Miracle Grow Garden Soil - problem?

Of course not- I don't mind at all. ;o)

YPA

Al--

Today, at work, I had a call from a woman who wanted to know where she could get
"Rock Dust"---aka "Galcial Gravel"---aka "Basalt".....I am the phone operator at the HD I work in.
In my mind--I was like--AHA! That is what YOU are talking about!!!!

Trying to be helpful-we chatted a while till I could understand what she was looking for.
We do not carry it...She was expecting HD to be able to just "get it in" because she wanted it.
I told her it was not likely.....She seemed to be quite well informed....

A man from Garden had come in and he--hearing out conversation--started to google
"Rock Dust" on the other computer.
Well! Up came Darius d 'Ryies article from April of 2008 on "Rock Dust"....
It is very informative. I printed it out--and also e-mailed it to the woman who had just called.
I promised her I would seek info. on DG where that could be ordered from--or gotten.
She lives in the same area as I do--Baltimore. Now I owe it to her to seek some more information
on this. I need help!
WHERE would one get "Rock Dust"--or "Galcial Gravel"????? In our area.

Here is the link to Darius' http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/727/

Please educate me on these products.
Al--Is this not what you are "preaching" as the mineral component in a soil mix???

Help me out here.....I may need this myself when--and IF my raised bed ever gets made!
Darius mentions a "Gravel Pit" as a source. We have those here....Is that really good stuff???

Thanks, Gita

Gita,
Back up a few posts for Al's raised bed recipe! I'm already on the hunt for the Turface Pro League!

Hi, Gita - the material I was talking about (Turface Pro League) is comprised of baked clay granules, fired to such high temps the clay granules become extremely porous and fuse together - different than rock dust, which is simply finely pulverized rock powder, which is said to remineralize the soil w/o the need for fertilizer (other than N) because in its very fine size it is broken down into elemental forms by bacteria and fungi faster than the larger mineral particles in the soil.

Al

So? Al---

Is one better than the other?

I don't even know where to get "Turface".....What kind of a place carries that?
How about the Rock Dust--or the Glacier Gravel? I am trying to help this customer out.
Turning to the AMAZING DG that knows everything.....and I will be a "hero" if I can tell her...
She was an, almost, 80 year old lady. How can I not help her???

Would Contractor's Sand work OK? We have that at HD.....
Not sure of it's source, though....Really rough, small gravels sand---Sometimes used as a
base for laying pavers--or, maybe mixing into concrete....

We have Rock Quaries around here....also some concrete recycling places...they make "stuff" out
of builder's scrap.....Probably too Lime'ey.....I think many of ir is used in roadway construction...

Gita

Al, this is my source for Turface -- http://www.bes-tex.com/products.php?cat=-2&q=turface -- MVP is what I used for my gritty mix. Are you familiar with the Quick Dry? Would it be more like the "fines" from the MVP? TIA
Mary

Gita - they're just different products with some similarities in appearance - like sugar & salt, so it's difficult to compare them to each other. Turface is added as a structural element & is inert. Rock dust is purported to add elemental nutrients to the soil as it mineralizes, though it does have a minor impact on soil structure.

To be honest, if I was concerned about the health of my raised bed soil and wanted to ensure an adequate supply of all the essential elements plants need for normal growth, I would probably use a micro-nutrient preparation like Micromax or Microblast.

Mary - the quick-dry should work fine. You want it to be coarse enough that it doesn't clog soil pores but still fine enough that water won't run right through. The Turface MVP fines I add to my beds is about the same texture as builder's sand - maybe a little larger. It's a rather small fraction of the soil, and it's in a raised bed, so particle size isn't as critical as it would be for a container soil. Where you gain a benefit from these materials is from their internal porosity. They soak up and hold water in internal pores, yet still allow good drainage.

Al

T,
Brace yourself for a possible onslaught! I posted your raised bed recipe over in the High Yield Gardening in Raised Beds forum, and folks are starting to salivate!

You have been warned!

tee hee hee

YBPBFF

Al ..... I have a question about using horse manure. I have some that is broken down and dry. How would I use this to incorporate into the soil where I am building new flowerbeds?

I suppose it depends on how it got broken down & dry. If it dried out in the open and had some rain on it to leach the salts, you can probably just incorporate it or use it to top/side-dress. If it smells like ammonia when it is wet. I would reconsider incorporating & either allow it to compost further before incorporating or use it as a top-dressing/mulch.

Al

It is out in the open. Has been rain and snowed on. Has probably been there a year.

Just incorporate it or use it to top-dress.

Al

I am in the process of digging down four of my 4' x 8' raised beds. The material which I am removing is a combination of rock and 'rock dust' as I call it. I have been screening out the rock and saving this sandy appearing material which I have been using to raise the walk ways round the raised beds. Once this rock dust is rained upon it hardens into brick when dried. I saved the top soil mix used previously in these beds and was surprised to see a two inch layer on top of the cardboard placed in the bottom of these raised bed before adding the previous soil/composed manure growing media mix. Chipping through this two inch layer was worse than chipping through the rock and rock sand. I still have some of this rock dust or clay as you will in the removed rock and rock dust, and I was considering grating this material with other components mentioned here to produce the next generation of growing media. I am guessing here, but if this sand like material that sets up like clay should be micro-nutrient rich, and with proper mixing a portion of this material could or should be added back into the growing media mix. I have a good supply of vermicomposted cow/hay material and access to free wood chaps which I can double grind as well. Ground alfalfa hay or grass is another option for this mix. Builder’s sand should be available at the local sand and gravel. We mine a good deal of the vermiculite marketed here in Montana so that is readily available as well. With all that in mind I should be able to come up with a formula which can provide me with approximately 128 cubic feet of material I will need to refill these beds once the digging down process is completed.

I am also considering an initial layer of cardboard, several inches of wood chip with a soaker hose inserted in this layer. And thirdly a several inch layer of fresh horse manure with grated alfalfa hay mixed in. The final layer of the growing media should run about a foot deep, more or less.

mraider3, WOW, your long informative post was interesting to me. Your idea of burying a soaker hose was great - I never had though of that to keep the compost moist. (they call that functional fixation I think)

I had always wondered how vermiculite was made - I remember (I think) it being called "puffed mica" as in Quaker Puff wheat sparkies, I guess. I think that implied heating slabs of mica in a low pressure chamber. We have lots of mica throughout the SE; I even pass a road called Mica Mine Rd on the way home (but have never gone down it as it is residential now.) I have used vermiculite since about 1953 to root plants in and still use it.

Thanks again for the info.

Paul

This is still work in progress Paul. The growing mix is still in doubt as to a formula. I have posted again on this subject in the intensive gardening in raised beds. I am leaning more to available materials without purchasing any additives. I do have a fair supply of vermiculite which I had considered using in the mix but had not made that call as yet. The builder’s sand is also in question, especially if I use any of the sifted clay material from digging down in the raised beds, or recycled material from last season’s raised beds. Although this clay material looks a lot like sand, last season it drifted down in the beds forming a hard clay layer on the bottom of the beds.

I have watched with interest the growing media mixes which have been posted in the latest postings on intensive gardening but they all seem to be mostly inorganic and around twenty percent compost material. My practice in the past has been to go much higher on the organics based on my soils experience in the garden. I may be wrong here in my conclusion but I will definitely go with the twice ground wood chips and alfalfa hay or grass as an additive, and use at least fifty percent well aged cow manure with some straw mixed in. I think there is sufficient inorganic material already in the garden soil or recycled bed mix from last season so I doubt that builder’s sand or vermiculite would improve the situation. The grated material coming from digging down the raised beds works nicely on the walk ways around the beds, however this rock dust, so to speak, probably contains large amounts of micro nutrients, so some may be added to the mix as well. I rely on texture as a guide to mixing these components rather than a formula which is probably sheer guess work on my part but it will have to do for now.

What kind of "shrinkage" do you experience in your mostly organic raised beds?

Gymgirl, I thought I answered that question in another posting, but it’s approximately fifty percent. With the changes I am making this season I don't really know what to expect. I am curious as to what your thoughts are concerning shrinkage Linda. Since you asked the question I have been trying to decide how much of the various medias to add to each two foot deep bed. Although I plan to use both bottom and surface watering in these beds I would like to fill the beds to within several inches of the tops which will be covered with old window panes at least at night for a month or so. I expect shrinkage will occur more quickly at the beginning of the process but here again I can't be entirely sure of that.

Mraider3,
I asked about shrinkage based on Al's discussion of building a soil foundation out of a higher percentage of mineral content from the beginning. This non-organic mineral content would provide a basic structure to the soil and should not collapse/compress as fast as a structure built predominately of a higher organic content that is in a constant state of breakdown. Per Al (and I hope I get this right!) the higher mineral content won't break down as fast - generally a 2 year span before having to add anything major to build it back up. And, you would still add the organic components (your compost, alfalfa hay?, etc.), just as a lower fraction of the total.

Al put together the recipe below for me. It starts with at least 5 parts of the double grind pine bark fines as the basic structure. I'll still add the other parts for drainage and moisture retention, and I'll definitely add some organic components. But, the chunky pine bark fines will comprise the basic building block and the larger portion of the soil makeup.

Gymgirl,

Thank you for posting the above. I will print it out for whenever I get someone to build my bed....
What is MVP?

Your picture above---Is that what you call PineBark fines? Looks more like coarse
Pine Bark Mulch. Yes? No?
I was under the impression that "fines" are the really small bits (fine?) of ground pine bark bits.
I have seen it in some garden centers....sold in bags, like regular mulch. The bits are, maybe,
12" big--overall....A nice potting mix additive....

Builders sand is sold at the HD . In bags....Not sure what it is made from--someone in
garden said it is ground up Granite....I am sure there is a lot of waste when making
Granite Counter tops...maybe that is where it comes from?
Would Granite provide all the micro nutrients Al wrote about?

Thanks--Sorry I am so "dense"....maybe my brain is 2 parts builders sand.....teee...heee....

Gita

Hey, Gita,
Right now, I am sifting my double grind pine bark fines through 1/2" hardware cloth. I am using from dust size to no more than nickel size bark to mix Al's 5:1:1 container mix for my eBuckets and self-watering containers with built-in reservoirs.

What I posted is the larger pine bark pieces that I have sifted out. I posted that picture to show Mraider3 that these larger pieces can either be reground (so I can resift and use the sizes I need for my container mix) or thrown into the raised bed as a structural base for Al's raised bed mix recipe!

Here's the pine bark fines I keep for my container mix after sifting. That's a dime and a nickel. The fines go from dust to right at or just barely above that nickel size. It reminds you of the MG potting mix, only without the spongy-"ness". I love working with it because it is almost as clean as Bocabob's coir!

Hope this clarifies the picture!

Linda

Thanks, Linda--It does clarify it a bit......
Still seems a lot more work than I am willing to do. For one--I do not have a sifting
mechanism of any kind,,,,,Nor a grinder-----

I am afraid, IF i go this route--I will have to pay dearly for the finished product in some way.
Good to have the information, of course.....

Not even there yet! My future raised bed sits bare--still....

One thing I have a lot of is composted, shredded leaves in black, plastic trash bags....
Maybe 10-12 of them. Two year-old bags--it is already awesome humus....
One year-old ones--half way there.....still good organic material.

Any more info o the "Builders sand"?????

Gita

How do you grind it?

I have a friend with a wood chipper. We'll just run it thru a couple tImes.

Compression and drainage seem to be the operative words here as I read your recipe. I have sufficient fines now to work into the mix so hopefully the compression will not affect drainage or plant root production which I believe were my problems in the past with the amount of clay in the soil. I refilled half of the horse manure compost bin the other day with about 20 to 25 percent wood chip fines and the texture looked really good. This looks like it will work for the recycled soil which I am working back into the beds as well. Great Idea!

morgan

MR - unless the wood chips are WELL-composted, you should expect a considerable amount of N immobilization, from the wood chips alone, not to mention other organic components, which you're going to have to make up for by using high-N fertilizers. I just see problems on the horizon with the mix of woodchips/hay/grass as such a significant fraction of the soil.

Al

I'm listening Al. I haven't made any soil mixes as yet so there's time to make adjustments. I do not clearly understand the nitrogen mobilization process you are referring to here Al. Could you be more specific or give me some references I can review on this subject.
I am not concerned about composting with these wood chips as you suggest since this seems to be a fairly common practice among composters, however I do not typically use fertilizers and would prefer not to.

morgan

mr--the Carbon to Nitrogen ratio is extremely important. Start here:
http://www.composting101.com/c-n-ratio.html

VORTREKER, great chart, will add that to my composting file. Where I am having my problems is with the soil mixing for the raised beds. I wasn't aware of adding wood chip fines would deplete the nitrogen available to the plants. I am still working on getting my head around this problem. I know many of the organic gardeners seem to shun the idea of using commercial fertilizers in their gardens and to some extent I would agree with this philosophy. I have used MG for jump starting some crops due to the shortness of our growing season here but did not plan on a steady diet of fertilizer additions to the raise beds, if any at all. The goal was simply to build the growing media out of what is readily available. Adding builder’s sand from a nearby sand and gravel is a relatively inexpensive way to increase the inorganic ratio, but for some reason this just didn't seem right to me. I need to work on that one.

mr--I must not understand what your asking.
The C:N ratio is one of your most important considerations whether the soil is in the ground or in a raised bed. Uncomposted "wood chip fines" or sawdust, or any wood, will "steal" nitrogen from the soil until it's 250-500 Carbon to 1 Nitrogen ratio comes closer to 10:1 during that time it will be robbing the plants in the soil of nitrogen.
Re-read Tapla's post

Bottom line is fresh wood in the ground, in a compost pile or in a raised bed will compost. (Rot)

understood

Bark, doesnt do the same thing???

Another night owl heard from. I'm not sure I understand what the difference is between bark and wood chip fines when it comes to nitrogen up take and I'm not necessarily agreeing with the principles here as they apply to what I am attempting to do. The comments here all make sense to me, however I am even more convinced to go ahead and try my experiment using a high volume of organics in my growing media including the wood chip fines. I don't base my decision on anything scientific or anything I have read it is simply my way of looking at things.

I could probably explain myself in terms of the Native American's: I see myself as the miniscule catfish which swims upstream in a warm current. I fairly often go against the flow in my terms of thinking and what I am considering probably makes no sense to anyone here, but I see the aged manure in terms of various forms of nitrogen which includes some ammonia and a greater amount of organic nitrogen. The addition of wood chip fines consuming nitrogen I agree with, but wouldn't these fine be more likely to consume the more readily available ammonia nitrogen which is probably in excess of what the plants would require anyway. And if the plants were not consuming sufficient nitrogen from the organic fraction of the manure wouldn't they show signs of nitrogen deficiently? In which case, the addition of a nitrogen fertilizer could be applied. I'm pretty sure I am going against the flow here but I want to give this a try.

Go for it mr.
A local nursery here grew celery from seed. Because she didn't know that "it couldn't be done"
:)

And, I grew a cabbage, from a seedling to maturity, for nine months because I didn't know that "it couldn't be done!" ^^_^^

A neighbor had a tree removed and the people told her that the sawdust would be good for her landscape. She knows I garden so asked me if I would like some sawdust too. I told her the sawdust would be good to use in two to three years once it had broken down, but in the meantime I had nowhere to store it.

I think it is best to avoid fresh sawdust unless you are prepared to wait for it to "age".

I bet I know the answer to my own question. I bet that bark breaks down so slowly that it's effect on the N is negligible. If you think about it, bark is sort of a more "stable" or stagnant wood whereas sawdust comes from live growing wood. I bet their decomp chemistry is way different.Does anyone on here know? Tapla, where are you?

The decomp would depend on the material itself and on the size. You know how smaller stuff breaks down faster in compost than larger pieces. Sawdust is many very small bits of wood. Bark is 'wood' that was grown to be more resistant to moisture and damage than the inner wood.

Thanks, Sally. So I had a glimmer of the answer. chuckle.

MR3 - Conifer bark is very rich in a lipid called suberin, which acts as a waterproofing for plants and makes it VERY difficult for soil micro-organisms to cleave the hydrocarbon chains that make up the bark. Because the bark breaks down so slowly, it doesn't cause the temporary N immobilization that many other amendments do (grass; straw; sawdust; wood chips containing sapwood, heartwood, hardwood bark; other ingredients that break down quickly. Your plants also may not appreciate the extra heat the ingredients you plan on using are sure to generate ...... but I'm not trying to change your mind. Your call - just sort of responding to Steadycam's hail and affirming his/her? thinking.

Al