When asking for an iris ID

Just wanted to chat for a bit about irises and IDing them with John Q Gardening Public/DGer friends here.

One of the problems folks get into with irises is that the very best time to sell them is when they are dormant. Which means they are not blooming. For irises, the only way to ID them is for them to bloom. Without the bloom, most look exactly to nearly identical.

there are already threads in this iris forum speaking to the problem we've had with disreputable sellers taking advantage of this foliar confusion. A plant worth a penny is sold under the name of a plant worth $20, the error is not discovered until the plant blooms, anywhere from 10 months to 3 years later, by which time the seller is long gone. That issue has been addressed already.

It's important for y'all to know that reputable growers are in this forum. Members of the American Iris Society are present here. They understand the frustration each of us has when faced with an iris blooming the wrong color, i.e., it's the wrong iris. I have over 500 irises, and I found 3 blooming in the 2007 beds that were mislabeled by a top grower. It happens. I'm super duper careful and it still happens to me with my own transplants.

Please let irisarians know if you plan on trading the iris you are asking us to help ID.

Most irisarians are extremely reluctant to help with an ID if we think you might be selling or trading the iris based on our ID.

This is the phrase I want all DGers to learn about iris: There is no way to be certain you have a particular named plant until you have purchased that named plant from a reputable grower and grow them side by side for comparison.

This message was edited May 4, 2009 1:47 PM

I am strictly an amateur iris lover and not into worrying about names but I would take the
general sentiments of the more professionals on this forum as gospel that unless you have
irises directly traceable to the hybridizer you should consider them to be noid. I have more
than my share of c _ _ _ from WM, L's, SH and MB that were of poor quality to begin with
but also were random names coupled with random pictures.

Most irises being sold today have at least a dozen "dopplegangers." They have look-alikes that will fool everyone but the iris experts. Most have at least 2 dopplegangers that are so much alike they fool the experts. To prove this, in the AIS judges training, according to irisloverdee, there is a test.

There are only a handful of truly "unique" irises by bloom color and pattern. These we KNOW when we see them for certain. But the longer an unique iris is in demand, or popular, sooner or later someone else will breed a doppleganger.

Irises in highest demand with irisarians are in the highest demand not for their bloom color or pattern. They have superior growth patterns, stronger bloomstalks, better branching, better bloom form, etc. There is no way to know this information from the photos DGers post on the iris forum, nor would most gardeners know how to judge these traits in irises.

**** The best known irises are in demand for some growth characteristic. Those irises not in high commerical demand by some are also called "compost." ****************

Doppelgangers often, in my experience, fall into this catagory.

This message was edited May 5, 2009 3:06 PM

Iris Seedlings are genetically different plants. Only the "clones," "pups," "increases" of a plant are the same plant. you can not harvest seed and grow the same iris if you start with a hybrid. (I'm not knowledgible enough on species iris to comment)

Iris seedlings are often the doppelgangers.

Iris hybridizers like to use the following numbers: only 1 seedling in 1,000 is worthy of being introduced into commerce. By my estimates, that means you'll get about 900 compost plants and 99 that will make you look twice. many of those 99 seedlings will be doppelgangers.

The best hybridizers and growers usually will not sell or release their unnamed seedlings if they "look" like doppelgangers! that's why they are compost.

But Smaller Growers (like me) don't know how much this hurts the 'business" side of growing irises. Some do sell them, to happy customers! those customers later want to trade their irises under a "name," when no name was given!



This message was edited May 4, 2009 2:05 PM

Reputable growers and hybridizers will always guarantee you get the right iris, and give you replacements or refunds. They will let you know when an iris is a NoID. we all have one somewheres that we just can't quite part with, but we have no idea what it is.

We also all have some named plants that we've mislabeled, or mixed up with others. Once I "lose" its name, I either compost it and start over, or sell it as a "landscaping" iris. I tell those buyers there's no way to ever be certain what the names are, but they are quality irises I would gladly have in my garden.

ya know, I forgot to add, irises that are popular with irisarians are not always the most popular with the general gardening public.

those universally popular irises are even more likely to get confused with their look-alikes or be sold under the wrong name! Because when the demand from all the public goes up, wholesalers who don't know irises from adam go looking for something to fill that demand. AIS estimates something like between 10% to 40% of all "packaged" irises sold through big plant vendors and big box stores are incorrectly named.

This message was edited May 5, 2009 3:11 PM

Good information, thank you for sharing this.

somehow, I misplaced the opening stats for folks to see:

The American Iris Society (www.irises.org) was formed to help promote irises but also because there was so much confusion in the marketplace over iris ID. Here's the scoop:

-There are over 10,000 registered irises in commerce world wide at this time, estimated by AIS.

-Many more are in commerce under a non-registered name.

- Still more are in commerce under the wrong registered name.

- Still more have "retired" from widespread commerce. Typically these are historic irises (introduced into commerce over 30 years ago).

Photo of Rare Treat

I'm going to invite all visiting the iris forum to add below names of irises they've bought that were mislabeled.

Lady Friend
irisloverdee is a master judge. When I told her Lady Friend was my first favorite iris, she warned me that Lady Friend had a lot of fakes being sold under that name. She warned me unless I got it from someone that got it from Ghio, chances are it was fake. the difference is the vigor. Lady Friend (mine is the correct one, purchased from Cooleys) is unbelievably vigorous. It averages 10 large increases a year for me.

Starship Enterprise
on the Internet, I believe I counted three smaller growers that have a NoID for sale that "was supposed to be Starship Enterprise and isn't." Starship Enterprise is one of those irises that most experts immediately know on sight. The fakes are never quite "there," never quite have that garden presence, that indescribable "ZING" but they all have similar coloring.

Photo of Mysterious Ways

I Recieved an Iris from a grower that I trust and still do. SHe sent me quite a bit of jewel baby which is an SDB and this grew bloomed and was Jewel Baby

However attached to this clump of about 4 rhizomes was a stranger that from the folliage was obviously not a SDB

This is the picture of what I had

3 years of searching and discovering it was either Elenor Roosevelt or Crimson King
Bought both ER bloomed early and rebloom without purple based foliage Crimson king bloomed with my unknown with exactly the same purple based foliage marking same height same flower and flower size increased were the same they were both little bunnies putting out increases.

Having done all this I sent it to some one who would know what this was. Included my known Crimson king and Unknown crimson king.
He agreed and 5 years from the time I got it I had an identification.

Of the 50 + NOPID (No Possible ID) I managed to ID 3. As I really got into iris I tossed these or in the case on unknow historics gave them to some one willing to investigate she has identified 4 in three years.

I occasionally get NOIDs but I am getting better but with My dear hubby helping there is just no way. I know 95% of what I grow in sight. the rest if it is not properly labeld is pitched.

Tough I know but I would rather the squirrels use it for their gardens than take the chance especially since I hybridize now and some times use historics I need the correct name with that iris
:)
Anita

well, that bout splains it...I have had lady friend, and she is beautiful. I bought from a co-op it is in it's 3rd season and has not multiplied well at all

well, it looks close!^_^ but, our Lady Friend produced 37 full sized and 19 smaller rhizomes in 3 years!

I cannot tell a bloom of Lady Friend from a bloom of Mulled Wine. the photos are identical... can only tell them apart by WHEN they bloom. Lady Friend is always one of the first 2 tall bearded irises to bloom here. Mulled Wine is one of the latest bloomers here.

As Anita said, once a person decides to hybridize she/he needs to know or feel sure that what they are doing the crosses with they can trace. This is WHY it is so important not to guess that it might be so and so and so and so.
If YOU truly want to know for sure to sell, trade know what you are passing on is FOR SURE what it is. Now if you just want to share with friends and family and they are not a grower or hybridizer then do so under a NOID...just as a darn pretty flower.
This is one of the reasons we have almost lost the true ones of Batik, Dandarus, Lady Friend and Caesars Brother. I know that I had LF both right and wrong...ditto with Batik(still think it was NOT) and Caesars Brother.
D

Lady Friend is difficult to start up here, once it gets growing it is fine. Remember, not all cultivars are happy everywhere.

true. that's another thing folks don't realize universally. there are a lot of hybridizers in the world. an iris might be grown in a very mild climate or a very harsh climate from seed. it might only grow well in that climate.

the folks that give out the iris awards like to think they vote for the ones that grow well in many gardens in many areas. the awards help promote the very very best to encourage us to grow the very best. Kind of a survival of the fittest.

But each grower already does that, too. an iris may be incredibly popular, but if it doesn't grow well in many places, isn't well received by the buying public, or isn't popular with the folks looking for parents of new irises, chances are it will be sold for a couple years, then disappear.

That's one reason some irises are so hard to find. the ones no one buys.........well, what was it you told me, Dee? they also make great compost?

Thank you for the info! I had no idea how close several irises were until I started trying to find names! I have several noids and it looks like they will stay that way. All I am going to do is take pictures when they bloom and add them to my blog. That way when people want to trade they have pics and I will state I can not guarantee what their names are, but you will enjoy! I never plan to sell, b/c of the reasons stated above - I would hate to sell an iris under a name and then it not be right! ; ( That has happened so often and I belive it would relive stress on me - if I just state noid. All I wanted was a type of list of names that mine are close to, so I do not order duplicates b/c some of the irises do not have pics in the plantfiles or in the Winterberry Catalogue. I also like going through other noid posts and finding what people think they are, b/c if I like it - I can then purchase and have one close to the noid. I do want to thank all that have helped me! Irises are beautiful with or without a name!!

Dana ; )

a lot of folks will accept noids. the hybridizers won't, and some picky folks won't. just mark them as tall bearded, if that's what they are.

Bonjon, Your Rare Treat and ours have different coloring! Yours look blue while ours are lavender. Ours came from Cooley's about 1997. The photo in their catalog looks purple it is so dark. I always say, one has to expect cameras to affect the coloring because of lighting.

This is the color at my place
Rare Treat

or at least I hope this is it, things have been kind of confused. I'm putting tags on all my bloom stalks so I can tell what's what. I have a beautiful blue coming up in the middle of Dynamite. Just one example. Makes good contrast as Dusky Challenger is on the other side. My new young neighbor's across the street think I'm crazy and I am...about iris.

Do you deadhead everything? Otherwise you might have a dropped seed in the middle of Dynamite. Tbs do it less often than other classes as the spaces in the interior of the flowers are getting larger.

Rare Treat LOL Happy Friday BIF's!

Bonjon, I appreciate that you started this thread -- and I'm happy (and relieved) to report that I got Lady Friend from you and Starship Enterprise directly from Schreiners.

Everything is deadheaded, I don't hybridize. When blooms start going down, I get rid of them. When we had a bad ice storm, I had broken trees and limbs everywhere, also iris everywhere, things just got stuck back in the ground as best we could. I lost 22 trees.

Now most of mine are blooming, so I may have some in two places in the same bed. Some are in there that I don't remember planting or ordering. And I keep records. So I've had happy surprises and not quite so happy ones. Will take some to our sale in July and sell in sacks for landscaping. We usually don't have photos but these will have, sometimes we know the colors, but mostly not. The ones I like, I'll keep, named or not.

Dee: You had mentioned impostor Batiks. I have a sample of my original iris purchase
which I distinctly remember coming from Oregon because of the ag certification papers.
Another I think I bought from WM to round out my 4 each of a dark bed.

Which one is considered to be correct?

Second plant. The color is a more deep blue than purple. Much as the fall in the lower
left side.

Your second photo looks more like the real Batik. The first photo doesn't have all the blotches.

Bonjon, I really don't care if I ever know the name of this little one or not. My DH found it at our local dump and brought them home several years ago. This year, the foliage and to the tip of the first bud, it is only 14" tall. I am sure it has been taller than that before in a good season. I'd just like a guess at what category it would be in, DBI or what?

Since joining DG, I am so surprised at the many named Iris and so many different size groups. As a child, I didn't really care for the purple iris, but as years went on, Mom's iris came up in yellows and whites, too. This iris reminds me of those purple iris of years gone by. As an adult, we have only grown TBI. So this one was a surprise.

NOID purple

The second Looks correct but check height, time of bloom and beard

D

Happy Mother's Day!!

Here is one of my noids that bloomed. Has a wonderful scent. Hope you enjoy!

Dana ; )

Oldgardenrose

Will you be able to share the second iris you have pictured above, the one with all the blotches? My daughters really love that one!

Thank you,
Dana

em

The are many that are like Batik, they are known as Broken Color iris.

One thing that you mine always want to really check on carefully we have found as growers that once an iris hits the Walmart or marts they usually ARE INCORRECT and that is what is happening to many of the ones being offered in marts today they are look alike but not the true named iris. If you want the true named iris, go to your iris clubs sales, support them, go to growers...

Thank you
D

I have posted before that I will be digging and giving away all my "normal" irises in order
to have room for the very old heirloom types I want to preserve. At this time, I am having
the beginnings of serious leaf spot which will probably become worse by late June when I
expect to dig. The weather has been horrendous this spring as far as rain and cool temps.
Also, I have noticed what I think is called bloom out where nearly every fan has a bloom
stalk making that rz useless for the average grower. I will know more later and will post
a statement of give away or scrap at that time. I do have some really nice no names but
sending out diseased plants is not a good idea.

Amen to the last sentance.

Oldgardenrose

I understand and it seems that a lot of iris growers are experiencing leaf spot this year. The weather never seems to cooperate! I am not to worried about names - I am going more for color. I have so many noids - that it would be a massive undertaking to get names and then as it was explained to me - you still can not be completely confident in the id. Do you have some heirlooms already or will you be looking for some?

Dana

Always looking for another sample. I have some multiples but they can be given to others.

Getting off topic but your daughters would love this. 'Gnus Flash'.

Oh they would!! ; ) Now if I could find a pink one that is blotched - my youngest would be in heaven!! I will be getting some older irises from my hubby's grandmother - noids though. If the wonderful deer did not chomp them down I would of had pics this year! ; ( I guess someone forgot to give the deer the memo that irises are supposed to be deer proof!! LOL

I've heard other folks say deer eat irises. odd - ours uproot the newly planted ones, then spit them out. something in the rhizome is toxic.

I've had deer eat the much awaited bloom. They snap off the blossom the night before it would have opened, and when I run out in the morning anticipating the blossom, it's GONE! They don't eat the leaves, just the blossom. Picky deer!