Ok so this year I figured I might wait and see what happens if I allow my Group 2's to grow without pruning. I have been waiting and watching. I have all new growth on my G2's however all of it has been at the base of the plant. I have now come to the conclusion that where I am (zone 4) my clematis need to be pruned back to at least 1-2 feet.....otherwise everything else above is dead. Strange eh? I mean it doesn't bother me - they do start blooming at the end of June which is fine......but I don't think I will ever get those early spring blooms.
I went out tonight and pruned back the rest of the dead branches for my group 2's....now I just wait. I wish I had something to show you folks but the growth here has been real slow....nothing yet. Actually they haven't even started climbing anything yet.....they are just waking up now.....and starting to pull up and out of the ground.
Just wondering if anyone else in zone 4 notices this??
Zone 4 - pruning vents....
Dawn,
It isn't strange, it's our severe winters. Most of the vines won't survive the frigid temps. Sad, but true. Many of the local nurseries and garden centers that sell clematis have no idea how they really grow here. It doesn't help that many of the plant tags have vague descriptions.
I have learned that when I see a clematis, and am not sure how it will do in our climate, I hold off buying it until I can research it. The best source for information, IMO, is Mary Toomey's book: Timber Press Pocket Guide to Clematis. Most of the clematis that are widely available today are in the book. I bring the book with me when I go clematis hunting.
Here are few things to keep in mind when reading plant tags and online nursery descriptions of clematis.
Some groups 2's can be treated like group 3's. Meaning, they bloom on both old and new wood. So when you are looking at getting a particular clematis, look for bloom times that state: blooms May-June, July-August. If it states May-June, August-September, keep in mind that you probably won't see spring blooms, and early frosts and cool nights will mean you probably won't have a lot of bloom late in the season.
Some group 2's "will bloom all summer long", if you see that description, keep in mind that although some do bloom profusely, others will only bloom sporadically. This is where you will benefit greatly from doing research prior to buying.
While our choices for group 2's is limited, there are hundreds of group 3's that will bloom June-August, some even into September and are tolerant of light frosts, won't wilt, and in the long run be much less frustrating.
Group 2's, also known as group B's can be sub-catagorized as B1 and B2.
We will be mostly disappointed growing B1 clematis because their best bloom time is May-June. Group B2, those can be treated like Group 3 (aka Group C), will probably do well in our climate.
Here is a list, though incomplete, shows the B1 & B2 clematis.
http://www.homeofclematis.net/variety.htm
I forgot to mention that my comments are based on a profusion of blooms. I like my group 2's, their beauty makes up for what they lack in number of blooms.
julia, i am so glad to meet someone else that appreciates Mary Toomey. i was lucky enough to her her speak a few times, out at chalk hill in california. her lecture and slide show is beyond good. and seeing her do a pruning demo a highlight. her clematis encyclopedia (out several years before her pocket guide). was a bible for me before COTW. is till use the book frequently.
even here in zone 5, most of my type 1's will need some sort of clean up. i try to stay off the earliest largest flower bloomers such as john warren, clair de lune, duchess of e, but a damaged vine is a damaged vine. and i kind of like starting the season with a cleaned up plant, vs the old wood that does not turn green being visible all season.
dawn, i kind of do my spring pruning in stages, going out a few times a week and on some of the old vines, waiting to see if they green up and taking them off in stages to make sure i do allow the vine time to come back if undamaged. watching the plant and deciding what it is telling me and what will work for it.of course my type 3's i will do in one hard prune early in the season.
and as i have stated before, during the growing season if the plant browns off, is not blooming and looks horrible i prune it no matter what the type. alway lighter on the 1's but a dead ugly plant is a deal ugly plant. my pruning style has still allowed me to have huge plants of early bloomers like duchess of e , josphehine, claire de lune, etc.
linda beutler's books and her discuss of "freestyle pruning" are very empowering when it comes to doing what is right for your clems in your zone vs the strict textbook guidelines.
anyway , glad to meet a fellow mary t groupie. she is amazing!!!!
That was lucky, CG. I would go to one of her lectures if she ever came into the state.
I like both her and Linda's no-nonsense approach to clematis.
Thanks so much for the input. I wasn't sure if I was the only one to experience this in my zone. Like I said the clematis I do have that are 2's do very well for me. I have The President and Nelly Moser which do fabulous for me even though I mostly hard prune them in the spring. I think for me it just delays the blooms.
I do also try to stick with group 3's now. However I did recently purchase an HF young. I hope the HF young does as well as my other Group 2's.
HF Young is one of those group 2's that I just had to have. The President and Multi Blue does well for me too.
I have Fireworks - it dies back to the ground, and I have only had blooms on it one year. I hate the thought of getting rid of a clematis, but there's no point keeping it if it won't bloom.
I have multi- blue as well.....Has yours ever had double blooms? Mine hasn't....I guess due to the pruning. LOL. It does bloom nice single blooms for me though. To me it looks just like The President.
I felt that way about HF young too....I just love the colour of it! I hope it does well for me! Or else I will probably look for a group 3 to put in its place. However I am sure he will do fine for me.
Julia - here is a photo of a few of my clematis on my fence......
Another shot....
Here is my Nelly Moser and Multi-blue.
Wow! Great looking plants!
I think I confused you with someone else. I thought this was your first year growing clematis. Obviously, it's not. If I provided you earlier with information you already knew, I apologize.
Yes, I get double flowers Multi Blue. I had a good 2-3 feet of vines survive this winter so there are a lot of buds on the plants now. I gave up the single blooms last year for experiment. I get a better 2nd bloom period on Multi Blue if I don't prune it after the first flush. I actually prefer the single blooms to the doubles.
julia jayne, regarding your comment on fireworks, it is not a great clem for me either, but the blooms are so pretty. however, was going to tell you a quote i heard mary toomey make about clems that do not put forth says "that clem doesn't pay the rent" , not in regards to fireworks, jut in regards to clems that can't seem to get it right.
Dawn, you've got some award-winning blooms there! Fine, fine display! I've grown clems. for years, still struggle to understand the prunning groups. In order to understand with what belongs where, one needs individual clem's identity. I misidentify my unmarked clems. and forevermore confuse as to their required care/pruning ect. lol. For instance, I thought this was 'The President', but it could be a single blooming 'Multi-Blue'?
lily, multi blue should bloom earlier than the president.
if you pruned your multi blue it will probably not be double. on old wood it will bloom double, at least in a zone with a dormant period.
So based on your statement CG, Multi-blue will bloom both on new and old woods! That's valuable information for me. Thank you.
This is another vine that I planted couple of years past. This is its final bloom currently on this particular location. The other one is in a pot and locates in a more expose area to the back. Neither one got pruned down in years past. I just trim off dead twigs after the winter months.
Julia it is ok if you confused me with someone else. All input is great and I find I am always learning. I have been into clematis for about 4-5 years now. I am glad to have you around here though since you are in my zone as well. Our gardening would be very similar.
I'm glad to have you around too. It's nice to have someone to compare notes with.
Yes it is great to have someone to compare notes with for sure!
Here is a shot of Nelly Moser again with my multi-blue last year. They are on the fence at the back of my yard. Gosh I really need a bigger yard! LOL!!
This is pretty much the size and extent of my backyard...very small....too small.
CG - it's interesting that you didn't have good luck with Fireworks either.
I wonder if it's a zone thing, or if ours came from a bad batch.
some clems are just not good cultivars in terms of vigor. mary toomey always describes them as
"hardy but not vigorous" meaning you can't kill them but they will never do much.
the fireworks blooms are very very pretty however.
Fireworks won the RHS Award of Garden Merit in 1993, and Mary Toomey describes it as hardy and vigorous. The vines are vigorous for me, but it dies back to the ground, so I'm leaning towards it being a zone problem.
Has anyone ever put a rose cone over clematis during winter?
guess we could move them to another location, or try and other one at some point. i would if i found it locally on sale, but will not order one. i am not overly crazy over most of the bi colors except john warren of course (not really a bi color to my mind)
sometimes the rhs award and mary's viewpoint is more of a uk climate viewpoint i think.
in terms of expert opinion available here in the US, i'd go with debbie fisher, owner of silver start vinery. i will ask her about fireworks.
of course omoshiro (i have 3, 2 liner size babies and i slightly larger one i got recently) i feel differently about. so pretty and fresh looking.
carnival also very pretty , but same for me, not ultra vigorous yet. maybe this year!