Got a Wayside catalogue today. i try and recycle these and not even look at them, however the
"clematis broughton star" on the cover of this one made it hard not peek. when i saw they had listed it as hardy to zone 5, well i had to call them to clarify what zone info they are using. zone 5 does not have hardy, blooming montanas. spoonerii (not a montana) is hardy, in that it comes back when night time temps reach the 70's, but DOES NOT BLOOM as it is not out of dormancy long enough before the solstice and decresendo of summer. i have one alive for 3 years now, and am sure of this information. it was sold to me locally, in bloom, as "hardy". that was before i knew to ask if it was reblooming hardy, or just hardy. (my spoonerii shows green mid may and has shoots by early june each year.
so after i called and asked to speak to a grower, i was put on the phone with a horticulturist. i asked him about the zone 5 listing and the trials for this and information about substantiating the hardiness rating, wether it is for re blooming or just re-growth the second year . again, told they have no info, just a guarantee. i am not interested in a guarantee for a 10$ rootlet...it is about the care, nurturing etc to discover they are publishing mis information..or have startling new info that will be very well received by many folks like myself.
so i called the president of wayside, reached him asap, and he is investigating the zone 5 claim and said he will substantiate the trials to me via phone call or e mail within a few days.
the sales desk was definitely not helpful, but lets wait and see the outcome of the president's call back to me. i will share the information. sincerely hoping for startling new information for us all.
montana broughton star , published hardiness controversy
the president of wayside already called me back and admitted it was an error ..a cover error and that broughton star is hardy only to zone 7.
can you imagine. the folks duped by this and the way the sales desk reacted when i asked to speak to a grower and then the way he responded when i asked for trail info from zone 5.....
the president, Chaz Fox, handled it well, but to have an outlandish error like this on a cover, he needs to get someone's act together.
i suggested they have a trial team in each zone and solicit real info on the ones they are selling to be void of false advertising claims.
mystery solved, an hope no one ordered it hoping it was hardy to zone 5 as printed!
I am glad you didn't order it...None of the Montana's should be tried to be grown in any zone colder than 7..they just won't survive after the first year...sowwy hon..Jeanne
well aware of the zone for montana, which is why i called to president of wayside to alert him. can't believe they would make a error like that with a cover shot. it is a beautiful cover shot however.....
actually jeanne, they CAN survive and do survive at times , jeanne, they just don't bloom.
so when nonspecialty nurseries are giving zone information that seems wrong, always good to check if hardy to survive to hardy to thrive!
Sadly enough there are some well-known Clematis vendors who still have on their websites that Alpina's (aka Alpine Clematis) etc will grow in zones 8-11... as well as the Macropetala's who's origination are Siberia, Mongolia, and China....their high temps are much cooler than people like me..so why do they say they can grow in zones 8 and up? Linda Beutler even states in her book (Gardening with Clematis )that trying to grow Montana's(The Mountain Clematis..which are native to the Himalayas, Western & Central China) in ZONE 7 is pushing it as they will eventually die..My girlfriend in Lubbock Texas which is zone 7 tried growing Montana's after falling in love with mine and she tried to grow 3 of them only to see them never come back after her winter..even at times I have been bashed by other people on forums for telling of my experiences with these varieties in my zone..I find it unconscionable on my part not to warn people so they don't get heartbroken and discouraged in trying to grow clematis..muchless waste their hard earned money..I am all for people pushing their zones in microclimates and AM the Queen of pushing..LOL..I STILL so BADLY want to grow Atragene's that I have seriously thought about ordering another one even TODAY and trying to grow it in a more shadier area of my front garden which faces North..every time I see "Jacqueline du Pre' " my heart just flutters for I want her so badly to flourish in my gardens...Jeanne
This message was edited Apr 28, 2009 8:18 AM
hopefully you have contacted the sites with info you disagree with and asked to clarify, which would lead to better info , or a better understanding of why they have the info as stated. in this case, wayside admitted it was an error and is retracting on web site, at sales desk etc. but not recalling the catalog.
i enjoy the atragenes and have added several this year to my collection.
i generally take things to the mat to understand or call it out when things are posted wrong, credited wrong or similar.
jeanne, have been thinking about your last posting here and i do not understand why you allude to credible sites posting bad zone info without specifying who they are. the purpose of the site is to share information. i have checked the sites i find VERY credible, which are silver star, brushwood and joy creek and find no misinformation as to alpinas or montanas.
i think it is disconcerting to allude to info being wrong but not spell it out, as i did with wayside.
the mis information and what action as a educated consumer you have taken if any.
if it is a lesser source who is not really a grower, what harm is there in telling people that rely on the forum for info.....if it is a credible site, then perhaps sharing the trial results they base it on, which are you right as a consumer, would be helpful to the forum.
i am thinking you must have contacted linda beutler to better understand the her info slant, so what was the outcome of that? i do not think it is fair to allude, or to slander without representing the whole picture.
thanks for listening. if the forum is to be of high quality then we must strive to make it so.
thoughts?
One thing that is important to remember is that zone 7 in Texas is very different than zone 7 in England and even on the US' east coast. Soils are different, rain fall, salts in the water, etc.
Those of us in the US who are growing clematis are testers, in a sense. All our information will help, eventually, bring clematis to the forefront of people's minds. :)
good point julia. linda beutler is from the pacific northwest......and conditions up there are very different and perfect for clematis growing.
Julia..great point...(I think sun intensity and natural dryness are points too)
CG..I am sorry you had to take this post in that direction...Jeanne
This message was edited Apr 29, 2009 10:22 AM
i think the forum deserves specific info about who is promoting the wrong zones info if this is a fact. if you know , why wouldn't you tell or get some action taken on it and report that to the forum subscribers? it is the direction that speaks to the purpose of the forum.
Isn't that what the Garden Watchdog is for?
good point carolyn, but if we mention the negative we should post it on watchdog or be specific on a regular forum posting.....
Cg...why would I lambast all those sites that have the zones wrong for people like me in "southern" zones ...even COTW (A british website designed to fit European climates), and Clematis.com
http://www.clematis.com.pl/wms/321.html&plant_number=386
list growing those in zones 8 & 9
I think Julia explained it very well...zone 8 in Seattle Washington is sooooo much different than zone 8 in Texas....most zone listings are for "Hardiness" such as a plant that can survive to sustained winters of 20..BUT they don't say when a zone is too HOT to survive or No "sustained" winter as I have..also..My sun is much more intense than say Seattle..partial shade is LIKE full sun in Ohio..my point is I think it's important to differentiate between zones from state to state or continent to continent...that was my point..sorry if my point didn't get across
ps..Carolyn..I think Gardenwatchdog is a place to report unscruplous vendors who either sell substandard plants or take your money and run...I don't think most Clematis sites are really trying to pull the wool over people's eyes..I think they just put what they've been told to put..Jeanne
This message was edited Apr 29, 2009 5:38 PM
jeanne, i don't know what your motivation or POV (point of view) would be, you would have to explain, that as you are the one who posted that "sadlly enough, there are some well known clem vendors who ....." that came from you, and i apologize if i misunderstood it. if i said "sadly enough" about anything, about any well known clem vendor, i would substantiate it to share what i knew. while i do no think "sadly enough" is lambasting,( using your word), i do think it is covertly saying that there is deliberate misinformation out there.
i respect the well known clem vendors to the max and feel your statement was cloudy.
so be it.
i find most clem experts very open to dialogue, willing to clarify and even Wayside was willing to retract a HUGE error if it is brought to their attention for resolution.
reputable clem vendors do not "pass on what they are told" they trial plants and also read trial results to make sure they are current on information and are as up to date as possible.
in the spirit of love of clematis, i suggest this be put behind us if we want to continue to enjoy the forum and the free spirited exchange of info, experiences and visuals...CLEMSHIPS if you will.