This is where I'm at

Hi Folks,
I have been reading on Daves and checking out the site so I can get to the info that I need when I have to. This site is great with all the contributions from all of you. I have a lot of researching to do and an awful lot to learn. I can plant and do the work as anyone can but now I have to keep these things alive and healthy.

I worked on that blog thing. That is time consuming and awkward to use as an editor. The thing puts in your last writing at the top so it is all backwards. I found a loophole so I could put it in chronological order up to today.
I’ve got one started and a small jump on it. I see that a blog is a continuing diary as the topic you write about moves forward. I had to catch up as the time frame in which my period of events happened were both past and present.

This is the point I am at now on some property that I want to landscape. It is a small start of the idea I had when I bought the property and walked it. With your help I believe it can happen. If you have time in the future can you please read it and inform me of anything that I am doing that may be against the norm for gardeners that will result in failure. If you see something and say to yourself that bonehead's doing it all wrong and it’s all going to die please let me know. I can take it. I have wasted money the first time around and as you read you will see I’m trying to recycle or barter and dig up stuff that I have held on to for years and never used.

I look at the gallery pics of your gardens in awe. Mine needs something. Maybe they will look better as time goes on and I have been filling my beds for years, I don’t know. I think I need a female touch here as I am kind of crude & rough around the edges in certain ways, not to mention the fact I don’t know what I’m doing.

Anyway please give it to me straight and I will heed your advise.

http://pentwaterproperty.blogspot.com/

Thank you for your time.


Joel.
Penth2o_1@charter.net


This message was edited Jul 26, 2009 6:54 PM

This message was edited Jul 26, 2009 6:57 PM

Bump...nice blog. Quite a project. Look forward to seeing what becomes of it!

I read for a long time on your blog. I can tell you've put a lot of thought and very hard work into this landscaping project. It is good to have vision and plans. It doesn't hurt to have a strong back and knees to boot!

I only have a couple observations. Unless you want to be weeding your buns off make sure to get into those beds early in the spring.........along in March.........and put down a lot of Preen. Preen will prevent weed seeds from germinating. It needs to be reapplied in 90 days. Landscape fabric (and don't go cheap on it. Get the good stuff) and a few inch layer of mulch will hold down the weeds greatly but sooner or later little seeds get dropped on top of the mulch and they will grow! Don't let it get away from you. You have a lot of area to cover and you are going to have to stay on top of it or it will all go back wild.

Don't make more flower beds than you have time, money and energy to keep up. In my younger days I had a ton of formal flower beds and it took me probably twenty hours a week to keep it looking good. I didn't work full time and enjoyed it. Now that I'm older I have downsized the amount of plants/beds I have to keep in line with my abilities. I even hire a little help from time to time with the big jobs. Remember, many plants will need to be divided in a few years and that takes time and effort. Deadheading alone can keep you busy not to mention pruning when needed or attending to this disease or that bug.

I don't want to discourage you. I just want you to realize that when you finish that bed it's only the beginning. :) If you love it then you won't mind the work. If you have a family, job and other demands on your time you could find yourself overwhelmed trying to keep all that up.

Keep writing in your blog and taking pictures. That is very good and keeps you grounded in your efforts. I enjoyed very much reading and plan to visit again soon.

Nice blog. I have one too! www.flowrgirl1.blogspot.com

Hey Joel, no time to read right now but in 2-3 years you will be surprised at how things will fill in and get bigger.
How plants grow...
1st year the sleep
2nd year the creep
3rd year they leap
Gardens are truly a continual work in progress.
I'm always changing, re-arranging and finding out what works and doesn't work for me....and keep that in mind...what works for me
might not work for you with your unique soil and climate.
That's why recommendations are so subjective depending
on personal taste and climate.
Good luck and have fun with it!

P.S.
LUCKY you being in Z6!
It will make your life so much easier!
How close are you to the lake?

I just took a quick peek at your blog...LMAO re. your deer rant!
You really didn't do all those things did you?!


This message was edited Aug 2, 2009 8:55 AM

Here's the poor deer damaged tree.
Mind you...I'm surrounded by hundreds of acres of trees
and the bleepin' deer jumps into my duck pen and methodically destroys the tree, one branch a day.
There was a whole other main branch that forked off from the base of the trunk too that we had to cut off because Bambi had striped all the bracnhes off it.
GRRRRR!!!!!

Thanks folks,

Kristopher,
I'm looking forward to what becomes of it also. Something better come out of it other than deer food. Do they still have the dealer car auctions down in Jenison? I use to go with a friend of mine and buy vehicles at the dealers auction in the 70's.

Brenda,
Thanks for the wise advice. I think the foot & half of wood chips actually make it easier weeding the few weeds that do come up. It's like the roots run at the surface and they pull like butter (except the oak seedlings).

I'm finding out that I do love this gardening thing. I can't believe I'm saying this... Five years ago my friends would crack me in the head talking like this. I put earphones in my head and find it very relaxing & satisfiying. I think it is too late for overdoing the beds and creating work. I just started the front yard and have not even thought about the back which is a lot bigger and more ideas than the front.

I may have to get some help down the road as I can see what your talking about with the time spent. Know any single gardeners ;} :}

Michelle,
I looked at your blog thing. All I can say is WOW. That's it just WOW.
Your in my old playground. I still go there quite often. I use to know a woman that had a fantastic herb garden that she ran a shop out of. Just beautiful it was. Your parents probably know who I'm talking about.

Vicky,
I hope your right on that sleep, creep, leap thing. Although I hope I'm not always changing things. I was wondering why some of my friends were always tearing up their yards & beds having me come dig stuff out.

About the deer thing. I really wanted to try gardening and they ate a lot of money the first time around. I got obsessed with trying to get rid of those S.O.B's. I'm not proud but yes I have done all those things you were asking about if I did them or not. What I didn't add was that I got in trouble with the law and was given a break from a Judge friend. I still can't possese a hunting liscense for 10 years. I don't hunt anyways. I just want them gone. Don't want to go into details but something about building home made claymore mines with the intent to harm deer...........
That is history. I'm better now :} I now spray liquid fence and am trying to find a way to garden and live with the deer. I get them truck loads of corn & apples, beets and whatever my farmer friends grow and put it way in the woods hopeing they will stay away.

I couldn't sleep last night so I set up my generator & lights and whacked some trees in the woods for poles and dug a bunch of holes and mixed some good soil for shrubs to line the driveway. When daylight hit I went and purchased some 8 ft deer fencing along with some shrubs and started a fence to keep them out as I want these to get a decent start. Here is what I have done as of 8:40 tonight. You can see the deer eaten forsynthia's from my last attempt. It is hard to see the fencing. It is 147 ft so it is taken some time plus I have to do both sides.
I will finish it tomorrow if I get out of work & I can still stand. I'm tired and fried and rambling so goodnight folks.
nt

Jeeez Joel I need some of your energy after work I just want to veg for a while ;0)
Gloria

Joel you should have a reality show about your battle with the deer.
My advise...keep it simple and only grow deer resistant plants if there's really such a thing.
Have you ever considered houseplants as an alternative hobby?

Joel,

You have it bad son. To get up in the night and hook up your generator for lights and cut down trees??? I think you might need a therapy group. ha ha ha

CR gave you good advice. Keep it simple and only grow deer resistant plants. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to keep the deer off that much stuff.

Your theory to put a lot of food out in the woods to keep them away from your house is faulty. I had the same idea. Guess what happened? All the deer I had told all their shirt tail relatives from other counties to come to Looney Acres to eat that I was really putting on a good spread. OMG, one day I looked out at the edge of the property where I had dumped food and there were over 40 deer there eating. It was amazing. Now, normally, I would never have that many deer here but because I was feeding them it increased the herd coming here. My advice would be to tell the neighbor five miles down the road to feed them and you stop feeding them and they'll all go to his place. :)

To keep up with you I think you need more than one single gardening female. You need a harem!! You better buy stock in Liquid Fence. You are going to need it. You might be able to make your own. I know it has rotten eggs in it and garlic. Not sure what else. Works good though as long as you reapply it ever few weeks.

Brenda

joel it looks great!!!!

Brenda,

Shhhh......
I put it at the end of the property by my new neighbor's house who is planting fresh food around his house.

They only come up from Chicago every so often as it will be their retirement home so I don't think he stands a chance. Hope he doesn't stumble upon Dave's or he stays in the Illinios forum. Not a good way to meet the neighbors.

Your right. I'll quit feeding them. Last thing I need is more deer.

Obviously you have tried everything and failed.
I would scale back on my garden beds an simply
do container gardening and keep them on my porches etc.
You can grow just about anything in them and no weeding to deal with.

Here's a Rosemary I brought in for the winter.

sedums

window boxes

wooden box

My 4 year old granddaughter calls this the "Jesus" planter...

Another big planter pict. freshly planted before the flowers got bigger

Coleus planter...the pots there somewhere.

Plants on the kitchen porch

Can you tell I have alot of pots?
Hope this inspires you to stop torturing yourself by hosting
a Whitetail deer buffet and convert to container gardening.

I grow lots of herbs in pots too like Basil.
You can even grow lettuce, spinach, radishes etc. etc. in pots.
I've even grown roses in pots.

This message was edited Aug 4, 2009 9:37 AM

One more...

Okay Joel...
where are you?
Did you get trampled by a herd of deer
or did the state PO-lice pick you up again? ;o)

Cottage Rose, I sent you D-Mail on July 29th. You haven't answered so I wondered if you got it or not.

Loon...have have d-mail!

Hi Guys,
Vicky, I am committed to this. I can’t do the pot thing as my deck will look beautiful and my yard a sand pit. I had some on the deck before and they climbed two flights of stairs to eat all but some of the herbs. I came home tonight and scared one rouge deer that was brave enough to get close to the house. He got one rose bush & some lily’s and that was with liquid fence sprayed yesterday.

I was hoping I could get by with just buying that deer fencing and do just around the areas that I have a lot of stuff and use liquid fence spray for the rest. It’s not happening.
I’m a little P.Oed right now at those bas@^*$s.

I’m going this weekend and purchasing enough fencing to do the whole 5 acres. I’ll have to make a gate for the driveway also. I was hoping to put it off till later as that stuff is outrageously priced but, rather than go to jail for gunning down every deer I see I’m spending the weekend putting up fencing.
Goodnight...

Wow...never heard of deer coming up on porches!
You must be growing all the plants deer love to eat.
With all that fencing and gates the State Police will think
you have a Meth lab or something....plus it will look industrial
and not really beautify your beach landscape.
If I had that many problems with deer I'm afraid I would give up.
Sand has its benefits ya know...not much grows in it besides native grasses, you don't have to mow or weed much.
I would landscape with some deer resistant native plants that grow in sand, (although NOT Yucca/LOL) maybe do some stone work and
add some concrete statuary, simple but elegant....no wooden granny butts or kissing Dutch people.
Whatever you do...good luck!




This message was edited Aug 5, 2009 10:45 AM

Joel,

Before spending all that money on fencing (and unless you make it 8 feet high the deer can jump it), why not run an ad in the paper this fall inviting hunters to hunt your land. You'd be surprised at how many deer a dozen hunters can take out. Do any of your neighbors hunt or have hunters come?

You are fighting a losing battle. I knew when I put in my veggie garden I had to put up an 8 foot fence. I spent the money to fence in an area of 30' x 50' with a gate. I've watched deer walking around that fence trying to figure out how to get at my beautiful veggies. So far (knock on wood) they have not got in there. It was a good investment. So far, the liquid fence has kept them off everything else. I can't believe that your deer ate stuff you had just sprayed. Are you sure you are putting enough of the concentrate in before mixing? Make it stronger. Also buy Milorganite and spread around your plants. It's made from sewage sludge and will deter animals. You can't smell it but they can. It's fine fertilizer for ornamentals.

I'm sorry you're struggling so much. Deer aren't the only animals to fight. I find more damage from rabbits than deer. Planting things they don't like is about the best thing you can do. There are a lot of lovely plants, shrubs and trees they aren't interested in. I've never had anything eat my lilacs. Nothing is fullproof though. If they're hungry enough they'll eat the siding off your house!

Hang in there and don't give up. Wait till you get a handle on your deer problem before you invest more time and effort into landscaping though. I've never had deer want to eat certain plants like catmint or bee balm or lavender. There are tons of things you can plant safely. Forget about roses and hostas unless you want to babysit them.

Good luck.

Honestly Joel doesn't sound like a guy whom gives up to easily...^_^
I LOVED your blog on the deer.... Brenda has some excellent advice with the deer hunting invitation...

I have faith in you Joel that you'll get it all figured out...it brings back memories of the cartoon the roadrunner...beep...beep!

Delane ;)

Cant you shoot animals that are wrecking your crops?

I never had to shoot a deer but i have taken our many rabbits,coon,chipmunk, and woodchucks!
stay away from my gardens!!!

I think there are actually permits for land owners to shoot extra nuisance deer on their property but that might just be for farmers.
Joel have you contacted the DNR for suggestions/help?

We have a friend who actually "rents" out his 10 acres during hunting season. He makes enough money to pay his taxes on his property.

Just an idea.

BANG BANG DEER JERKY!! my nephew sells it under the Remington label maybe he needs a new supplier!!!!

Hi Dori,
Tell him he is more than welcome to come up north for a little vacation and take back as many as he can haul downstate.


Plants deer don’t eat:
There aren’t any. I have gone down the list off the web and the ONLY thing they have not touched were my yucca’s. Now they don’t seem to be messing with the catmint or sage.

I even brought in coyote thinking they would pack up and hunt deer. They don’t. They put every small game animal I had on the extinction list. I did have one chipmunk this year but he followed behind me as I planted yarrow seedlings and ate them to the ground so I had to blast him. The only thing I have left is birds and a stray cat I’m feeding.

I’ve got friends getting them with bows, guns & powder guns throughout the hunting seasons. My garbage man came opening day last year and got one after getting out of his vehicle. My friends come and we are having coffee at the kitchen table and they don’t even get up. They blast one through the open deck door then finish their coffee and load it up and go home. I’m not a hunter but I have many people shooting them from my deck.
They tell me deer are territorial & stay in a five mile range but I don’t think so. Between my friends and everybody I invite to shoot them they should have cleaned out all 5 miles by now.

Ok, So what I have not tried:

Milorganite: Brenda, I have not tried that Milorganite. I will get some Friday and spread it over everything. Can you get it by the truckload somewhere. There is a farm co-op up in Scottville.

Dog: I can’t do that as I’m single and would leave a 100 lb bag of food and take off for who knows how long. I’d come back to a dead dog with a blown out stomach laying in my living room…

Fence: I’m paying $26.00/Gal for liquid fence. I spray 3 gallons every 9 days. The fencing I’m buying is $129 for a 100 ft roll. I haven’t figured out the total ft I need for five acres as I just got mad enough yesterday to think about getting it this weekend.
I just ordered the steel and finials for the gate today. If any of these other ideas work for deer than I will have a custom gate for sale.

I was thinking the fence will only be seen on the front part of the land. I was hoping to get lilacs & forsythias going to hide the fencing but they ate all those four years ago. That is what I just lined the drive with now and put the fencing (8ft) up to give them a head start. The fence along the sides of the property will be hidden in very thick woods. In fact I don’t have to use poles. I can use the trees. I just have to hide the front side with something that grows tall. I have access to common lilacs that have shoots coming up from the ground. Will this work????? I was planning on digging up 150 of them and planting them close so I won’t have to wait so long for them to get wide.

I don’t know. I’ve exhausted my ideas and the fence is the only thing I can come up with. The only legal idea anyways. If I want to go back to my old ways it will be WWIII around here.

Thanks & if you can come up with anything that is legal please let me know. I will try the Milorganite but have to start the gate as a backup plan so I don’t lose everything I have planted to date.

Sorry so long. I get out of work and I’m fried and end up rambling endlessly on here.

I hope the Milorganite works for you. It comes in a big bag like lawn fertilizer comes in. YOu cannot buy it by the truckload. For me, it did last the whole growing season. It does fertilizer your plantings so you get two bangs for your buck...........something good for the plants and something to deter the deer. If you feel so inspired you can try urinated around the perimeter of your property. Some animals will respect human urine and not cross the line. Depends on how hungry they are. Just not feeding the deer should make them move on to better dining accomodations.

Usually, my deer only venture out to eat my stuff early in the spring when there is little in the woods to eat. Once the natural bushes and trees in the woods leaf out they stay in there and eat what's available.............unless they've already scouted up by the house and smell/see I have yummies like roses and hosta etc. Then they remember that and come back. Usually the Liquid Fence makes them take a different path and not come by as long as I repeat the sprayings. Are you buying the Liquid Fence that is already mixed up or the concentrate you mix yourself? If you get the concentrate try mixing it up a bit stronger. They may have become accustomed to the taste. Maybe add in some hot pepper flakes. Won't hurt your plants but might make them think twice about munching down on that.

Keep the hunters coming in.

Good luck,

Brenda

Quote: "I even brought in coyote"
HOW does one do that?!

Thanks Gals,
I will get some Milorganite Friday. I'm using the liquid fence pre mixed. I didn't know you could get concentrate. I will get some of that also and mix it extra strength.

I have friends (not really friends but local rednecks I know) that trap and shoot coyote (I guess for their hides) I don't know maybe they are shooting them just because everyone says they are a nuisance to farmers. They trapped live ones for me and released them here.
At 10:45 you can hear one or two start to howl. At 11:50 you hear about nine or ten of them going nuts then after midnight they go silent and on the run. I don't understand what the farmers beef is with them. If they won't run my deer I'm sure they are not killing their cows.

Another thought I had while at work today was to just fence in part of my property to see if that works before I blow a ton on fencing. I read on the web that fencing is the only true way to get the job done then later read where people say it is a joke as the deer just run right through it.

Everywhere I go I see yards eaten up. I read the numbers with insurance Co. reports on car/deer accidents which is alarming. The DNR needs to pull their head out and do an open season on them for a while, not just doe permits with their little lottery they have now. If it were cougars or wolf over running us I’m sure they would take care of them. The damage deer do extends far beyond just us gardeners.

While working today I was thinking about shooting them with some kind of sterilization drug but that won’t work. They won’t have anymore fawns but the ones that remain will still clean me out. Geez, I got to get these things out of my head…..

Ok, I have rambled and taken enough of your guys time with my deer problem. I appreciate all your input and will try everything I have not tried yet. If you remember a solution or hear of one drop me a note. I will do the same if I come up with a way to eliminate these things.

EFFECTIVE DEER FENCES
Dr. Leonard Perry, Extension Professor
University of Vermont

If you've tried various forms of sight, sound, taste, and touch repellents for deer, yet still have them feeding on your choice garden plants, perhaps it's time to consider a fence. Just because you have a fence doesn't mean it will be effective at keeping out deer. There are several facts you need to keep in mind when installing such a fence.

Height, or width, is probably the most important factor with deer fences, especially if high deer pressure. White-tailed deer can jump almost eight feet high, so effective upright fences against them should be this high. Deer may be able to jump high, but not both high and over a distance. So a fence may not be as high, perhaps six feet, but slanted outward. The deer will try walking under the fence and meet resistance. Such a slanted fence should be at a 45-degree angle, and may consist of fencing with a few strands of additional wire on top for extra height.

A variation can be used to convert a shorter upright fence. Merely add additional height to posts, and string more fencing or additional strands of wire between them. If the fence is about five feet high, you may also add additions to the posts parallel to the ground and on the outside of the fence. Add strands of wire between these to achieve the same effect as a slanted fence.

If you have a standard fence about four or five feet feet high, you can add a similar and additional one about four feet away. While not high, with this width deer usually wont like to try and clear both and perhaps get caught between or on them.

Out of sight, out of mind, applies to deer with solid wooden fences, or ones with overlapping slats they can't see through. Such privacy fences are quite effective, as deer can't tell what is on the other side. Even if they can smell what is on the other side, and it's attractive to them, they can't be sure that danger isn't lurking there as well.

One less expensive variation on the high fence is to use a commercial heavy-weight deer netting if the deer pressure is low to moderate. These products are quite popular for home gardens as they are easier to work with than wire mesh, are less expensive, and blend into the landscape. Another inexpensive solution is stringing single strands of monofilament twine (such as deep sea fishing twine) between posts, about six inches apart. If deer pressure is really low, you might even get by with a single strand about two feet off the ground. Deer bump into this, are surprised at something they didn't or can't see, so may flee.

Keep in mind deer can't see well (poor depth perception), so many advocate hanging streamers on the lower strands or netting so deer can see them and don't just try running through. Some recommend not putting such ribbon streamers on the top as this tells the deer the fence height. Some have even suggested adding streamers on extensions above the fence, to make deer think it is even taller and so even harder to jump. Some advocate using white streamers to mimic the white tail signal that deer use to warn of danger.

There are many variations of electric fences. You may begin with a single strand, about 30 inches off the ground. Some make this more visible to deer by using bright flagging tape, or conductive polytape. This also helps people avoid these fences by mistake. Make this single strand even more effective and attractive to deer by smearing peanut butter on aluminum foil. One taste wont kill deer, but it will surely discourage them from returning. Studies have shown, though, that using odor repellents in combination with an electric wire may be more effective than using the peanut butter bait.

Single strands of electric wire may work if low populations, but if more deer pressure you may need to add multiple strands. You may add these in various configurations as for mesh and strand fences, with the electric wires about a foot apart along the post supports. With any electric fence, use them only if children wont have a chance of getting injured. Some residential areas may even prohibit them, so check local ordinances first.

If you have just an isolated tree or few plants to protect, consider building a cage around them. You may drive stakes into the ground, stretching wire mesh or deer netting between them. Or you can make a portable frame of scrap lumber or PVC pipe, attaching netting to these. If portable, make sure such frames are anchored so deer wont push them over. Make sure such mesh has small openings, or is far enough from the plants, to keep deer from reaching the plants through the mesh.

Rhonda Massingham Hart, in her revised book on Deerproofing Your Yard and Garden, gives many more details on deer fences and installing them, plus some additional tips.
* As with other controls, it is best to use them before you have a problem. Train deer first, before they find your plants, or even before you plant.
* Fences must be tight, can't have gaps, and should be checked often. Deer almost always will find the openings.
* With this last point in mind, installing fences over uneven terrain can be difficult, leaving openings large enough for deer.