting tomatoes ripening far earlier than usual this year due to the heat. We're certainly getting heat - day after day with highs in the high 90's and low 100's. So, I'm going to abandon all ideas of a good mutation, etc., and attribute my early-ripening F3 generation crossed tomatoes to high temperatures. I'll have to wait for a more normal year to determine how early or late they really are.

However, the orange-ripening Strain #3 continues to shine. The flavor is excellent, the size is large, and they're very meaty with few seeds and little pulp. I think this is turning out to be a much-improved, semi-heart Dr. Wyche's Yellow, with some very good qualities added from German Red Strawberry. Also, these are somehow setting on new tomatoes every day through this terrible heat wave and drought - and the other varieties I'm growing this year aren't. I'm definitely going to take Strain #3 to the next generation and beyond to try to get it stabilized, as we're really enjoying these beautiful tomatoes.

This makes me happy. Keep the updates flowing. I am "rooting" for you!

Ozark,

I've been away for awhile due to sickness... so I didn't see this thread until now. How did your Strain #3 finish the season? Would you be interested in having some of the next generation grown in Texas next year to see how it copes with the dry and hot weather that we normally experience during the summer? I would love to give it a try.

David R

Ozark,

I planted a dozen seeds of your #3 (orange) strain today. They'll go In the garden mid-to-late March. I will plant at least six plants, possibly all 12 if the seedlings do well. I haven't had much luck with orange or yellow/gold tomatoes other than Kellogg's Breakfast. I am looking forward to the experiment and I can hardly wait to taste your orange tomato.

David R

Good, David - I'll look forward to your posting how the plants and tomatoes do. The seeds I sent you are the F4 generation which may be pretty stable already, as the F3's of this orange strain last season certainly seemed identical to the ones the year before that.

You'll see results long before I will, as I plant seeds indoors here about March 15 and transplant to the garden the first week of May.

At her request, I sent Carolyn a bunch of these F4 generation seeds so they'll be grown this year by folks she knows in the world of tomatoes. That should either popularize this new, as yet unnamed, variety - of if they all think it's a dud the variety will disappear without a trace. Well, not quite - I like it a lot so I'll keep growing it regardless.

David, I'm starting tomato seeds this weekend too. I'll be interested to see how Ozark's seeds do. Have you already started all your other tomatoes? I always start mine later then others on DG but this is late,even for me. Good luck!

Howdy, Ozark. And Lisa. And others. Not online much these days but popped in and saw this thread.

Sam, your F3 line is definitely a keeper. I had good results with it and will grow the F4 this coming year. I guess you better come up with a good name for it, eh!?

Wishing everyone the very best this coming season(s)!

Shoe

At her request, I sent Carolyn a bunch of these F4 generation seeds so they'll be grown this year by folks she knows in the world of tomatoes. That should either popularize this new, as yet unnamed, variety - of if they all think it's a dud the variety will disappear without a trace. Well, not quite - I like it a lot so I'll keep growing it regardless.

%%%%%%

Actually I offered to put those F4 seeds in my seed offer Ozark, THEN I requested that you send me the seeds, THEN I had a panic moment and couldn't find them even though I knew they'd arrived and told you so, and THEN I contacted you asking if you had any more, THEN, I found the envelope with your seeds in my walker basket where they had somehow gotten into an opened envelope of a bank statement. LOL

Sending out seeds for my seed offer is going slowly for many reasons, but several have requested them and I still have lots of SASE's to open and pack seeds so I expect several more will as well.

Where I live we were "shadowed" by the Green Mts in VTso didn't get all that much snow, looking out there I'd guess maybe 6-8 inches. And the Town plow truck just went up the road.

Shoe, delighted to see that you're still alive and well. ( smile)

Carolyn

Mornin'...

Yeh, I'm still alive and kicking, just not kicking as high as I used to! :>)
Waiting for this years seeds though (tapping fingers.......).

Glad to hear you aren't snowed in like so many other up your way. Last I heard there was an average of 3 ft of snow blanketing that part of the country.

Coffee cup is once again empty, off to the greenhouse to get more seeds going...I can't let Ozark, Lisa, and David get too far ahead of me!

Happy Gardening!

"Actually I offered to put those F4 seeds in my seed offer Ozark, THEN I requested that you send me the seeds"
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Yep, and I really appreciate your doing that, Carolyn. Here, the news is all about how many FEET of snow folks are getting in the NE, so I'm glad your local area didn't get hit that hard. Here so far we've had snow only twice so far, 1/2" each time and it was gone within a day or so. So far, so good this winter - we've had more short-sleeve shirt days than snow days and we're getting closer to spring. Maybe I'll be able to take the snow blade back off my tractor without using it all season!!!!

Shoe, I'm real glad you liked the orange F3. I think it's a good one - an improved Dr. Wyche's Yellow, really (sorry, doc) with some desirable flavor, shape, and "meatiness" genes added from GRS. I'll hold off on a name until we're sure it's stable and that there's some interest in the new variety. I'd thought "Heart of Gold" would be nifty, but that won't work because it's a semi-heart not a true heart tomato. "Half-Hearted" might be appropriate? lol

Shoe-it's soooo good to see you posting again.

Carolyn- you have me laughing out loud. I just went thru a similar seed odessy, just found the seeds last night. Lol I'm not as mad at myself, now that I realize I'm in good company.

Off to sow more seeds.

Yeh, I'm still alive and kicking, just not kicking as high as I used to! :>)
Waiting for this years seeds though (tapping fingers...).

%%%%%%

Well you just keep a tapping there Shoe, and he's referring to seed I sent him for growouts that are new, and he does a great job at seed production for my seed offers and such, b/c first comes my seed offer obligations hnow, then SSE requests now, then seeds to the several companies where I send them for trial, then to long time friends, most of them SSE friends, since we exchange the best of our best every year, then what might be left over I send to my brother, now in NC. He's requested Dester and the new Serbian cherry called Durmitor, so we shall see.

Only then will I pull out the maila envelope with the new ones for this season.

Get the picture Shoe? I can't tell you how many new ones for his season, LOTS, and besides Shoe, who does the most, there's Lee in NC, Neil in IL and now Nancy in NYS who used to help and is eager to help again b'c she loves growing out all new vareiteis.

OK, I'm allowing myself to watch some live tennis with Rafa Nadal, so off I go to check the timing, I think 5 PM Eastern from S America..

Carolyn

I'll be patient, Carolyn. I have plenty to keep me busy in the meantime, probably too busy but I wouldn't know how to be otherwise.

"Half-hearted"...heheheh, good thinking, Ozark. I'm sure when you figure out the perfect name you'll just know it when you hear it.

Shoe (full of fried fish, butter beans, and collards. I gotta go rest and digest!)

How about Half-Hearted Sam?

I like that, LOL

Carolyn

"How about Half-Hearted Sam?"
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Now quit that, or I'll name it Faux Male. LOL

Sam,

Did you notice any problems germinating seeds from your #3 hybrid? Did you notice if they are just slower to germinate? I planted a dozen seeds on the 7th, along with my other tomato seedlings. Your cross is the only one that doesn't have any that have germinated. I planted the same as always, using Jiffy pellets in a covered tray on a heat mat set for 78 degrees. I have pretty good growth on almost all the others. I took the cover off today, because the seedlings were getting leggy due to lack of light. I've arranged the heat mat so your seeds still get heat, but I'm worried that they aren't going to grow.

I'm may try a baggy & coffee filter test for some of the seeds I have left. If I get those to germinate then I can plant them.

David

Uh-oh. You're the first to grow the F4 generation seeds, so far as I know. I won't start my tomato seeds until March 15, and I sent Carolyn most of these seeds I had to include in her seed offer. So NO ONE has actually grown these yet - always a bit of a worry.

I don't think anything was wrong with my seed saving / fermentation / drying of these last fall - I've saved tomato seeds many times before and always successfully. Still, we'll see.

I've still got some F3 generation seeds that I planted from last year, so at the worst I've lost a year and not the whole strain. That would hurt, though - hope it ain't so.

Sam, I'm now on the last of the seed offer participants, the non-US ones, and I'm pretty sure I'll have some of those F4 seeds that I can send back to you if that helps.

Carolyn

Sam, I'm now on the last of the seed offer participants, the non-US ones, and I'm pretty sure I'll have some of those F4 seeds that I can send back to you if that helps. - Carolyn
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Carolyn, thanks. I was just about to email you about this. No, the F4 seeds I sent to you, to David, and kept here are all out of the same fermentation and the same envelope. Unless the Post Office did something to David's enroute - I'm afraid if they're bad, they're all bad. I'll try starting some in damp paper towels today, so we'll soon know.

Have you ever had tomato seeds ruined in the mail? I don't see how that could happen unless they got very hot or the envelope was radiated, or something.

I've got lots and lots of seeds saved in 2011 of the F3 generation of this orange strain. I'm sure those are good because I had about 100% germination of them last spring and they've been stored in cool, dry conditions indoors ever since. I think this strain stabilized very quickly because I couldn't observe any difference at all between the F3's last year and the F2's the previous year - so I'm thinking these good F3 seeds are about the same as the F4's would have been anyway.

It sounds like it's too late, but if we think the F4 seeds won't sprout, I can send you F3 seeds to include in your seed offer. Or - I'd be happy to mail those as replacements to folks you've already sent F4's to, if that helps. Let me know.

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Edited to Add: Monday afternoon, I've started some F4 generation seeds in a damp, folded paper towel placed near a heat vent. We should know in a few days whether this batch of seeds is good or not.

David, I'm mailing you some more F4 seeds in the morning as well as some F3's saved the previous year. I suggest planting some of each and labeling them separately - the F4's in case the previous ones were somehow ruined in the mail, and the F3's because I'm sure they'll sprout and I think they'll produce virtually identical results anyway.

This message was edited Feb 18, 2013 12:57 PM

Thanks Sam. I will plant them as soon as they arrive and let you know. After seeing your message, above, I dug up a couple of the seeds. One was not swollen at all, and seems to be lifeless. Another was a little bit swollen,.and looking very closely one can see what might be the start of a sprouting root. It could also be a fungus... I don't have a microscope to look really closely. Here's a macro photo, but it loses focus at full magnification.

David

Sam, I'm not set up here to do some germination of the seeds but I don't think it's hot weather since you sent them up here in I think Dec and probably the same to others as well.

And I don't think it's the USPS since they stopped X-raying stuff except for the zip codes that surround and are in DC, and yes, back in 2008 we found that the new roller system the USPS was using did crush seeds, and I did a little test of that myself, but padding the seeds sent takes away that worry.

So I'll be anxious to hear about germination and my germination thread for my seed offer goes up soon, but I ask only that 2/5 varieties sent be grown this season.

Carolyn

Thanks for your help with this, Carolyn and David. Carolyn, I hope I haven't messed up your seed offer with seeds that won't germinate. I should know if the F4 seeds are viable by this weekend.

Sam, I've got quite a few F4's saved. I'll start some in a week or so and let you know how they do.
I seriously doubt there will be any germination problem though. The only time I've had that happen was when I fermented seeds in the super heat wave of two years ago. (I'm sure Carolyn remembers. :>+

David, it looks to me like one of your seeds has an emerging radicle (sprouting root, as you say). I wouldn't give up on it. Those seeds look kinda dark colored to me...were they presoaked in something before you sowed them?

Shoe

I replanted the seed with the seed root. Hopefully it will grow. I'm testing germination on the 8-9 seeds I have left. The seeds I got from Sam were somewhat grey, but they darkened more in the moist peat pellets. I'm leaving the other planted F4's alone, hoping they are just slow.

Replacement F4 generation seeds, as well as F3 generation seeds saved in 2011, are on the way to you this morning by priority mail.

Sam,

I received the new seeds in this afternoon's mail. I will start them tonight. So far, none of the 10 seeds I had extra from the first batch have shown any sign of growth on the damp coffee filter on the heat mat. The original seeds in the pellets have likewise shown no growth.

I will let you know how both the F3 and second batch of F4 seeds work out.

David

And please post the same here David b/c I need to know as well.

My germination thread at Tville I'll be puttingt up soon and if there's a problem I can update folks on that first page where I have some other updates to put as well, but the others are variety name changes.

Thanks,

Carolyn

Well, the F4 seeds aren't dead. They may be damaged, though - or maybe they're perfectly OK, I don't know.

Carolyn and Shoe - I'll post this picture and rely on what you experts think. I put some F4 generation seeds in wet paper towels in a warm spot 4 days (about 96 hours) ago. Within 24 hours every seed had a small white root emerge, and I thought "Great, I'm going to be able to report 100% germination". In the three days since, though, they haven't changed much in appearance.

Every seed has a radicle visible, but they're no more than 1/32" to 1/16" long. None of the seeds are grey, they're all light yellow/brown, and it's only been four days (about 96 hours) since they were started. They actually look fine to me and I think maybe I'm just rushing things, but I did expect to see more growth in Days 2, 3, and 4. What do you think - are these F4 seeds OK or are they damaged? - Sam

This message was edited Feb 22, 2013 5:34 PM

Sam, I'm perhaps not the best one to ask since I've never tested germination using wet paper towels athough I know some do. I only know if seeds are good by sowing them in artificial mix.

My question being, should one expect to see the radicals getting longer with time on that kind of surface?

I know when I thin out young seedlings that I ocassionally disturb some seeds that do have radicals and from time to time I rebury them and they form nice seedlings.

The seeds looked good to me when I took some out of the pack that you sent me to pack and send to others.

Carolyn

Still no growth on the planted or test seeds. I have grown seeds on damp paper before and normally the radicle continues growing. It forms tiny root hairs-- on paper towels the root hairs tangle in the fibers. Growing on coffee filters reduces the tangles when moving the tiny seedlings to a starter pot.

I planted a dozen of each of the F3 and F4 and they are tented over an 80-degree heat mat. Hopefully all will do well.

Your seeds look good to me, too, Sam.

Are they getting too cool at night maybe? That would slow them down quite a bit. David, were yours on the 80º heat mat before? Curiouser and curioser....

I sowed some F4 seeds on Wed (20th) in potting mix. I'll check them this weekend.

Shoe

Shoe-- in all cases the seeds were on the heat mat. The first planting (on the 7th) has been on the heat mat the whole time. The test germination and the new seeds I received from Sam on Thursday are also on the heat.

Sam-- has there been any more growth on your germination test?

David - yes, I just checked them this morning. All the seeds I started, 100%, are showing more growth now with the best having roots over 1/8" long. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that these F4 generation seeds are viable. We'll never know what happened to that first batch of seeds I sent you - we've still got ice on the ground, and our mail goes from here through even-more-frozen Kansas City. Maybe that envelope was in a bag too close to a heater in a post office sorting room or something.

Carolyn, I think my seeds you sent out are OK.

Still no sprouts on the initial seedlings, but I do have a couple of seedlings emerging from both the F3 & F4 batches I received last week. Hopefully, there will be more to come!

Good. I'm glad to hear the F4's are sprouting for you. I was worried because Carolyn has sent F4's of the big orange strain to other people, and if the seeds wouldn't sprout that would be pretty bad. I got 100% germination of the ones I started a week ago, so they're fine.