what i will be doing differently after the clem trip is the folllowing
1. more hard pruning mid july (now) of all type 3's, not just ones who look poorly. and hard prune to ground vs a few inches.
2. add chipped gravel, not pea gravel, to my soil mixture. up to 20%.
3. continuing with my 18 inch deep holes but use a bulb planting auger on a drill at the bottom to work some amendments into the bottom of the hole before starting to back fill. they use some amazing big hole planting augers out there, this is my take on how to adapt better practices easily NOW to my garden.
4. I had never given much thought to the 45% angle when planting a clem, as I thought i had understood from the threads that the purpose is to have the clem stem emerge on an angel to the trellis. after finding out this is one of deb fishers methods and WHY it is a better method, i am switching over completely to this for vining and non species clems. the reason is not for the stem emergence angle. that may very well be straight up to the sun anyway....it is so that the roots along the top, closer to the surface will produce multiple crowns, or produce them much sooner, which will produce more stems and vines and flowers and even be dividable at some point if you wanted to. i am not looking to divide unless needed, but def looking for more stem, more vines, more flowers. multiple crowns mean more protection too in event of demise of the original crown. once i fully understood the reason, which was never explained this way on the forum on the postings i read. i know deb fisher has shared the angle planting with others, which is how it seeped out into the clem knowledge here on the forum.
5. stop the use of sand as a horticultural amendment. clay plus sand makes cement. hit me like a ton of bricks.
tomorrow is the first day of the rest of my clem life.....
what i will now do differently in my garden
I have to laugh CG. Our soil here is heavy clay. I can remember reading the clay + sand = cement thing years ago and just thinking...WOW. Sand is not that easily obtained for me so I was glad I was off the hook on the sand thing! On the other had, would you like some pygmy goats? We clear out their pen and compost the straw, hay leavings, and poop. Works great. Shall I stamp a few and send them to you? Note: have pen ready...they like to browse. Columbine is a favorite, as are lilac, chives, and pond rush. Not sure about the clems, but why take a chance?
nope, did goats years ago. loved it. but going forward no live stock planned here. bagged aged manure easily available and cheap!
i am so glad to find out about the sand here before i used more if it. i think i used paver sand tho which is different form regular sand, it is more crushed gravel, so don't think i did any long term harm here.
It is so ironic that I had just talked with Maurice at Joy Creek on the phone two days ago and he told me the same thing about the sand and clay and gravel. I've already printed out this new advice for my clem notebook.
Now, I've got to find a source for crushed gravel. I saw the size he was talking about because I just received my first order ever from Joy Creek. I received Rebecca and Negritanka. Debbie didn't have either right now. I was shocked at how good the roots were, especially on Negritanka. He took so much time on the phone with me and gave me so much good advice. Nice people!
CG, please take a pic of your bulb planting auger on a drill when you get that all set up. I'm sure I'm not the only one who will want to see that. Are you talking about the same kind of cordless drill we all probably have already? This is very interesting advice.
Also, today I noticed that EV and Kermasina have finished blooming. With this new knowledge, would you advise pruning all the way to the ground NOW? Will that mean no second round of blooms this year?
yes, hard prune those 2. it will mean fresh vines, leaves, and blooms this season if you leave them unpruned the second flush will e much less in quanitity. hard prune and fertilize now.
i am checking out paver sand, it is crushed gravel and may work as crushed gravel would. haven't; had a chance to do so.
the tulip auger is a long metal stick with a large drill on the end, you use it in a cordless drill. haven't used mine in years and am looking for it this afternoon. hubbie knows where it is.
joy creek is a first class business for sure. i have gotten many good clems them, and esp with hard to find or species types that i like to collect. that sundance is a honey of a clem. saw it out there in the joy creek display garden.
1 What can I expect when I hard prune group 3's?
2. Why add chipped gravel? I'm assuming it's to keep clay soil loose, right?
4. Fascinating - thank you so much for sharing what you have learned. I will always plant at an angle for now on and make sure I make proper holes.
I've been asking for builder's sand at Lowe's rather than play sand, which I think is maybe sterilized or something. In fact, I just bought two more bags. I've been thinking that it helps my soil mixture to be well-drained. Too much peat moss tends to make it slower to drain in my experience. I'll ask about paver sand when I go back and also start looking for crushed gravel. Is this necessary even if I don't mix clay in my soil mixture?
I learned a long time ago to not use sand in the soil because it's too easy to goof up the mix and make it worse. Course builders sand is better than play sand, which should never be used because it is too fine grained.
The reason I hesitate using chipped gravel is it seems like it would slice the roots.
The chips are very tiny, no larger than 1/4 inch. From what I've seen of mature clem roots like those from SSV, they seem to be pretty thick and tough. When I was planting a clem from Joy Creek the other day, I found one of the pieces of gravel he was talking about. It is smaller than pea gravel. I don't think I will be afraid to try this IF I can find it.
when you hard prune a group 3 mid july after main blooms are waning or gone, fertilize it. it takes a rest anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks and then starts pushing new shoots up. in my zone they can come back to 3 to 5 ft by sept and be in full bloom.
when you do not hard prune a 3 in the spring and leave any stem on it , the new growth may come from that stem vs the new shoots which is never as good.
when i leave some stem on a 3 in the spring, i have learned that it is never as good as if i had hard pruned it in the spring as recommended.
the crushed gravel is small and it does not bother the roots. the pea gravel or smooth stone gravel can encourage the roots to wrap around the gravel vs stretch and reach out for deep moisture and nutrients to establish the best possible plant.
regarding mid season pruning i historically have done this sporadically with the clems that are looking bad or have not flourished. maybe just bits and pieces trimmed the ones that are good performers. starting tomorrow that is over. all my 3's are all getting a real hard prune mid season this this what makes a good clem a great clem if the soil and nutrients including water are adequate.
i guess i know this, but was just more conservative..and seeing these clems in person and talking to deb in person i realize i can build a better clem with this care.
I'm heading out right now to do that You DID say "to the ground" and not three leaf nodes up from the crown. Right?
yep
to the ground. in your zone that should give a great re bloom on the 3's. i have done it to 2's also when they are young, weak etc.
you go sharey. deb fisher's nickname is the clem butcher!
i was pruning alongside of linda beutler last sat at the rogerson collection, and the 3's came down to the ground.
lol
Well, I DID IT! At first it was a little scary, but then I had fun with it. All along I was thinking about what I tell my grandgirls about not trusting strangers. This should prove to you how much I trust you. I guess you're not really a stranger anymore, though, but a clem buddy. Right?
Then, I started pruning everything in site--perennials, roses, anything I could find that was overgrown. If I were a hairstylist, my customers would have gone home without any hair today with the mood I was in.
This is going to be very interesting to see how long it takes to see growth re-appear, but I'm not worried about it. I have complete confidence that it will.
I hope you know how much we appreciate your sharing all of your new knowledge with us, especially since you were the lucky one and we had to stay home.
Speaking of Debbie's nickname, I usually address her "Dear Clematis Abby" when I e-mail for advice.
Looks like I might have a reason to open this. Is this what could be used? I originally bought it to aerate the compost pile.
Also interested in the gravelchips/ crushed gravel. I will be passing by a rock quarry tomorrow(on the way to Nordstrom anniversary sale!) and will try to remember my camera and ruler.
Thank you CG for this great information. Almost makes me want to dig up all my clems and replant them!
I don't want pygmy goats. If I were to put up with goats, they would be angora goats so that I could have my own mohair. I would love alpacas or possibly sheep ... Alas, no room for them here. I am researching and looking at real estate, so maybe eventually.... In the meantime, it is just Tiffany and Bella. One bright spot in the current economic situation is that real estate is getting more affordable in this area.
I haven't thought of adding gravel, but I leave the little rocks in the dirt. They call this area the slate belt. The soil is mostly rocks and sand with isolated areas of clay. And lots of tree roots. I have two heavy clay "dead spaces" in one flower bed. Water or damp soil would stagnate there. I added ceder mulch with the soil in those areas. It seemed to help. I didn't think of adding rocks back into the clay spots, but will try it. As much as I complain about the rocks, solid clay would be worse. At least clematis can grow by the ClemGuru liner method in imperfect soil and near trees.
I am really inspired by pictures of ClemGuru's garden. It is possible to have a beautiful, clematis filled garden in a wooded setting. As I said before, I am a new gardener. I started trying (and continuing to try) growing roses and irises, both favorite flowers. I also try to fit in some fresh veggies, mostly in pots. This is a starter home and starter garden. I am looking at it as an experiment and learning experience. I will approach my next garden with design in mind, plants in tow and experience under my belt. The bf looked at the garden and said, it is going to take a month just to dig this stuff out when you move. He also said, I know they are coming with you because they have names....I am not the shovel pruning type. I can't imagine leaving Wildeve and my other plants behind to be "rounded up" by some stranger. I do hope they like morning glories because they will continue to reseed themselves long after I leave.
I love the tips. I am anxiously awaiting Clem Guru's top ten (or more) clem list! I would love to read top ten (or more) tips. I cut and past tips to wordpad for future reference.
This video is not for the faint of heart... *gulp*
http://www.gardengatemagazine.com/extras/083/pruning_clematis.php
Welcome home Guru, really missed you. Glad to know that the trip created a new
garden life for you (us.) I am so excited reading your post that I probably have misunderstood most of it. Any way I use perlite mixed with my soil. Don't use any of the
removed clay soil & i add pea gravel to the bottom of the hole. You think I have created a mess? Oh yes, i also add to the soil mixture purchased leaf compost; bonemeal and manure.
Thanks'
confussedlady
Guru, does using an auger at the bottom of the hole prevent the "bathtub" effect?
Thanks'
confussed
Cg, several questions. If we have just planted new clematis (within a few weeks) without the gravel and auger holes, do you think we should dig them up and do it? I do have a few where the clay made me a little nervous...Also, pruning ALL group 3's to ground?? Even if this is between nodes, level to ground? Viticellas and everything 3? As you can see, we all have a few more questions!
Thanks, Nancy
Nancy, I have some clematis that have a lot of shoots and bloom great, so I see no reason to mess with them at this point. I have others, group 2 & 3s that haven't multiplied well. Those I plan on digging up, making a proper planting hole, and replanting at an angle.
CG, Interesting about pruning group 3 in jul. can you tell us why? Would that be a good idea for me in hot, hot gulf coast TX?
and when you mean hard prune, do you mean to the ground? 6"?
JJ, I think I will leave them alone, except for the couple that just went in last week. Only a few I am a little less than happy about, so I think I will do like you are going to do for those. That is doable! Thanks! I have an Avant Garde that I have had for a few years and bloomed beautifully this year. Many compliments on the plant, even from hubby's
friends. I like the look of the vine as it is, even without the flowers, so I was wondering if the pruning of all 3's meant viticellas as well. AG was so beautiful that I am thinking on getting another one to plant with an established Comptess de Bouchaud. Would they both be ok to prune back at the same time in July?? (next year) Tx, Nancy
Nancy, I'm not going to fix what isn't broke, if you know what I mean.
The viticellas are still blooming and with my short growing season, I'm not taking a chance of cutting the blooms now for a next flush that might get hit by frost in mid September. Plus, I have some clematis that are on trellises used for screening and I'm not cutting those either. I've been deadheading what is still blooming, which includes viticellas, which keep producing new buds, so I'd rather keep doing that for now.
Taking the conservative approach will give me some idea as to what is best for my growing zone. I don't know what zone SSV and Joy Creek gardens are in, but my guess is their winters aren't nearly as long and harsh as mine.
I plan on keeping notes on each plant, so everything doesn't drain from my mind over winter. I might be a little more aggressive next year based on the results this year.
punkysmawma, what did you make your soil mixture out of that you filed your holes with? this Q is in reference to your Q about ones you have planted recently.
i put 5 clems into day. had a helper who dug the holes. i used the tulip auger at the bottom of the hole and it worked well. used it to stir up the bottom and work some of the amended soil in a little deeper. used lots of chipped gravel in my mixture.
pruned off a lot of group 3's, yes to the ground for those of you who asked.
when you leave some stem on those ,the new shoots usually come from the top of that stem, and they are never as good long term as fresh shoots right from the root mass. this is really important in the spring to do the 3's hard, to the ground.otherwise, those shoots that do not come from the ground are the ones who poop out early in the season.
i understand reservations to take 3's to the ground now, esp in zones colder than here. ssv and joy creek are zone 6, they have a hard winter , but there are differences. however, most of my clems bloomed earlier than the same varieties out there this year! i can only speak to my zone and my garden and my experience. but most of the 3's i take down will be 4 to 5 ft tall in sept and a good second blooming vs a few random spindly blooms. i took down some 2's that looked horrible also. have more to do tomorrow and everybody not in bloom will get fertilizer and then everybody will be top dressed with manure/alfalfa. compost mixture. this is a big process with so many clems but will be completed with in a week and then wait for the late summer show. if i discover any that do not respond well to this regime i will certainly track that and be happy to let you know. my best clems are those that i have pruned in this manner. i took my PPE down to the ground today, it was ratty looking. i am not sure it will respond well, but no matter what happens it will be on duty and flourish next spring. also my species recta who we fondly call recta monstroso came down today, which is a first for me. i think it will respond well and be a better plant vs hanging on to the seasonal old growth all the rest of the summer. the guide i usually use besides the pruning group is wether the plant looks great or look tired and bloomed out.
had a couple of questions and some feedback that made me realize i should post caution on my type 3 pruning practices.... i think textbook would be that only integrefolia would be "to the ground" and vitacella and others left one leaf node up from the ground. many of my plants are mature and well planted, and handling of those may be different than younger plants that are not established well or planted deeply...
my practices may not be right for every garden, every gardener or every plant.....so don't take my excitement or practices as non negotiable advice that is best in all situations.
hope this makes sense and if i discover any established type 3's that do not take well to my regimen besides ppe which i discovered last year i will surely post that learning on the dg forum..as well as report the success and pics in sept form those that had mid season hard pruning.......
How does PPE do for you? I just got one from SSV and was thinking on planting it with either Margaret Hunt or Galor, but am wondering if it would be better by itself??
i love ppe. mine is huge(or was till yesterday). it is vigorous. the blooms are a dull plum. lots of blooms. it looks good with a white rose or clem in my opinion to make the color pop out more. i grow it with a species recta that blooms with small white flowers at the time, the species recta is about 6 ft tall, shorter than the ppe who comes up over it. the white and plum color are great together. a shade of lavendar such as margaret hunt would be nice with it i think but i think the galore tone on tone might not be enough contrast myself. but this is always in the eye of the be holder and what the minds eye can envision when you are planning and might be quite nice.
it is a must in a good collection. i love it.
I am also looking for what to plant with Margaret? Guru, I have been following your threads with great interest. Thank you so much! What fertilizer are you going to use on the clems you just cut back to the ground. I cut mine back yesterday. They are all just a year or two old, most of them from SSV. I heard about Gro Power, but it is not available in Washington. Are you using liquid or granular. Please advise? Thanks again. Mary
i am using granular grow power that i order from high country gardens online. i use liquid fertilizer mixed weakly from time to time in the season but for the after pruning, fall and early spring i use gro power, which i have to order and ship online as no one near here carries it is recommended by the american clem society which is where i read about it. i have used it for at least 3 years. maybe 4.
i have margaret hunt planted alone, not really with anyone else altho there are lots of clems near by. it would look great with a darer purple clem of any type i think. it is so pretty , would also look good with a ville de lyon i think if you like contrast in combos more than tone on tone. i love them all! margaret hunt is the best performing clem i have ever grown in every respect .
This is a great thread. Thanks so much ClemGuru for sharing this terrific info. I too have just cut a number of clems to the ground. (Okay, the truth is that with each plant I left one shoot with leaves up to the first node, just to make myself feel better.)
I have a few PPEs and love it too. They're still holding on to their blooms for me, many weeks after they started. I have them growing along a wall covered in chartreuse sedum, which makes a very pretty partner. May just be the palette in my garden, but I find that after staring at it for a while now I really want to see PPE with something light bluish. And also to see the tight little blooms of PPE with something more open and airy in form. Next year I'll redirect one PPE onto a trellish with Blue Angel. Looking forward to that. I'm not happy with the location of my Margaret Hunt (have it with a cerise pink climbing rose), but not sure where to move it. I have a feeling it's going to need a lot of room eventually... Right?
Guru, thank you so much. I will order the gro power. Also, thank you for your ideas. The pyramid that I have is about 8 ft tall and it gets sun until about 3:00. I have the following clems looking for a place. Which of these do you think would do the best with Margaret? Star of India, Jackmanii, Rhapsody, The President, Etoile Violette or Villa. This is trellis is right in front of my house and will be the most visulized of all my clems. Thanks again.
I planted PPE with Prince Charles this spring. He was from SSV, so bloomed in a timely manner, but the PPE was a liner and although growing very well, has not bloomed yet. In fact, I have two of them and neither has bloomed. Do you think the Prince and PPE are a good combo?
What is PPE? I got purple people eater in my mind and can't see any further?
HEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEE!!!!!! OH my stomach hurts!!!!
Purpurea Plena Elegans a plum colored, sorta rose flowered viticella!!!!
Nancy
Thanks, Nancy. Now I'm going to go look it up. No wonder it's shortened to PPE :)
I am going to call it purple people eater from now on! Love that!
I wanted a purple people eater to plant with my Austin Wildeve rose. Well, eventually I will do that. The Wildeve rose has new shoots that reach 6' tall (Austin's site/book claimed it was 3.5' x 3.5' and suitable for containers). Books and the Austin site said to cut the rose back by 1/3 in the spring. I never did that and am glad that I didn't this year. The new growth would look really freakish if I did that.
I have been trimming the new clems a bit now and them (probably not enough, I am afraid of pruning too much so end up not pruning enough - all my plants, not just clems). I don't dare take them to the ground, they just got started.
How much would people trim new liner clems just planted this year? At this point, they (3-rubro, josephine and mayleen) are growing well and filling out quite a bit. No wilting. Only problem was a broken branch on rubro, mentioned in another thread, that managed to root.
my practice with liner plants as you mention is to pinch it back to a lower set of leaves several times as it is establishing.
I cut 4 of my clems to the ground last week, and now I'm a little nervous about it. They were all SSV roots planted spring 2008 or fall 2007, except for Margaret Hunt, which I planted early this spring, and on her I did leave a few inches of green on one shoot. I'm sure they'll survive, but will they really start shooting up again and high enough to get the sun and energy they'll need for next year???
My other group 3 clems, I've just pruned back to below flowering.
I don't know what came over me; I seem to have the opposite problem as GardenQuilts -- I tend to get over eager with my pruning, and cut off more than I mean to. Same with my hair --- "Cut it all off" is my favorite thing to say in a hair salon.
wickerparker, i understand, as i am just like that, agreesive pruner, as i believe in it and i also don't like to see ratty crappy looking plants. did you fertilize since pruning? (or is it too hot in your area?)
also keep up deep watering
i have a few i am hoping i was not too agressive with. i have never had pruning damage a plant however, even if start of grow back took a little bit, the growth from doing it always exceeded my expectations.
but i understand how you feel. totally.