New raised beds!

I'm excited so I guess I'll put this little bit of news here. For my birthday (a few days ago), hubby took me out to the garden center for a restocking of some supplies I wanted. But then, yesterday, as a real surprise, he built me 2 more raised boxes -- 4'x8' and 10" high. Oh happy day, he just tripled my raised bed space.

Now since I have a clean slate, I'm going to have to go back and read to get a little refresher on what should go in the beds, soil wise. What have we all learned, lol? Best advice.

I'm going to list what I have here, and hope for comments on how you think this mixture would be if I put it all together in one of the raised beds (may only be enought to fill one half of one raised bed). It will help guide me for what else to buy to complete all the beds.
Here is what I have:
2 large bags (4 cu ft) vegetable bedding soil (has peat and is lighter than regular soil, but definitely not as light as container mix. )
2 large bags (4 cu ft) pine bark mulch (pretty small pieces, most pieces are 1" or smaller)
3 cu ft compost (seems very light and fluffy, 1 cu of it is mushroom compost)
2 small bags of perlite -- those dinky bags about the size of a large box of Cheerios.
I also have a little extra peat around here, maybe 1/2 cu ft, a bag of play sand, and odds and ends (blood meal, rock dust, sulphur, etc.)

My biggest question is, I'm debating whether to use that veg bedding soil or leave it out (will use elsewhere in the garden, of course). It seems pretty nice, but what seems nice at the beginning of a season often ends up feeling too heavy (compacted) a short while later. Maybe if I spread it out over both beds instead of one bed, or just use 1 bag total of it.

Note: I don't have ready access to anything that isn't at a big box store, so I'm hoping for comments on ratios of what I've already listed (buy more of which items?) or additional stuff that is common. (If don't have access to cottonburr, Azomite or Turface for example!)
Thanks!

Happy Bday to You!

Congrats on the new RBs!!!

Re: what to fill them in I've been talking a lot with Al (Tapla) on this same topic. Now that my fence is up, I can start on my RB and I knew I'd be dumping all the buckets into the RB.

Al suggested the following) planting recipe:

5 parts pine bark fines (no need to sift the large particles out)
1 part sedge peat (the seaweed skimmed off of wherever they skim it)
W
1 part native topsoil
1 part sharp sand (builder's sand - larger particles)

The main consideration is to have a large enough part of MINERAL make-up to your mix, so the structure won't collapse so quickly. The organic stuff you add WILL break down faster, but your mineral components will help hold it up, so it maintains good aeration and drainage (which shouldn't be a problem, since the earth acts like a giant wick.

Then adjust your moisture retention with the vermiculite, which holds more moisture. The Perlite aids with the drainage and create little pockets for air.

Hope I made some sense here. Look in the tags for "Tapla's Raised Bed Recipe," or "Raised Bed Recipe."

I can't list the link here easily from my drop dead at any moment cellphone.

Keep this thread going!!

Linda

Thanks, Linda. After I posted this, I found some of the soil discussions and did a lot of reading. I appreciate your recap of things. All that you listed looks doable, although I've never heard of sedge peat. I do have the traditional stuff (although not enough).

I do want to use some compost though, too. I appreciate the discussion of the importance of aeration and don't want to mess that up, but I've had the concept of compost drilled into me for years now (Mel Bartholomew, etc!) so it feels like heresy not to use at least SOME compost in there, lol. I'm just wondering if it should be something I would add in addition to the above list (your post), or if it would be used in place of some of the pine bark fines, or perhaps in place of the topsoil.

LiseP,
I would definitely include the compost and your other amendments with the other ingredients. You can't ever have too much organics in a raised bed! The only consideration is that the organic material will break down, and this isn't a problem. The thing to do is add enough of a mineral content (your native topsoil, the sharp sand, the large slivers of the pine bark (not chunky nuggets or mulch)) that will not so readily collapse and compress, but will hold up your organic matter that IS breaking down.

Less compression/compaction = better drainage, and aeration.

I saw my seedlings take off like jets in the fast-draining, well-aerated recipe Al recommended for my containers (a bit different from the RB formula -- no compost or organic amendments added to avoid compression)

Linda ^^_^^

Congratulations Lise!! What a dream of a husband. Those RBs sound like THE perfect gift!! I know you had a happy birthday. lol

Linda, would you mind sharing where you buy your PBFs and sedge peat in the Houston area?

Congrats on your new beds and love the recipe for filling them. I wish I knew where to find some "Sedge peat" too!

Cindy

For trace elements also get some rock dust or greensand.

TBaby,
Here's where I get my double-grind pine bark fines. It's great stuff, and I've been really happy with it, mainly because it only costs $30/yard and goes a loooooooooooong way in my containers. Far cheaper than using 100% MG Potting Mix for all those buckets!

Timber Solutions
Jimmy Quinn
14022 S. Gessner
Missouri City, Texas 77479
281-208-2373 (S. Gessner Location)
936-321-8111 (Conroe Location)

7:00a-5:00p, M-F
7:00a-3:00p, Saturdays
Closed Sundays

LiseP,
Here's the link I was looking for. Al didn't make any corrections to what I posted in this entry, so the info is good to go! According to the recipe, you can use the compost OR the reed/sedge peat!

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=8446924

P.S.
Here's a pic of the double-grind pine bark fines I buy at Timber Solutions, AFTER I have sifted the larger chunks out, by rubbing it over 1/2" hardware cloth. The larger chunks will go into my raised bed, in the formula in the link.

The sifting is only necessary for using the smaller fines and up to nickel-size bark slivers in a container mix.

Linda

This message was edited Oct 11, 2011 11:09 AM

Awesome, Linda! Thanks for that link and your comments, it's exactly what I need. Tommy, thanks, I do have some rock dust and will add some. Txbabybloomer and Cindy_Ga, appreciate the birthday wishes. I agree, it's the perfect gift and bless hubby for doing it!

New but related question. My boxes are open on the bottom -- should I lay down weed blocker, cardboard or newspaper? Or is it not needed? I don't remember what I did for my first box. I didn't think I used anything, but hubby thinks I put down weed blocker. (My mind is going!)

Anyway, the yard has no grass, the boxes are going down on mostly bare earth. At times, there can be a few weeds. Right now it's little clover-type stuff in just a few patches, but in spring there can be a few taller weeds. Would they grow up through several inches of soil, I wonder? Or maybe I should scrape away the top inch of ground, to eliminate most weed seeds before filling the boxes?

I don't actually have cardboard, newspaper or weed blocker handy, but if the advice is to use it, I'll get it. If I use anything, I'm leaning toward weed blocker, though. I've used newspaper before (different garden) and it decomposed pretty quickly.

A few factors -- I'm all for wicking action and worms, but not weeds or pill bugs. LOL, probably can't have everything.

LiseP,
Now we're truly on the same page. My box(es) are going on bare earth too. I'm gonna smother the site with weed block AND a layer of cardboard. Been saving up large pieces from office furniture deliveries here.

DO NOT SCRAPE AWAY THAT SOIL!!! I learned a very interesting thing about weed seeds. Seems they exist in the top 1"-3" of most ALL soil. The two growing requirements are water and LIGHT. Once you disturb a layer of soil and expose them to the light, POP! POP! POP, goes the weeds!

We also end up causing ourselves more grief when we attempt to DE-weed our yards by grabbing huge hunks of weeds, pulling them out of big holes, thereby exposing the dormant seeds that were there all along -- just waiting for some light.

So, smother that site with something...but don't expose any more weed seeds to the light, as you can help it.

Linda

Thanks Linda. I want it for some RBs. Now if I can just figure out how much 30 yards is??!! Then I'll know what to take to go pick it up.lol

And did you use the sedge peat? I would love to find out where to find that!!

Not sure if we're on the same page or not. So your weedblock and cardboard are going to be a permanent layer at the bottom of your boxes? (Or are you just using those things as general preparation of the site, but not as a permanent layer). Just want to be clear.

Whew, thanks for saving me on that 'scraping soil' - that would have been a mistake!

LiseP,
The cardboard breaks down eventually. I'll use the weedblock along the sides and under the edges for creeping stuff. And, throw in some earthworms, too! They churn all the organic under and leave rich castings.

TBaby,
Google "free online conversion calculators". You put in your dimensions, and the depth you want your soil, and it tells you how much you'll need to fill it to that depth.

I put one in the tags, here. Look for that one before going online.

Thanks, good gardening buddy! I appreciate the clarification. I can't figure out how to see a tag, lol, but I'm okay on the conversion stuff, I think, and am pretty good at googling. Thanks again.

LiseP - you might want to use course perlite, rather than that found in the smaller bags. I buy mine here:

http://wormsway.com/detail.aspx?t=prod&sku=ECP940IN

I also like the addition of worm castings in new raised beds

http://wormsway.com/detail.aspx?t=prod&sku=EC430

And I prefer coconut coir to peat

http://wormsway.com/detail.aspx?t=prod&sku=EC430

Mulched fall leaves are a good addition, too

I don't know if any of you have a problem with termites but when I see all these posts about cardboard or newspapers I wonder how you handle that problem. I need help with what to put in raised beds because we have no access to leaves but this part of the country has terrible problem with termites. Does it matter if they are in the garden?

That perlite looks wonderful, HoneybeeNC, but out of my price range when you add shipping ($55 total - ouch!). A better option for me is taking a trip to a nursery not *too* far away where I can buy a large (4cu ft?) bag of regular perlite for $30 or so.

As for the mulched fall leaves, is it okay to put some in and then plant winter stuff immediately? Or did you mean to throw the leaves in and let them sit over the winter?

I picked up some weed blocker to night. Linda, is it just due to expense that you're going to put cardboard in the middle instead of all weed blocker? Any reason that I can't just put all weed blocker down?

I was surprised tonight to find that Lowe's has decomposed (I think that's the term?) granite so I picked up a bag of that to increase the mineral content. I'm sure I read that somewhere in tapla's discussion. And, I was looking for builder's sand but found only "paver's sand" -- am hoping that's the same or comparable.

lizardbreath (what a name, lol!), I don't have termite problems here, so can't address it. Maybe someone else can, though.

LiseP,
I want happy worms. I've not had experience with weed block, except that I'm currently lining my free draining buckets with them this season, to keep the pine bark from washing out.

I had a small root veggie bed in my last garden, and lined it with cardboard. When I broke that bed down, the cardboard had broken down and there were scores of earthworm down under.

I'm concerned the weed block will inhibit my earthworm mobility thru the soil.

Ah, now I get it, Linda. Thanks.

LiseP - mulched leaves don't have much in the way nutrients, but once they break down they make wonderful free dirt. How I do it is:

> I run the mower over the leaves several times to get them as small as possible (about the size of my little finger nail)
> I make a trench down the middle of each raised bed, digging down until I reach the clay at the bottom
> I fill the trenches with the mulched leaves

That's it! The earthworms eat the leaves,and fertilize them as they go with their castings.

You can put in plants or seeds each side of the trench.

Now, if you want to use the center of your raised bed for your plants, you could just put a smaller trench of mulched leaves on each side of your plants, next to the rim of the bed. I've never done this as I usually put in two rows of whatever I'm growing into each bed.

Mulching leaves this way also makes for a great regular mulch during the summer. I mix in some organic fertilizer, and put it around whatever is growing - keeping it away from the actual stem of each plant. When it rains, the fertilizer get slowly washed into the soil around the plants.

I store mulched leaves in 25 gallon plastic pots throughout the year. There are never enough leaves! LOL

And, if you've got inconspicuous space out back somewhere, now's the time to go "curb creeping" and collect your neighbors' bagged up leaves. Bring 'em home, punch holes in the bag so the rain can wet them down periodically, and pile 'em up. In a year, you'll have all the beautiful mulch/humus you want.

Or, you could just identify your neighbors who DO NOT have dogs or cats, and ask them for their bagged up leaves -- offer them a couple bags every now and then, as a "good neighbor" measure!

Linda

Gymgirl - I'll be "curb creeping" in a week or two. I've tried storing the leaves in the bags as you suggest, but have found the plastic breaks down and the bags fall apart, and I have to collect all the little pieces of plastic.

LiseP,

The pine bark, decomposed granite and compost all sound great to me. You can substitute 5+ layers of wetted newspaper for corrugated cardboard - they say the cardboard or newsprint seems to attract worms. So do coffee grounds - the perfect soil amendment: attracts worms, adds both carbon AND nitrogen, and smells good!

I mainly wanted to chime in with my obsession about drainage.

Ideally, your raised beds should be sited or trenched so that their feet don't flood. Even if they currently sit on top of awfull clay or unusable soil, everything you add to your 10" deep bed will tend to perk downwards and improve the underlying soil over a period of years.

If the bed is sited in a low spot with poor drainage, water will pool under the bed and create a low-oxygen "no-go-zone" for roots. That would limit you to a 10" root zone.

But if the bed is on a slight slope (even very slight), or the soil it sits on DOES already drain straight down, roots and worms will be able to grow into it, loosen it, enrich it, and turn it into a deep reservoir of water and minerals to carry your plants through times lacking rain or fertilizer.

If the new beds' bases don't already drain well, consider cutting a narrow trench from their base to an even lower spot. Draining water away from the base of your root zone could make your 10" bed function as an 18 or even 24" bed!

For persepctive, this is like enhancing a raised bed so that it is both raised AND sunken. I think of it as getting an extra 12" of soil for free (and only having to water half as often).

Corey

Great point, Corey!

LiseP AND Corey,
I've decided to build my raised beds only once. Subsequently, I'm going to go ahead with Pavestone retaining walls 18" with caps, since my bed walls will do double-duty and serve as seating in my yard. After calculating how much each box would be to build out of pressure treated lumber, I figured I may as well do the concrete pavers, and be done with it, once and for all.

So, I'll be calling on you, Corey, to advise me about that drainage issue, and you, LiseP to keep me on task!

I understand totally about the need for good drainage underneath, as I just had French Drains put in last year to divert water away from my patio, which sits below the soil line (I think from years of mulch build-up on the grass -- the yard just sorta built itself up!)

Anyway, I've been viewing lots of DIY videos on constructing the retaining wall, and it doesn't look hard at all. In fact, Saturday, I reset the pavers for a half-moon wall around a small rose bush. It wasn't set properly from the beginning (by my DHEX), and the pavers looked awful snaking up and down. I was quite pleased with my handiwork, and saw from the videos that I was only off on one step!

So, I'm gathering all my project tools to tackle this in about two more weeks, cause those seedlings are not waiting on me!!!

Hugs!

Linda

P.S. Here's a progress pic from last night. It's an Early Jersey Wakefield cabbage in a bucket, on day #66 from sowing the seed...

I remmeber your flooding patio and the French Drains.

>> I reset the pavers for a half-moon wall around a small rose bush.

Cool!

>> the pavers looked awful snaking up and down

My own approach has evolved into first putting up a sloppy wall, to see how it will look and plan the shallow "terraces". I might even grow in the sloppy walls for a year if I'm busy.

Then I go back and use a mattock to create the level foundation for the wall, a few pavers at a time. I dig that an inch or so deeper than I want it, then lay down 1" of small pebbles, drainage gravel or even sand. That makes it easier to raise one paver up by adding more gravel, or lower it by scraping the gravel away, or pounding on the paver.

I do pile the 'foundation' gravel higher and wider than it needs to be, before dropping the paver on it to flatten it out. If I flatten it too much, I lift the paver off and use the side of my shoe or spade to push the 'foundation' up an inch or so.

I don't know why that foundation seems fairly stable - at first I thought it would shift around, but seems not to. Probably pounding it down to the right height stabilizes it. But don't use all round pebbles! Coarse gravel is better.

It even lets me cut "steps" so that pavers can stand each straight upright and level, even while "staircasing" down a slope. Sometimes I run 2-3 pavers along a slope at the same level by digging the upper ones in deeper, and using bigger pebbles or rocks or a brick on its side under the lower ones.

Then I run a redwood board (6" - 9" wide) accross the bed where the pavers drop from that higher level to the next-lower level. The soil takes a step down where the wall does, so that the soil is level at all points, which helps watering.

Corey

>> my bed walls will do double-duty and serve as seating in my yard.

Will the paver be stordy enoguh, and tall enough to provide seating? I'm guessing that you're using some thick, stable pavers stacked like a brick wall, not thin cheap ones "propped up in place" as I do!

Here is my "sloppy style" with 8"x16" x 3/4" paver stood upright "the tall way".

(I don't have any photos of the neatly-stair-stepping wall.)

Corey


This message was edited Oct 12, 2011 4:06 PM

Here are some level ones where I have not yet used an angle cutter to cut some to the right width to fit exactly.

Linda, I recall you have some slope in your yardd, and wherever there's a slope, there CAN be drainage! Maybe the slope leads all drainage directly to your patio, but now that you have French Drains, you can probably avoid turning it into a wading pool.

Does the drain intercept runoff before it reaches your porch?
Does the raised beds' FEET stand higher than the drains?
Then you're home free.



This message was edited Oct 12, 2011 4:10 PM

Does the drain intercept runoff before it reaches your porch? YES!

Does the raised beds' FEET stand higher than the drains? YES!

Then you're home free!!!

Yippee!!

Aww, that takes the fun out of it!

My hope is that in my own yard, I'll get the same effect you're getting: one well-placed trench provides some drainage to everything above it. It should even gradually lower the water table uphill from it, and increase the potential depth of your root zone.

At most a short,shallow trench might be needed somewhere to prevent a wet spot after heavy rain.

I love it when a good design solves many problems!

I love it when a good thread POSTER asks enough questions up front to help solve many problems that might arise later!

Hugs! ^^_^^

Hugs back to you ... ^:-)^

(How did you get the angel-smiley?)

Corey

I could tell yah -- but then I'd have to prune you! (but, scroll down for the answer)...


















THE ANGEL SMILEY is made by this formula: TWO of the "carrots" over the number six on your keyboard, plus ONE underscore, plus TWO more "carrots" over the number six. NO spaces in-between.

If you want to make two ANGELS HOLDING HANDS smilies, repeat the above sequence TWICE, remembering to not put any spaces between anything.

So. carrotcarrotunderscorecarrotcarrot for ONE
And, carrotcarrotunderscorecarrotcarrotcarrotcarrotunderscorecarrotcarrot for TWO...

Linda and her Friend Corey ^^_^^^^_^^

This message was edited Oct 13, 2011 12:55 PM

Cool! Thanks!!

^^_^^^^_^^

Hmm, my "Preview" doesn't show angels ... kind of like someone with very heavy eyebrows ... but I'll try it.

Corey and his lame IE7 browser

....

NOW they show up! I guess it takes them a while to fly down from Heaven.


This message was edited Oct 13, 2011 11:31 AM

VERY cool! ^^_^^ ♥ ^^_^^

RickCorey_Wa, thanks for the great comments on drainage. I think I'm in pretty good shape. The yard is pretty level, with perhaps a tiny bit of slope, and the boxes would be about midway on that slope - so not sitting at the bottom of anything.

I've gotten one of the two (4x8') boxes filled so far. I hope I can get out of bed in the morning.

^^_^^

Just testing !!! LOL

There's gonna be angels all over. I can just feel it.

Okay, my new raised beds are filled to the brim --

5 parts pine bark fines
1 part topsoil (some had some manure and sand in it)
1 part compost
1 part MG Garden Soil (has peat in it, using it in place of straight peat)
1 part perlite and/or paver sand
I also threw in a few handfuls of rockdust and a little epsom salt, and then the recommended amount of Espoma fertilizer for veggies.

Now -- on to the planting! What would you plant at this point? (8b Texas on Oct 16th)?
I don't have any seedlings except for some chard (darn, I meant to start broccoli seedlings and forgot). I do have a lot of various kinds of seeds.
Lise