Propagation: part XIV based on my own experience

Hello to everyone and welcome to those new to our little chat. Plese feel free ask anything, as we try to keep it simple and fee lwe should always pass along our own knowledge. Lurkers are also welcome. Please check in if possible I would hate to loose someone in one of these switches

We came from here: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1078837/

As with all of the threads I stat I like to welcome anyone new to our little corner of Daves Garden. Please take the time to read all the past threads. Most of them have some great information in them. There are no dumb questions except for the 1 thats never asked.
Pictured is called Black Eyed Bully

I was posting at the same time you posted....

here is my post from the other one

Oh my gosh I'm not kidding I used hot hot water and I let it sit for 15 minutes came back nothing then added more water and let it sit another 15 minutes and still hardly anything had soaked in.

I'm just not going to be using that stuff... so it is the peat moss that doesn't soak up water...???? scratching head... just what exactly is that stuff,,, I know I should know but I can't for the life of me remember...

Janet

Janet,

I understand your frustration with this product, and I completely agree with you, however, since you have it, you might as well use it as it costed you some hard-earned money, so don't be ready to toss it quite yet. Add some more hot water to it and let it sit awhile, as eventually it will soak up. And yes, it is the peat moss. It is a natural product which grows in bogs, mainly in the UK, I believe specifically in Ireland. I am sure that you could Google it, if you want more information on it. I, personally have used the MG potting soil and the MG seed-starting mix, and neither one was really suited for fine seeds, in my humble opinion, as it is not fine-texured enough. The Jiffy Mix was better, but it also had the problem of improper wetting, and I did follow that same method, and still found that it did not wet properly on its own, without adding vermiculite. If you can get a small bag of that, you could add some bit by bit until it is the texture that you are wanting. It was however, good with the vermiculite, for larger seeds.

I hope that this clarifies it for you.

Ok it looks like you hit a good subject. I recomend everyone read this article. evidently there is a living fungus with in it that if proper precautions are not used then you run some serious health risks. we need to be carefull when handeling spagnum moss. it puts out a fine dust and from my own experience is not something I recomend breathing. the dust can be dangerous, and from what I am reading so can the lettle critters that tag along for the ride.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/965/

This brings up an eco frindly debate. peat moss or coco coir, from what I know the peat moss we use in soils is the dead material in the peat bogs. they are in the swampy area's of US and canada and I amwilling to bet if we searched there are other countries that have peat bogs. Of course being something that is harvested from the earth there are limits to how much can be removed from the bogs before we start to have a negative effect on the ecology of the peat bogs themselves.
Coir - someone who knows more about coir please chime in. I don't know enough about it to correctly talk about the product. I do know it make a nice liner for hanging basket and is easier to work with than the long spagnum moss we are used to using on hanging baskets. by switching to coir we can have a posative result in giving the peat bogs a longer life and slowing down the harvesting due to a lower demand.
I would think the companies that own the bogs would know the in's and out's of their bogs. how they grow and what makes the produce the spagnum moss that we use in so many gardening soils today. I don't know that we will ever get away from peat moss as a vital part in garden soils.
From my own experience we would order semi loads of mixed soil, at a 100yards each delivery and quite a few deliveries per year its a lot of soil. the soil companies would mix a soil to your specifications using so much peat, sand etc. I am curious as to exactly how much peat moss do we as a country consume?
well there it is the thought to ponder. is the lesser costing long spagnum really worth the cost ?

With as much trouble as Janet is having I tend to be learie of the bag itself. Personally I would either mix it with something else and use it up in another way rather than to trust it on precious seeds. Just My opinion.
I did google peat moss and it seems the bog owners are replanting and regrowing the bogs which makes me wonder just how big a deal it really is or is it just propaganda sold to us by the coir manufacturers and sellers?
decide for yourself here is the info the canadian spagnum moss growers are giving us. ok enough rant
http://www.peatmoss.com/index.php
Dave

Dave

never a rant.... good information.

What I ended up doing was throwing in some left over coil and finally after working and working it I got it to take the water.... I looked back and the bag was a freebie so no money, and for sure I won't be laying out any money for it.

Since all of my health issues and dealing with asthma on top, I now have resigned myself to wearing a mask when doing anything in the garden or planting seeds. I'm not the best looking thing but at least I get to keep gardening......

Ok if the weather man is correct and we do actually get temps in the 70s then I'm attempting to put up my little hoop greenhouse.

I've decided to not put it in the back yard, but right on the back patio, I have water and electric access so for now that's were its going...LOL

I've got a blog and will be posting the ins and outs of my first time trying to put that together....LOL I'm excited, as onces its up then I'm moving the current seedlings out there and out of the house....

for those that might want to look... http://1meadowyck.blogspot.com/

here is what I ended up with on the plantings from the MG last night...

Janet

Good morning...afternoon ...whatever...lol
Looks liek a good set of seedlings ... I am guessing tomatoes? It sounds like you have a way to beat mother nature with the mini hoop house.
Have a great day
Dave

Dave

I'm trying.... but sometimes the weather gets the best of me...

well if our weather holds true to what they say, temps in 70's then I'll be outside transplanting after I get the hoophouse up.

We have sunshine which is a wonderful thing here.

Janet

Motivation:
What gets you moving? What drives you? These are questions I seem to be having issue with this week. Its a beautiful week and I still am having trouble making myself get out of the house. I have one small area to clean up in the nursery and then everyone will be ready to go for the summer.
One thing that does help me is a list of gotta do today, tomorrow and this week. I am at a loss for direction. with the excepthin of a few things I don't see anything that needs doing. Geeze I almost forgot Host'a will be here anytime within the next week That will keep me moving for a bit. with the exception of forsythia and a few new additions to the nursery I don't have the stock to cutt for propagation and that will be done today.
any advice?

dave

kick yourself in the behind..... that might help...rofl

sorry dave, you asked for it...

Janet

Hi, everyone...how is your weather today? We have snow....AGAIN! At least the seedlings on the porch did not freeze...

Yesterday it was windy and rainy from the night before, and then all day...early this morning it started snowing, and just recently stopped.

Howdy:
I tried that once but fell and sprained my toe. luckily I was not useing it at the time so it did not even get noticed as I am always moving funny....
Janet: I looked for the pics of the mini hoopster and I guess I was not holding my mouth correctly or I need to know the secret wink...
Sorry for the snow. Keep the faith it will melt and spring will happen.
I did manage to get myself going. I figuired out that I am in a holding pattern with little left to do in the nursery. Just 2 flats of cuttings to take and then its a wait and see. I guess its just sit back an enjoy the nice warm breeze. I am not trying to rub it in I promise. I know how bad it is when you know gardening time is just around the corner. pic is last years ginger bloom
Dave

Put some great music on the i pod and you will get in the groove. My music of choice for that is Spanish Guitar. I will be inside today be cause my Asthma is getting better and have wind advisory and high dust and pollen level. I started this post this early am and then Grandson Baby Luke showed up to spend the day with Grandma. Now I am settling down to ready the paper and watch the evening news. Have a great evening.

Dave the coir is coconut husks. I don't think coconuts grow anywhere near swamps. They are a palm tree aren't they? I know they grow some coconut palms in So. Cal. so would be surprised at swamps. But, I think I have seen them grown in the tropics in movies. Now is that for real, or just in the movies? Islands. You know how people are stranded on islands so they eat coconuts? But, those don't appear to be swampy either.

I guess we could associate tropics with swamp like atmosphere?? I know google knows everything. However, I'm not the one with the problem. yet. LOL

Hi: I guess my last posts were a bit confusing.
peat comes from swam bogs of spagnum moss. Yes the coir is from palms and I am sure there are farms of cocnuts that grow specifically for the coir. I would think as its a by product of the harvest the folks that make the refined coconut flakes and milk sell off their waste to the coir industry. I don't know why but when I think of coconuts I think of the pink hostess snow balls. of course there aer Mounds and almond joy candy bars.
I guess my main thing was to discuss the 2 different options and seeing that I am not all that informed on coir I should ask someone more informed to talk about it.
I did see a short 4 part vidio on how the bog owners are able to seed and reestablish their bogs. It was kind of kool. they just spread shreaded peat spores and cover with a light layer of hay or straw. In my mind that takes the exhaustablity of the sources of peat into a sustainable product for many years. Aslong as the growers plant new bogs while others are harvested. Anyone with any thoughts on the coir - peat discussion???
Dave

I bought coir last year for the first time, and I love it. I used straight coir in my hanging baskets and my stacker planters. This spring, it is still nice and fluffy in the pots. The coir contains no nutrients, so you do have to fertilize regularly (which I didn't do, bad me)

I am trying something different this year. I started all of my seeds in a mixture of coir, a scoopful of perlite, Professional Potting Mix (glorified name), and Tagro (which is a mixture of sand and waste products www.cityoftacoma.org. I am having great germination. I just planted strawberries in the same mix in the stacking planters.

I like the idea of using coir, and the fact it is a use of by-products of coconut trees...still I know little about the harvest process and if they use the whole trees or just by-products of otherwise waste products. If that is the case, coir would be preferable...especially if it wets better than peat. If they have to grow the peat, and if the coir is by-product, that would tell me right there that use of by-product would be preferable in my mind. Any use of otherwise waste products is good as it keeps them out of landfills and reuseable apparently unending reuse.

evelyn

coil takes and holds water WONDERFUL. I used it exclusively in my winter seed sowing project. I love the stuff and an interesting thing about it, since I've had sinus problems, I have to wear a mask when working with the soil, well I tried working with the coil to see if I would have any problems and amazingly I experienced none. But I'm not taking any chances so the rest of the time I wore a mask. It was just nice to know that there is something I can work with that isn't going to get my sinuses all messed up.

By the way my ws seeds are sprouting just fine in the coil. and some of my jugs I even mixed worm casting and coil together to see how those would compare to the jugs that were just coil. Right now I'm not really seeing any difference...

Janet

I believe coir is a byproduce but both products are a sustainable product that comes from a harvest. I am sure the coir requirments out pace the coconut milk and flakes consumption. as I see it its a toss up so for me its a $$$ and ease of use. I personally like my prebagged and mixed product.
I do know if I had to mix everything I would most likely switch to coir.
Dave

Thanks for the info Janet.

I am curious...do you re-use it, or do you put in in the compost pile after you are through with it?

Evelyn

I think the coir is new enough that it is still more expensive. But, there are 2 sizes of coir. There is the dust (almost) and then there are the chips, which is a larger grind or whatever they do. You know, I have heard of mulch of coconut hulls. I don't know where they use them probably in the south? I have never seen any up here.in the north. I think I saw them advertised in bags. But they were pretty expensive if I remember correctly.

My daughter uses them only. The larger chips. I mean instead of peat. I don't think she mixes it with anything except the slow release fertilizer. She shopped around on line and was buying from a seller on ebay for quite a while. But then found someone near her that carried it for near the price she was paying. Much better with no shipping.

Evelyn, guess we cross posted.

Read Lynn Weidman's post above. About 5 posts up.

evelyn

This is my first season using it, so I'm think once the seeds are transplanted I'm going to mix it in with my potting mix for my large planters.

I'm getting two bars of compacted coil which once water hits it, it expands like a volcano.... and I mean expand....LOL Cost was 2.34 here and I could fill the bottom of 16 milk jugs for that cost.

I also like that it doesn't dry out as fast the the potting mix, but it doesn't stay soggy wet, just a nice moisture wet... if that description makes any sense.

When I get home I'll take a picture and post of what I'm using.

Janet

Janette:
I am jellous of the bark chips or dust you have up in the timber area. I found out about it on a trip to my Father-in-laws. Its the by product of the lumber mills gringing all the bark off the trees they process. Do you use it on your beds or have you even seen it in your area? I thought it was neat.
I also spotted it on a reality show where they got it brought to them with a big blower machine that just spread it exactly where it was pointed to. quick and efficent.
Dave

I'm sure there are such things Dave. No, I don't care for the bark mulch. For one thing the wood products, those, just like sawdust, take the nitrogen out of the soil. You need to add high nitrogen fertilizer and then hope you aren't over- doing it.

I prefer just a compost. Last year we mixed together a purchased compost, manure, and a sandy potting mix and used that as a mulch about 3 inches thick . It worked real good except the cat thanked me profusely for making her such a nice big potty box.

Where is your FIL Dave? I see some home sawyers burning the slabs which is too bad 'cause they make good planters. By slabs I mean the sides of the logs that they slice off when they make 2 x 4s, 6, 8, etc. from the rest of the tree. The slabs have the bark on them. A lot of people buy the home sawmills, $3,000, and make their own lumber. It is not kiln dried tho.

Jnette...my husband milled our pine floor for our log cabin in which we live. He bought the logs for our home as a kit, and put most up by himself, though had the concrete basement poured by pros. It is really beautiful.

Yes, I believe it. The kits are real nice. Most of them . I have seen some very nice ones. Your husband did a good job. Those are a lot of work for even a crew let alone one person.

Have you all checked out this site: http://www.instagarden.com/ They also have a phone Number where you can talk to BobaBob 561-305-8870.

I buy all my Coca Coir from them and I have found most all of my cuttings thrive in it.
It holds the moisture when you finally get it wet and I have ad seeds come up in it that took weeks to germinate in MG seed starter. Just tried it again this year with the Easter Egg seeds and the MG never came up. The Coco Coir

Forgive me if this is the forum I found this information on. I know it was on DG but I thought it was some tropical group. It works with all seeds very well. My cuttings do very well in it also.

My FIL i in eugene. You are so right about the use of nitrogen. I really didnt stop to thunk it through. I was wonderng how much impact the dust has on the ph. azaleas may love it but the rest of the plant world wont.
OK JB... I'll bite...how much does one brick turn into??? what do you mix with it for yur mix??? I would think you wuld want t use perlite and maybe some pine chips to add air space to the mix.
ne key thing about soil mixes is airspace. Plants rely on the airspace for the roots. When we properly water we force the old air out of that part of the mix and then the mix settles down and the sir space empties to give a fresh air supply to the roots. air exchange is a key part to insure yur plants survive.
Dave

That is one reason my daughter prefers the coir chips to the dust. Different texture and air space. Also the chips are something for the larger plants to anchor to. She uses it mainly for
her brugs etc.,

I can't remember how much they swell up to. I bought one in a pet store of all places. I don't know what they use them for. JB, would you know?

I bought some from BocaBob, too. I found some locally, so I would save on shipping. One of the other things I LOVE about the coir, is it is so light. The bags of potting mix can be so heavy.

I would think the petstore use would be like cedar shavings in hampster cages....
Dave

No, this was the dust. I can't imagine why they had it. Should have asked them.

Lynn, I remember your saying you had bought a lot of the stackers. Be sure you take a lot of pictures so we can see what you did with them. I was going to try them, but couldn't imagine what I would put in them. Guess I should have bought some. I got 25 strawberry plants for my sb jar and it only is taking about a dozen plants. Going to have half of them left. I will have to find some place to plant them.

That is the smallest batches they sell them in.

Last year I planted peas, beans, carrots, cilantro. The carrots did not do well because I was a weenie and did not thin them. Lesson learned the hard way. The peas and beans did great, but I stupidly let them grow too big, another lesson learned. Last winter I planted my garlic in a stacker, but they have not come up yet. So I figured that I did something wrong, or they froze this winter. I will get more garlic and try again.

I planted strawberries in a 3 tier stacker last week. There are 6 compartments per tier. I have never had good luck with strawberries, either. What is the secret?

Lynn:
If you will give me an email address to send a pdf file to I will forward the extention's how to on straw berries. Any time I am hving issue with something or I want to try something I check it out through them 1st and of course DG...
The one thing about leaving plants in containers through the winter you need to remember to water them right before a big storm and give them a shelter, like milk jugs 3/4 full of water arounf the container. I know out in the nursery I try to put landscape timbers on the outside of plants and bunch everyone together with the more tender plants either in the garage or serounded by hardier plants.
I agree its tough to do a small containers in any of the bare root crops as they like to sell bunches of 25 or more. Have a great evening
Dave

I think also things like the garlic being in a small amount of soil and freezing, The garlic is going to freeze also. Now if you were to plant the stacker in the ground until after the last frost, and cover it with straw or something, and then take it up after the last frost it would probably be ok. The large/vast amount of the ground around it would insulate it somewhat, plus the straw.

lynnw@skynettbb.com
Thanks, Dave

Let me know how your strawberries turn out, Jeanette. I think mine are Tri star.

Where did you get your Tri Star Lynn? I ended up getting my from Jung. Not too many seed catalogs carried them. Probably in the stores in Spokane I could have gotten them.

McClendon Hardware. I think I bought 10 plants at 1.19 each

That comes out about the same as mine with shipping. But I couldn't get less than 25. Did you just get them this year? Or are they carry overs?