Saw this in the wall street journal today

Article in the Wall Street Journal today.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704448304575195960955885080.html

I hope we all get such pretty tomatoes!
Except for needing more sun, things are going really well with mine.
Just getting to bug season tho. Dont want to talk to soon.


This message was edited Apr 22, 2010 8:01 AM

Thanks for posting this link.

What's especially interesting in this article is seeing which specialty catalogues are affiliated which larger catalogue businesses. I had no idea that Cook's Catalogue was a division of Burpee, for instance!

I'm glad that they ended with that information from Amy Goldman, listing heirloom varieties that are just as good, if not better, than hybrids.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704448304575195960955885080.html#project%3DSLIDESHOW08%26s%3DSB10001424052748704448304575196213895625230%26articleTabs%3Dslideshow

Just noticed the slide show...YUM

Thanks....now I'm thinking of what other varieties I can add. Like I need anymore :)

A new wrinkle on fake antiques. I never grew an heirloom before 2008 and hadn't even given a thought to the distinction. Now there's no going back. Love my antique maters.

When I read the article yesterday, I was more surprised at the ignorance reflected in some of the comments than anything else.

There are just some things in life that there are no good substitutes for and maybe homegrown tomatoes are one of them. When they start talking about breeding for firmness to facilitate mechanical harvesting and shipping while still maintaining good flavor...They might as well howl at the moon. It just isn't going to happen.

The grocery chains need to beef up their purchasing staff and find local sources for all seasonal produce. It would help local economies, help food safety and raise overall quality. The government keeps yammering about obesity and that we need to eat more vegetables. Maybe folks would eat more if the quality of the offerings improved.

One question. Doesn't growing hybrids miss two important reasons to grow heirlooms, to preserve genetic heritage and keep propagation in the hands of small farners and backyard gardeners? That's the reason I started to grow OP/heirloom vegetables. Taste was secondary.

Russ, what do you mean by comments? The ones on DG or attached to the article?

Diane, I refer to the ones attached to the article.

This message was edited Apr 22, 2010 10:13 PM

I agree, I had a hard time reading the comments without getting a little riled up myself. Hybrid heirloom, isn't that kind of an oxymoron?

Well, the in article quotes were from large seed companies trying to sell a new product. Obviously, their opinions are a little squewed. I kept asking myself, what about commercial herilooms? They were bred to be disease resistant and productive. Isn't that is were the hybrids get their genetics?

The comment about nematodes was not what i've experienced. I have problems with them too and grow mainly OP tomatoes. Even the large family heirlooms seem to be no worse for wear with an infestation. They still kept on producing and were healthy. I didn't know I had a problem until they were dug up that fall. Even then, only about a quarter of the plants had knots on them.

But to be fair, it is hard to put together an article when everyone is saying different things. There is deadlines to meet and only so far you can delve into the subject. I just would have liked a little more information presented on all the different types of heirlooms.

I think so, but it is unarguably a catchy marketing term that will appeal to those who also buy jumbo shrimp.

It seems to me that intrinsic to the term heirloom and to the concept of heirloom plants is that they can be reproduced unchanged generation after generation.

As Carolyn wrote in her book (p. 4): "From a reproductive standpoint, all heirloom varieties are open-pollinated, which means that saved seed sown the next year will give you the same variety unless natural cross-pollination or spontaneous mutation occurs [italics added]. Seed saved from hybrid tomatoes does not give rise to identical plants in the next generation."

Amy Goldman, in her book (p. 2), and Gary Ibsen, in his (p. 8), say essentially the same thing. Goldman further writes what we all know and understand: " . . . tomato land in America is dominated by commercial F1 hybrids . . .   Hybrids reduce biodiversity and prevent farmers and gardeners from saving harvested seed to regrow."

In the grand flow of history, the hybrid tomato apparently isn't much older than some of us--I read that the first hybrid tomato to be introduced for widespread sale was the "Burpee Hybrid" in 1945, and "Big Boy" came along around the year I was born (1950).

This made me scratch my head while cruising a nursery.

"Abe Lincoln Hybrid Heirloom"

These hybrid heirlooms may all that will be offered in nurseries in the next few years. I've noticed that the last two years that they have been offereing less and less heirlooms or even commercial OPs in favor of these newer types. Only Brandywine, Bradley and the occasional ML is all I see offered around here, though these varieties don't really like our climate. If only people knew all the heirlooms/OPs available. Several are very well suited to our area and have excellent taste.

For a while, I was so excited that people were growing things like Abe Lincoln, Great White, Nebraska Wedding and Traveler. OSH, Home Depot and eve Target use to carry lines of heirlooms. (Unlike us, most people don't want to search out varieties or start their own.) This always opened up a conversation to other varieties they can try to grow. Suppose, I will have to dust off all the seed starting stuff to grow more transplants for my friends, family and neighbors.

They're everywhere!

http://www.rhshumway.com/dp.asp?c=109&P={7BD5EE4F-2180-44D9-BEA0-5482DF37E932}

http://www.growquest.com/tomato%20abe_lincoln.htm

http://www.totallytomato.com/dp.asp?c=42&P={13EE6E11-2C97-42B0-A049-5D9FA5025D81}

I wonder what it will take to discourage the industry at large from using heirloom and hybrid in the same name? It seems to me an intentionally misleading practice to capitalize on the increasing interest in growing heirlooms.

This message was edited Apr 23, 2010 4:16 PM

Its totally misleading. I wonder what kind of tomato is really in those pots. I cant believe someone who grows heirlooms would buy something with hybrid on the pot. Do you think it could actually be someone designing the tags who actually knows no better. Shoot, if that was the case, and it wasnt intentional, they would have pulled them by now.

I agree, Russ.

My first thought was that the two terms scrunched together are an obvious contradiction. The next was that it's deceptive because the consumer isn't getting what they think they're buying.

But you bring up seed saving, and that's another area of confusion for the beginner-gardening consumer. If they were to ask someone if they could save seed from, say, Abe Lincoln heirloom, the answer would be yes. They probably wouldn't think to add the word hybrid in their question.

I do think the writer did a good job of presenting the topic fairly. It looks like her original inclination was to write about how great these hybrids are, but after doing some research she decided to take it another way. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1087974/

Its seems like an attempt by commercial seed companies to cash in a grassroots trend while taking back control of the industry. They are obviously purposely misleading consumers. This is somewhat like MG organic line that isn't all organic. Some of their products add MG other don't. You can't tell by the label and have to read the fine print. Even then, most people really don't know what constitutes organic. Most people don't know the difference between hybrids, heirlooms and OP, either.

Here's the company that the "Abe Lincoln Hybrid Heirloom" were from. http://www.greenarrownurseries.com/gallery/album300 Although I don't see the ones in question on their website.

People were definitely buying a lot of them. I passed by perplexed by the contradiction.

Read the description at http://www.greenarrownurseries.com/gallery/album300/Abe_Lincoln
and compare to the links I posted above.
 

Ahh! Interesting. I must have missed it. I was just looking for the title that had "Hybrid Heirloom" in it, like the one I posted earlier.



This message was edited Apr 23, 2010 9:57 PM

Well, at least they're not calling it an heirloom, but they are also not being very clear about its being a hybrid. It should say F1.

Those links are not calling it an heirloom at all, in fact, they are stating that it's a hybrid crossbred from an heirloom, which is basically the case with most hybrids, no? They have to start with something. Looks like whoever "created" the "hybrid heirloom" just took that description and cut out a few key words. Sheesh. The saddest part of all this is when inexperienced people buy the seed in question, grow it out, save the seeds, grow them out, etc., and next thing you know, you've got a mutant going around as an Abe Lincoln. ("Gee, I used to grow Abe Lincoln's and they were terrible. Some were pasters and some were large cherries, and some were...") The seed purity is gone and the name of the tomato is maligned. Drives me crazy. Part of the reason I no longer trade for saved seeds. The number of times I've gotten incorrect seeds, even from experienced gardeners made me realize that we were actually doing a disservice to the purity of the heirloom.

Oops - totally off the topic...and I'd better jump off the soap box before I fall off!

I know it's hard for someone to totally research a topic, but I say, better no info than wrong info. If I go to a nursery with incorrect info, I do not go back. In fact, my most local nursery has a bunch of very good heirlooms - since I traded her seeds a few years back for some straw bales,and she has been diligently growing, saving, and seedling selling ever since. (And I've spot-check, and her plants seem to always come true - whew! Someone who really cares!)

This message was edited Apr 24, 2010 10:42 AM

Abe Lincoln needs improvement?

Can I ask a question about breeding? I feel like I understand the basic differences in hybrid vs. open pollinated . . . you cross two open pollinated plants and the resulting seeds and plants are considered hybrids. And the seeds from hybrids are unreliable, so no one does breeding work with them? Or do they? Can you end up with a good open pollinated tomato - a new cultivar - that at some point came from a hybrid? I guess that happens by accident, but do they do it on purpose?

I'm kind of just thinking out loud here. My main question is this: How do you get open pollinated seed that is an improvement on an open pollinated cultivar? Take this, for example: San Marzano Gigante 3 (OP). http://www.territorialseed.com/product/11180/s It can't be a cross between San Marzano and another tomato because then it would be a hybrid. Or can it? Is there some way to breed a hybrid back into open pollination? (Sorry if that sounds stupid. I'm still trying to wrap my head around some of this stuff.) Or is San Marzano Gigante 3 the result of producers simply choosing seed from their biggest San Marzanos every year and eventually, over many years, they end up with this? If not, how did this improved tomato come about?

There are some great threads on Dg discussing this. I know you can create hybrids, then breed them for the qualities you want in them, but I sure don't know the details. If you start a separate thread with this question, you will get more people to read it and provide you with the appropriate answers.

Is the heirloom actually called Abraham Lincoln (and naturally, most people call it Abe), but the hybrid is called Abe Lincoln? I just don't see how they could name the hybrid the same as one of the parents and feel like it's ok to do that. But if they're varying the name slightly, they feel ok with that because technically they aren't lying (but we all know it's deceptive).

Thanks, Sequee. I should probably look around, or even get a book on it because the answer is probably takes quite a bit of typing. I'm going to order Seed to Seed so that I can start learning about seed saving. But breeding is much too advanced for me at this point. It's interesting, though.

Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, and that's always possible(!), the male parent was actually called Buckbee's Abraham Lincoln.

Good question about the Abraham vs the Abe, though.

You can dehybridize tomatoes or any other plant. The result is not exactly the same as the hybrid, but pretty close. There are several commercial heirlooms and newer OPs that started out this way. I'm not sure of the genetics. I think some of the secondary traits of the original parent plants start to show up in later years. These are incorporated into the new OP variety.

What about the research on the higher nutritional value of heirlooms? Does anyone have more info on this? I did read how small cattle ranchers are turning to OP varieties of corn because of their higher amount of protein and micronutrients. Supposedly, cattle prefer to eat OP corn over hybrid corn.

I know my pets loved my heirloom tomatoes last year. Sigh!!! They are eagerly awaiting this years crop. I can see them watching the plants from the other side of the fence LOL.

divided sky - check out a threads by Ozark. He is doing an experiment this year where he crossed German Red Strawberry with Dr. Wyche's Yellow, and he has some explanations that are very basic and easy to understand. (I have some of his crossed seeds that I am growing out in hopes of being one of the first to taste the new kid!) Very exciting - even though most of it is over my head!

LOL, dbl...you are raising pets! Only the best, Ma. My silly little Pom likes to pull off the tiny cherry tomatoes, but he doesn't like them - just plucks them off then turns them into missiles that he can project half way across the room! Double-sigh!

There are two different strains of Abe Lincoln tomatoes. One introduced in the 1920's by Buckbee and one later introduced by Shumway in the 70's. Shumway had purchased some of the seed of the original variety. Victory Seeds offers Shumway and Tomatofest offers Buckbee. The Buckbee variety is also referred to Abe Lincoln Original.

Mortgage Lifter and Brandywine have similiar stories and debates over which is the original.

Sequee, best laid plans of mice and men. No matter the care, one determined dog, rabbit, duck or whatever, can decimate a garden in a single afternoon. We use to have a dog that would watch tomato, cucumbers and melons as they grew. Right before they were ripe, she would rip out most of the plant and drag it around the yard.

I see, dlbailey. Well, that sets me on the right track as I do further reading.

I don't know if there's research on heirloom nutritional value, but there is research showing that crops grown organically can have better nutritional value. Here's a quick link: http://www.ota.com/organic/benefits/nutrition.html (Gotta run soon. Earth Day celebration is today, and they might have plants there!! Can't miss that!)

Heirlooms are often grown under organic or near organic conditions. And if you have good stuff in the soil, well, you reap what you sow. Plus, food grown on a smaller scale is less likely to be shipped long distances, so that's a factor. Of course, there are these hybrids with extra lyopene or whatever, so of course that's what everyone's going to focus on. But if the heirlooms already have the good stuff in them, no need to do all the work of hybridizing, eh?

I think some people do it just because they can! I know that I love a good experiment, and each and every year I try something special. It's fun and interesting, and i enjoy the challenge. Bottom line, though - I love a good homegrown, be it heirloom, OP, or hybrid. I defy anyone to eat a Brandy Boy and poo-poo it because it's a hybrid. It's still (and probably always will be) a big favorite of mine!

I recetly rescued a new dog and the little sh** is hell bent on digging his way to China! Trust me when I tell you, he is not allowed with 10 feet of the vegie gardens!

Sequee it isn't the hybrid part that is getting everyone in a tissy. Its the hybrid masquerading as an heirloom part that rubs some of us the wrong way. If its a hybrid, fine. Just be truthful about what it is and isn't.

What I want to know is how hybrid seed is repeatedly produced with stable results on a broad scale for distribution.

My understanding is that development of new OP varieties involves growing out multiple generations and selecting for the desired consistent attributes until all seeds produce uniform results.

When developing commercial hybrids, it would seem that growing out several generations would be redundant but if just crossing two parents produces a range of gene combinations, how do they get stable results. Is it a case of having 2 parents in which the gene diversity has been so reduced that the cross necessarily produces stable results?

I hope Carolyn will chime in on this thread to help us be precise with the terminology.

Lacking that, Carol Deppe, in her book Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties: The Gardener's and Farmer's Guide to Plant Breeding and Seed Saving, writes (p. 121):

"When I refer to a hybrid, I mean an F1 [first filial generation] of a cross between two different pure breeding varieties. This is the classic genetic meaning. In the seed industry the word is often used considerably more loosely. Sometimes F2 material or even subsequent generations are referred to as hybrids. Sometimes even pure breeding open-pollinated varieties that were derived originally from a cross between two varieties are called hybrids. This latter use is incorrect or deceptive."

This message was edited Apr 24, 2010 4:13 PM