container medium ingredients

I know there is one medium recipe that calls for Pine Bark FINES, which I believe are darn near impossible to find but I did locate a cypress mulch that is about as finely ground as any I have seen - do you suppose the type of mulch (pine bark vs cypress will matter).

Also, I use Vermeculite in the medium mix when potting up container plants. I see the building supply has Vermeculite in very large bags for use in construction (I think insulation) at about a third of the cost of the much smaller bags Vermeculite in their garden center. The fellow at the center said they are the same thing... given the cost of gardening, I wouldn't mind saving some money here but don't want to risk unhealthy tomatoes. Anyone have any knowledge about this?

If you're referring to the mix that goes in the container where you'll put the tomato plant then I know several use what I do and that's 1/2 good soilless mix such as Pro-Mix and 1/2 bagged composted cow manure.

The only time I've used vermiculite is using it for the mix that I used to grow the seedlings after the initial transplating from the seed pans and then it was 1/2 vermiculite and 1/2 good soilless mix which really cuts the cost instead of using all soilless mix to grow the seedlings.

A few times I used 1/4 vermiculite plus 1/4 perlite added to 1/2 good soilless mix.

Vermiculite and perlite are inexpensive and are also found as components fo many soilless mixes as well.

Carolyn


Carolyn

DO NOT USE THE VERMICULITE FOR INSULATION....

Why not,GG? It is just coarser than the small bags.

I'm curious about this to... and do you mean not to use it FOR insulation (as a building material) or not to use the one intended for insulation as a container medium?

Yeah, I had the same question. What is in the stuff you get from EarthBox or Tomato Success Kit?

Yeah, in addition to getting that question answered, I'd like to keep the thread going about member's experiences using alternates to Pro-Mix or Pine Bark Fines (which I seem unable to find in the stores) and would like to use either shredded Cyprus Mulch or Coco shells as a substitute (along with peat, Vermeculite and sand).

I use some coconut coir varied ingredients, all is sold as expanding soil, it lasts over time and improves with time. As itdoes pack slightly it is that, only slightly, I belive the pine needles are for air circulation, and maybe acidity.The core accomplishes the same.

I may beat Linda on this one.. There is a VERY good, informative sticky on the Container Forum authored by tapla that goes into VERY SPECIFIC do's & don'ts with making a container mix... I had many questions and when I spent the time to go through all 3 sticky's, I gleaned a LOT of information and you will see some of my questions in the last of the sticky's...

This set of sticky's have over 500 posts and over 20,000 views. A lot of people have responded and viewed these sticky's, as there is SO MUCH information there...

Pine bark Fines are VERY hard to find. You will have to do some searching around for them. You won't see them labeled as such. It's going to be a "buy & try" deal until you find the material that suits your mix. Also, you will more than likely have to screen it to get the "fines" you want. I use a 1/2" deep fryer basket to strain mine. Did this because you can't find 3/8" mesh, which is the preferred. Use 1/2" and you will be doing great... You can find the 1/2" mesh at Lowe's or HD, and build a screening table, that's one of my winter projects to be ready for next year...

Tapla's post is the very one I was referring to (I couldn't think of his name when I first posted) and Pine Bark fines are simply not available in my area... period... which is why I am asking if anyone had any experience with SUBSTITUTING with something else, like cypress or coco shells. Yes, Tapla's post has an overwhelming number of responses (actually, too many to be useful in a practical sense). I do know he advised if you can't get the fines then don't do the mix but that is appreciated cautious advice based on his experience with fines. Anyway, I'm hoping to hear from folks who container garden using other types of filler.

Yeah, that was my experience too, that while Tapla obviously knows his stuff, I can't remember what I learned in the first post by the time I get to the last one. He tries to summarize and explain but those threads are too much for this camper! I usually want to know EVERYTHING but at this age, I'm beginning to feel like I know enough about soil movement in containers and just sell me some Miracle Gro cactus mix already! Hehehe. He's a great guy and at one point I wanted to do a DG article about the container soil stuff but I got dizzy trying to figure it all out. I definitely don't have his green thumb.

If I get some of this correctly(NOT SURE IF I DO) The only near ever with me was the old tree stump material ,broken down to looks like sphagnum,only coarser. the only way to get that is from the bottom of an old woodstack,a tree stump breaking down that your allowed access unto,or to take three four years and make it yourself.Have grown flowers a few houseplants that way,even used it for a starter mix.Still were back that problem of readily available,and access.
Ground nutshell hull are out unless your growing high acid plant desires,way to acid when tried years ago.That was when you you get them for pennies yourself.(as walnut shells)
The only thing I've heard of in recent years is peanut shells being somtimes sold in bulk,and still those require something mixed with them.However the last time I tried those they worked well. I suppose you could save your coconut shells from the supermarket.Still, that might take while.(knew a few who use too)

Walnut plants contain juglone, which inhibits growth of some but not all plants; I believe there is a DG article on the topic. I don't know which plants are and aren't inhibited,I don't know whether the shells are bad compared to the roots or the leaves or the sap, but I'm sure those are things you could find out. Just be careful!

Coconut shells are sold as a recycled - re-purposed material around here somewhere, but they are still, I believe, insufficient to support tomato life, which is, I think,the topic of this thread. ^_^

I also think part of Tapla's goal was to ensure proper proportions of different soil components. Your wonderful tree stump (I had a similar experience with a crab apple stump) doesn't lend itself to quantization.

Has my question about vermiculite been answered yet? Did I miss it- several others want to know, also.

Paraphrasing what tapla answered to my vermiculite/perlite question, perlite displaces moisture and vermiculite retains water to disperse later. The vermiculite is bad in a container mix that is generally to fine to begin with, and then adding vermiculite on top of it, since it holds water for so long, leaves no space for air to get to the roots.

Also there is no difference in size of material, just the package is larger...

This message was edited Apr 24, 2012 9:54 PM

If your question was about not using vermiculite for insulation, Common sense would suggest that since vermiculite absorbs and retains moisture it would not be desirable to have waterlogged insulation.

Ernie

Well I'm as confused now as ever as it seems we have six thread going here.

First: (Because this was MY thread) I am NOT talking about coconut shells (where did that come from) as they woudl be awfully big. I said COCO shells COCO BEANS.

Second: Here's a different description about what Vermiculite and Perlite (from Ask.com): "Perlite ...promotes moisture retention and good drainage. Vermiculite ...retains moisture and air within soil. So it sounds as though Vermeculite is actually the AIR enhancer. I have been told that commercial nurseries use this in their mixes.

Yes, many nurseries do use vermiculite and perlite in their mixes as they raise and offer plants of all kinds and one of the reasons is b'c both are very light and drain well, and being light it's easier to move flats and trays around.

But for home gardening containers, I'm now forced to use Gro-bags and some containers, using JUST those two is not enough b'c neither has any nutritional value.

Which is why in the beginning of this thread I mentioned using 1/2 a good soilless mix, and most of them do have both vermiculite and sometimes perlite, as well as 1/2 composted bagged cow manure.

I think the differences in what some folks are suggesting is related to where they live and grow their tomatoes and has to do with weather related issues. Many of us live where the water comes out of the sky on a regular basis and some live where they have to water all the time.

At least in my opinion that's a factor as well as coir and other products being used more locally, in a geographic sense. it seems to me that the TX and FL and CA folks probably have concerns that those of us who grow in the more northern zones don't have problems with, bad sentence, that. LOL

Carolyn

kevcarr659, I don't mean to be argumentative, but there IS a difference in the size of vermiculite- I have used both - the small bags are a fine size, which can easily be a water retention concern. However, the large bag, (which are sold in Lowe's garden shop) are a very coarse size granule.(about the size of a BB). Yes, it does retain water, but one would not use a huge amount of it, I wouldn't think. Perlite on the other hand, does not absorb water, so would act more of an aerator in a mix. Perlite has a caustic dust, so you should not breath it in as you dump it into a container.

michaelangelo - cocoa is poisonous to dogs. I've read of dogs dying because the liked the taste of cocoa mulch.

There is horticultural vermiculite and horticultural perlite. (I use both.) They tend to have larger particles than what you can purchase locally.

http://homeharvest.com/soilamendmentsperlitevermiculite.htm

Honeybee- thanks for this tip about dogs... the bag of coco shells is going back as we have dogs!

As for the reply on vermiculite and perlite: I think this thread is getting very twisted up by all, at least from the standpoint of what I originally posted when I created the post: T state it again and ask reponders to please stay on track with it or refrain from posting if their experience is about something other than this...

I use Vermiculite from Lowe's garden center in the medium mix when potting up container plants. I see the BUILDING SUPPLY division has Vermeculite in very large bags for use in construction (I was told insulation). It is about a third of the cost of the much smaller bags Vermeculite in their garden center. The fellow at the center said they are the same thing... given the cost of gardening, I wouldn't mind saving some money here but don't want to risk UNHEALTHY tomatoes. Anyone have any knowledge about the difference between the two, especially in terms of purity/health or major effect on growing if in fact the particle sizes are very different? Thanks!

Michelangelo, instead of the pine bark fines in Al's recipe, I am using pine bark mulch (uncomposted) that I bought from a local nursery (not one of the big box stores) for my tomatoes this year. Screening is out of the question for me (wheelchair), so I'm just using it straight from the bag. I would think you should be able to find something like this in Minnesota...it probably comes from your state! :)

The nursery also sells something they call "soil conditioner", which is composted pine bark. I used some of this for my first batch (it was on hand), and while I think it is an improvement over the potting mix I've used in the past, I think the uncomposted will retain much more air.

I would not substitute any other wood species for pine...Al answered my question about that just a couple weeks ago, and he convinced me.

At $3.75 per 2 cuft bag, I think this will be a lot cheaper than buying potting soil! One bag makes about 3 of Al's "small batch" recipes, and filled 2-3 of my tomato containers.

I have found Perlite in the garden section at Lowes where they also have orchid potting mix.

Jo>> No problem whatsoever... We used to warehouse vermiculite for another company, and it was the big 4 foot bags. The big bags are the only product that I've seen or handled. Knowing nurseries use both vermiculite & perlite, I just assumed the small bags were the same size product as in the big bags. You can definitely see the difference between vermiculite & perlite when you get the transplants from nurseries & the big box stores...

Case in point, bought 4 cf. bag perlite from a nursery last week, was at another nursery today, same bag, same manufacturer, different "grade" mark checked on the bag... Only difference my bag was in Spanish only, as this product comes from Mexico, the second bag had English/Spanish language. Asked the person what the difference was in the two grades, and of course, they didn't know... Will just have to take some with me to compare when we go back and pick up the tree Momma eyed for our front yard...

Well I think this is developing into an interesting conversation - the goal here is to figure out if BIG bags of vermiculite (found in building supply places) is the same/as safe as the small bags at nursery type retailers that easily cost THREE TIMES AS MUCH.

Several people (including Tapla and the Earthbox site) have recommended adding a cup of lime to the container mix for tomatoes. I do this and at least it doesn't harm them!

Farm supply stores are a good source of large bags of either coarse or fine vermiculite at reasonable prices.