My clematis came up beautiful and blooming real nice and then I notice that some of the stems are dieing starting from the bottom. I don't know what happened. Hubby Say's he didn't do anything to it. But some of the leaves are turning yellow and green at the bottom.
All of a sudden it is dieing.
this happens and can be from too much water during spring rains, also can be from needing iron or magnesium.
have you been fertilizing the plant? if so how often and with what?
in some cases, clems just to do this....the plant is concentrating on the upper growth and getting ready to bloom. you can gently pinch off the most unsightly leaves , taking care not to damage the stem as you do so for a better appearance. red clems in particular will do this in the early to mid growing season. it is common.
depending on what you have been feeding with and how often you feed, you may need to give the plant magnesium and also try "ironite", which may make a difference and stop other leaves from turning, but will not restore the unsightly leaves.
also consider if it can be a powdery mildew of fungus type origin, which usually causes a greyish tinge to lower leaves, but also just causes discoloration and loss of leaf, usually on the lower portion but sometimes spreading upward and necessitating a hard prune for the plant no matter what time of year. if you suspect this may be the case, use a product like bayer three in one spray for roses, make sure there is adequate air circulation in the area (not too crowded) and also try and ground water vs sprinkle style watering, which is good habit for clem health anyway.
believe me, this is common in clems, no garden is immune to this. i am pinching off some leaves similar every day on certain clems. in most cases the plant will continue to grow , bloom and flourish in spite of these unsightly leaves.
A lot of times, Clematis die for unknown reasons. It could possibly be an aphid infestation. I would cut back the affected part and spray the vine with a Horticultural Oil. Do NOT compost the affected vine, but please throw it in the trash. If you have planted your Clematis deep enough (recommended depth is 18-24" deep), keep it well watered throughout the growing season, then new vines will develop.
Good luck and please keep us updated.
Its not just at the bottom. It is traveling all the way up the vine. The flowers are even dieing on that strand of vine.
that strand was probably bothered form the bottom by snails (slugs), see the recent thread on the forum regarding earwigs and slugs....check for vertical marks. cut the stem at teh grond and follow it up cutting it every few inches and removing the pieces till you are all the way up and it is removed. water your plant and treat with bayer rose 3 in one or similar.
probablility slug damage. green wilt or other trauma damage a possibility, but treatment the same.
snails, earwigs (they get the flower buds), fungal issues and dehydration and exhastion wilt are the biggest issues that bother clems except pressure damage or other trauma to stems.
good luck, but this happend to all of us every season, be glad it is just one stem. i have had whole plants wilt back , it is heatbreaking but usually not fatal.
It is so pretty too. I was so happy to see it grow so big and have such large blooms. Boo-Hoo.
if it is slug damage it will push up a new shoot, ot tow be right back, even better than before. fertilize it when you take the vine down, unless you are on an agressive feeding program and it just got fed within the last 10 days.
Well I did as you said. I started cutting back from the top to the bottom. As I was cutting I found that it was the whole clematis that was dieing from the bottom up. So it got cut all the way down and I put that rose 3-1 around it. I can just hope that it lives and comes back. It was so strange it was the first to come up and bloom and the first to die.
My General Sikorski seems to have died almost overnight. It's in a good bit of shade, and we had standing water close to that area for about a week, so it's possible the roots just rotted. Another one 6' away is fine.
This one said morning sun only so that is wher I planted it. Like I said it was doing great big blooms growing so tall that I told hubby next year I need to get a larger trellis. We were getting a lot of rain when it first started comming up and then the rains stoped. Maybe it died because of that and I was not watering it everyday.
general sikorski has a habit of dying back . it will re emerge. thisis the natureof the clem, at least in first 3 to 4 years.
overwater more likely to cause issues.
ok, did I misunderstand or did someone say clems should be planted 18 inches deep? That means the 'crown' where it is in the pot when I buy it, should be going down 18 inches?
?!
please explain
If I planted a clematis 18 inches deep, that would bury the whole plant that I bought this year. I do not think that is correct.
lol I bought some flimsy plants on a half dead clearance rack for $1 that was 3 years ago. This year they are blooming and gorgeous. My mom drooled over one, so I gave it to her.
But anyway, yeah they were only like 6 inches tall when I got them. I just planted them the original depth they were in the pot.
Clematis should only be planted about 2 inches deep. Some people will say 4 inches, but I doubt that 2 more inches will make a difference.
juliajayne, interesting dialouge on planting depth. mary toomey (if i remember correctly) used to say that herbaceous clems like hakuree should be planted at flat doil level, vitacellas planted deeper than soil line and large flowered types prone to wilt a couple of inches deeper. the purpose is /was that if the plant suffers wilt that there is plant material under the soil that will re sprout.
many of the modern cultivars are not as prone to wilt, but current guidance from many areas is to plant 2 to 4 inches deeper than soil line when you obtain the plant.
i follow the guideline of herbaceous at current soil level, vitacella an inch and large flowered 2 inches. i have found when i plant deeper than this that i do not has as good of results, but many many folks are planting deeper and deeper, certainly not 18 inches.
i have planted at least 400 and probably more like 500 clems over 8 years (i have many multiples, varieties are just under 300) and feel confident for my zone, my gardening stye i am panting for best results. that does vary and i encourage all to read, test and come up with what works for themselves with different types clems vs follow a mandate.
so many clems are not planted deeply enough and erosion then exposes the crown which can be harmful to the clem.
at the depth i plant at i also use a "collar" around the clem to identify the location, hold in moisture, soil, amendments and have had ever increasing success with this method.
i also think going 4 inches can lead to rotting plant material under the soil which for someplants is counterproductive. so we are kind of on the same page i think.
CG- When I first started growing clematis, I planted 4 inches deep based on comments from others, but then I read something on the subject from Wim Snoeijer a grower/hybridizer from Holland. It changed the way I plant. These are the guidelines I now follow. I got it from a different forum, so I hope it is ok to post it here:
_________________________________________________________
Same level as the pot do not plant deeply
Armandii
Atagrene
Campanella
Cirrhosa
Florida
Forsteri
Heracleifolia
montana
Tangutica
Vitalba
2,5 cm (1 inch) deeper
Integrifolia
about 5 cm (2 inches) deeper
diversifolia
Jackmanii
Texensis
Viorna
Viticella
5 - 10 cm (2-4 inches) deeper
Patens
In the beginning I did not plant deep but I must tell you that since I planted deeper the result was not better than in the beginning.
Perhaps if you lost plants have a look and think about it how you planted
_________________________________End of Wim Snoeijer comments.
It sounds like you are basically saying the same thing. I don't know where the idea of "deeper is better" came from, and 18" is ridiculous. I would like to know where that originally came from so I can challenge the person.
I started to use your collar idea. I don't have pots to cut up, so I am using landscaping edging with the rounded part right at the soil. It looks tidy, and I really like it for keeping the water from running off the surface, but I mainly did it as a barrier to keep the ground cover away from the clematis stems.
that is a more detailed outline of the basic guidelines i use.
patens bred clems are the most prone to wilt in my expereince, or wilt periodially as they establish so this makes sense.
they are the same as the guidance i got form studying mary toomey when i started in clems too.
glad to get this detail and i think it will be helpful to people.
I want to help people see that growing clematis isn't as difficult or as mysterious as they may have read somewhere.
Like you, I trust Mary Toomey's expertise and I trust Wim Snoeijer as well. If anyone is interested in who he is, here is a brief bio...
http://www.clematis.hull.ac.uk/hiviz-clemnamelink.cfm?dbkey=24
i can relate julia jane and i think we need to strive to keep zone in mind as we chat and compare and post and question.
being told clems were difficult by a gardener i respected who did not really grow clems was a prime motivation as to why i got into clems...i was told they had to be planted in a hole 6 feet deep.....i was so glad when i found out an 18 inch hole would do!
That is great to know Julia!!! Honestly.....I think I have planted ALL my clematis about 1-2 inches deeper than what they were potted....nothing deeper. However I don't have any of those fancier ones....just the normal regular 2's and mostly 3's.
Dawn, have you found that most of your clematis start growing soon after planting?
I've been meaning to ask you about your zone. Are you using the US zone or Canadian? I'm asking because most people don't know that Canada starts counting at zero, and US at one. So, if you are using the Canadian zone, that would mean that your zone is 5a to us Americans. :)
CG - any gardener who suggests that a plant needs a 6 foot hole isn't using their head. You'd need a backhoe to dig a hole that size. I've tucked clematis into smaller than 18 inch holes. I had to do that when I planted Blue Angel because I hit the edge of Etoile Violette's root mass. The soil in that area has been dug up many times in the past, so it should be fine.
juliajayne, obvoiusly i knew it was delusional, was just posting that the intrigue of that comment and myth was part of my motivation to try a few clems. that was 400 plus clems ago, i have a collection of almost 300 varieties of clematis, some in the ground with me over 8 years.
dawn, i think you are already on standard zone, as you are def not a 5 a. i am 5b, but you are snowed in when we are growing (as you know)!
Hahahaha Julia it just goes to show how much I know...I have no idea what zoning thing I have been using. Would someone be so kind as to try to help me figure it out? I live in Sudbury Ontario. I haven't had much luck researching that stuff but I will try again tonight.
Guru must be right though??
Here is Canada's zone map. I don't know where Sudbury is, but you should be able to figure it out.
http://nlwis-snite1.agr.gc.ca/plant00/index.phtml#
I read with great interest about all the work, water, fertilizer it is or is not suppose to get etc. My comment is just live it live. When I moved to WA I fell in love with Clematis so had to buy one in the small box in a big box store. I planted it in front of the climbing fence so all could see. I did nothing to it--including watering, fertilizer etc. I figured it wanted to grow in the site I had for it, it would grow. Low and behold, four years later, my son's girl's friend came in the house and said your Clematis is so pretty. I said what clematis? Sure enough, it had grown to sprite me. A few years later, I added another one which went nuts (again, no extra food or water) I over the past four years added the beautiful rose,Zephirine Drouhin to mix the three, It looks lovely. If my talent went so far as taking pictures and putting them on the wed site. You would know all it needs is left alone. I have had the original clematis for almost 19 years. What more can I say. It is lovely!!! I think sometimes people fuss to much over plants. (I do that as welll)
There are some clematis that will do fine without pampering, like the viticellas for example, and there are some that are bit more fussy and will not perform well without regular feedings.
Well cut it all back as I was told and gave it food. I do not see any life. So I am going to dig it up to see what happened to the roots.
bubba33...how right you are in some respects. funny, i have some early 1900 garden books by a british author , a series really. he is Beverly Nichols and the books are very interesting, mostly Point of view and trivia, written first person. "down the garden path" is but one of them. i find them amusing. regarding clematis he talks about them being put in and not watered and not pampered and , voila, they grow to amazing plants.
so your post reminded me of that......when conditions are right and roots take.....well, nature takes the course and there you go.....sounds beautiful and it is a nice story too. thanks for sharing.
Was happy to share--I am still amazed that it can defy all the "rules" that people have said this is the way and only way-only to have these beauties-2clematis and 1 rose - that defy what people think should be the proper way to grow plants. They have a mind of their own! (don't we all?)
yep. the textbook guidance with the groups was basically developed to take the bad rap away from clems as hard to grow.
just can't get too constrained by it. and if people are new to clems, they should put in 1's and 2's so they learn it all and those take more time anyway, why wait. unless you kill the plant there is not harm done!!!
okay - I'll admit it - when I put in the Ville de Lyon 3/4 years ago, I had no idea what I was doing. I dug little holes and stuck them in the ground. No pruning, no fertilizer - still have done nothing. Two of them look pretty good, the 3rd one isn't as large, but I think that's partly the shade. Now I can't wait to see what they might do with proper care!!!
dathan, better care might not even have made a difference, but not that you have those established they will respond well to a program. especially not letting up the late season watering in late aug or sept thinking the rain is providing enough. it is great you have a ville. i remember when mine was one stem , or a few, the blooms were always pretty but just takes some time to get a major size on.
the fastest growing clem with a colored flower for coverage (for me in my experience) and WOW is betty corning. a delightful small, blueish tulip flower....a betty corning is unsurpassed for second and third year wow.
dathen, the photo above shows the bloom well, but not the size of the plant. her is a shot that shows the scope of this plant.
Marie - I had something similar happen last year to a second year planted multi blue clematis, I just cut off the dead stuff and left it alone. I made sure to dispose of the dead stuff in the trash because I thought it was wilt. It came back and is doing great this year. If you haven't already dug it up I would just leave it and wait to see if it comes back next year. I read something about how when clematis roots are not large enough to support the top growth it will cause these types of things to happen. And that they will usually out grow their problems if the bad foliage is removed promptly. Be sure to sanitize the implements you have used so as not to spread any potential disease to other areas.
Thanks Meredith. No I have not dug it up yet. I will let it sit and see what happens. I am wondering if the roots might have gotten too wet in the area that I have it.
i frequently go in and dig to check the root mass. you may discovered it is rotted, gone (eaten by burrowing animal), or just fine. i had some mias this spring from fall planting. (chalk hill fall sale binge) i checked them this way. after another month all the ones that had not come up (about 5) i transplanted to pots so i can watch them. one is already up. the rest are not.
basically they had heaved lower than i had planted and that with the compost ltop dressing and much had put them waaaay too low, like 12 inches in some cases, so i felt i had to take action.
yesterday i checked my marmori which is not up yet. i was surprised how small the root ball was for the huge size of the plant last year....and i saw a bit of a whiteish green sprout on the root, so i quickly replanted it (i had not taken it out of the hole).
if it resprouts, i am going to treat it like a new plant and pinch prune it after it gets some inches on it....maybe last year's vigor was just too much for the root size.
marie..if it is drainage issues, it will probably be rotted. gelatinous mass. are other things in the area having, or have had, drainage issues?
I agree with digging up the roots to see what's wrong when you know a plant is dead. I do it myself too sometimes. I just think with clematis it is quite common for young plants to have problems and if it is something it can out grow - digging it up to check it will just set it back more. If there is a spot very close by that you don't mind digging a hole - you can check the drainage by filling a 2' deep hole with water and timing how long it takes to drain. One hour or less is considered good drainage. It is funny because when mine bit the dust last year I thought it was due to me watering it. It was very hot and dry for a while so I had watered it in the morning and the next day was when it started having problems. So this year to be safe, I have not watered it at all. :)
one of the things i do is have holes dug in advance and check the drainage before planting by filling and watching it drain. you can do this weeks, or even longer before a clem is planted. you wil know by comparative drain time after you start this is the hole is one who will need water more or less. very infrequently you may discover a hole you do not want to use due to drainage.
if conditions are very dry when i plant i fill the hole and let it drain, refilling it 2 or 3 times, so the surrounding area is saturated, then i plant the clem. having the surrounding area saturated is just as important as hydrating the root before planting to help the plant stay moist in the crucial first few days. this is important moisture vs all the moisture being flooded right on the clem daily.
and when you know drainage is an issue, definitely water it less often, not more sparingly at time of watering (in my opinion,) but less often.
frequent light waterings are not as good as less frequent deep waterings...this helps the clem build strong deep roots. frequent watering may keep it green but you are not really establishing the plant and building the strength it needs to flourish over the long haul. you are creating a dependent, flaccid, not as healthy as you want clem by too often small waterings vs the alternative.