Mail order clematis question

I've ordered quite a few clematis via mail order over the last week. I noticed there is a huge difference in price of plants, size of plants and shipping charges between the different growers. For future reference, I'm wondering... does the quality of a plant that is 3.5" square versus quart-size really warrant the difference in price of $9.98 plus $3.00 shipping versus $17.98 + $10.00 shipping? How long would it take the 3.5" plant to catch up with the quart? When you multiply that difference in price times 30 plants, it REALLY adds up!

Of course, there were some other growers who were midway between these two prices and sizes... such as plants sized 5.5" square at $14.98 with a very low flat rate for shipping (no matter how many plants). I would really like to read opinions on the "best" choice when considering the total cost versus the total quality.

Thanks for any feedback. Ev =)

size of root and shipping costs are the two variables....plus how badly you want the cultivar and how hard it is to get.
as example: i ordered 2 celtic skies from michigan bulb last year, it is a new cultivar, i am assuming (not on COTW) and will look like avante garde with more green sepals i believe. paid 19$ each. michigan bulb, in my opinion not a reputable clem source, tho this was my first order with them. the roots were in 2 inch pots, but fully rooted out. i did plant them out, and they are up already this spring.
the roots could easily have been in a bigger pot and folks might have thought they were getting "more", but not really. but i would not have ben surprised if they had not come up as they were "liner" sized and probably too small to put out.
another example, i ordered omoshiro and pink parasol from heronswood this spring for a reasonable price, and reasonable shipping, but am expecting them to be small. reason i ordered, not available anywhere else. heronswood has a good name still, but under burpee's ownership much more commerical and lost the initial mission of dan hinckley. i am not expecting much.

however, my sources i stick with over the years are tried and true with BIG ROOTS and reasonable shipping. silverstar vinery and brushwood garden vines, joy creek to name 3. chalk hill (now only selling wholesale cut clems) had high shipping costs, but as they started my interest in clems i still ordered from them. they had a great selection too.

i would not order anything from anywhere that was available from what i consider to be one of my main vendors, but will order from anywhere to get what i want. does this help? i alsowould not order what was available locally.
i never check the watch dog ratings, don't even know where they are. the big places that do not specialize and may disappoint are probably easy to get refund from if you are really dissatisfied. should mention song sparrow and paradise gardens have been good to order from also.

BlissfulGarden: I've ordered from Song Sparrow in the past. They have high prices, but I've been happy with the Clematis I have received from them. I have never ordered from Paradise Gardens. Perhaps, someone can chime in.

One more website that I've ordered Clematis from is Plants Delight. Again, they have some hard to find varieties, very small selection, high prices and high shipping charges to match.

ClematisGuru: I wasn't aware that Chalk Hill was still selling Clematis at wholesale prices. How do you know what they have to offer? Didn't they take part of their website down? How many Clematis do you have to purchase to get wholesale prices? Am I correct in assuming that Chalk Hill no longer carries a wide variety of hard to find Clematis?

Thanks for the feedback. I know most of y'all probably can get Donahue's clems locally, but nobody seems to carry a good selection of them here. Their plants do come in at some of the nurseries, but the choices are limited to about 6 different clems. I've spent the last few days researching those that might make it in our area, and so I have about 30 cultivars I wanted to try. So, I placed a mail order from Donahue's. Their selection was amazing, the price is low, and the shipping cost is low. I just hope they're not too small to wither before getting established here.

BlissfulGarden:

Many, many years ago I hosted the DG Clematis Co-op from Donahue's. Yes, their prices & shipping are very reasonable. However, the root balls were small and most definitely had to be grown out for 6 months before planting in the garden. But that is NOT the reason that I don't like this Clematis Nursery. They're either very sloppy when it comes to marking their Clematis or they just don't care if their is a mix up with the label and the cultivar! You can imagine when I had 25 participants ordering about a dozen different varieties and NOT receiving what they had ordered. Most of the time you can't tell one variety from the next until they bloom. I had a lot of very upset people telling me that they did not receive what they ordered. I called Donahue's customer service and they were less than responsive. They were sold out of many of the varieties that had been ordered and therefore could not replace them immediately. I believe they offered a substitution. I wrote up a report in the Products and Services section of DG. I hope it's still there. Like I mentioned, this happened many years ago. I have read that others customers outside of the co-op members have had similar experiences! Just beware of this nursery!

Edited Note: I finally found the write-up I gave Donahue's back in 2003! It helped to refresh my memory of what took place.http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/2670/

This message was edited Apr 17, 2009 12:25 PM

Ohhh, well that's disappointing. I have to say, though, that I only ordered cultivars from them that I couldn't find elsewhere. Also, Donahue's is just about the only supplier for clems that I can find locally. It's just not a popular item here, so no local growers offer them at all. Niobe was blooming when I bought it, so at least I know it was correctly labeled!

On another note, I just received my first mail order of clems this morning... from Garden Crossings. Inside the box, they had a flier telling me to share a discount code with all my friends. With this code, you get $7 off on any purchase of $75 or more. So, if anybody has more clems to order, here's the discount code: TFDCSPR09 ... The flier says that the code expires on 5/31/2009. Happy shopping! Ev =)

chalk hill still sells CUT CLEMATIS wholesale to florists and floral designers for arrangements. no plants that i know of.

plant delight, paradise garden all a second tier choice for me as for clems. have used both. song sparrow has good plants.
but faves are silver star for size of roots, selection and innovative, green shipping method. brushwood and joy creek are mainstays for me.

I guess it comes down to the total expense for me... Perhaps the shipping is making a huge difference. Brushwood has a flat rate for shipping plus a 10% discount for ACS members.

For my first order with Garden Crossings, I purchased 6 plants plus shipping and the total was $116.95. The pots are 5.5" and there are many vines coming out. Total cost per plant for this size order is about $19.49/plant. If I ordered less plants, the price per plant goes up substantially because of their very high shipping charges.

For my first order with Brushwood, I purchased 8 plants plus shipping and the total was $117.64. The pots are 4" but there is only one central vine coming out. Total cost per plant for this size order is about $14.71. Brushwood's flat shipping fee and discount for ACS members keeps the cost per plant lower for me.

For my first order with Donahue's, I purchased 10 plants plus shipping and the total was $111.90. The pots are 3.5" and there are multiple vines coming out. Total cost per plant for this size order is about $11.19. Donahue's shipping is extremely inexpensive compared to Garden Crossings.

The plants I've ordered from Joy Creek and Silver Star haven't arrived yet, so I can't compare them to the others at this point. But, here's a visual comparison of typical plants received from the other three. Donahue's is the far left, Garden Crossings is in the center, and Brushwood is on the right.

Good information all.

BG, in your pix Niobe appears to be the smallest due to the pot size and the plant is leaning over instead of upright.. BUT when you got these out of the pot were the roots as nice as the other two?

I purchased several from Garden Crossings last year and just might have to go there and check things out so thanks for sharing the coupon code!

Thanks

Bonnie, for all of them, the roots were healthy and filled the pots completely. These aren't plants that were just stuck in a larger pot to look bigger, but have obviously been rooted in their respective pots for a while. Niobe is definitely a healthy plant and very full on top. It did not have a center support, but when held upright, it's as impressive above ground as the Garden Crossings plant. However, with the smaller root system in our hot environment, it will be more of a challenge to get enough moisture through that smaller root system to support the increased top growth. Brushwood's roots can easily support the one shoot that is on top of each of their plants, but I was diappointed because I was hoping for more than just one upward shoot for each cultivar. How quickly do new shoots come out?

I would think for a milder climate, the Donahue's plants would be an excellent value and the smaller root system would not prove to be a detriment. For more extreme climates, though, I think they will require additional protected time in pots before going into the garden. The Garden Crossings plants are most definitely superior... but are they twice as good? I really don't know!

ClematisGuru said,

Voss, I'll check that out. The reason I order so much via mail is that I like trying unusual blooms. The nurseries here all have the exact same 6 cultivars... plus a few species clematis that will eat your entire garden if you let them! I'm trying those 6 as well, but I wanted a bit more variety. I've seen some very interesting plants in the box stores over time, but they frequently seem to be whatever was left over from the north, and often things that won't grow here. They also can come in during the wrong planting season for us... for instance, delphinium arriving here in June last year. Putting it out then would have been a waste of time and money, as it would have died in a few weeks. Our heat truly hits in earnest by mid-May, so if I plant after Mother's Day, I'm losing a full month of time for roots establish without the blistering heat. I must admit, this wouldn't be as much of a problem if I wasn't a lazy gardener about repotting things! I frequently read about folks who repot everything they get mail order and nurse it a few months before adding it to the garden. I'm a "fend for yourself" kinda gal. When a plant comes in, it goes in the garden. If I don't have time to plant it right away, it sits in its original pot in the driveway for a while, praying for me to remember to water it every now and then. However, once it's in the ground and proving itself, I put forth a lot more effort.

I'm the same way with cuttings. I read about how people use wonderful sterile potting mixes and dip in disinfectants... but my cuttings just get stuck in a little Rootone and then straight into whatever dirt is available. Usually they make it... though I imagine they would get a healthier start if I made more of an effort. The only thing I've made a huge effort with in the potted stage is the bearded iris, because they are such a sentimental project for me.

I hear ya, lol.

just posted pic of my heronswood delivery on omoshiro thread...

Well, I wanted to order more from Silver Star Vinery, but the shipping is just too much. I found 7 more clematis that I wanted, and they totalled $119.00 before shipping. That seemed reasonable. But then, the shipping was going to be $44.00 for these 7. That's just... well, ridiculous. That would bring the total to $163.00... the cost would be $23.28/plant. That would possibly be understandable for a small order with a minimum shipping, but for an order over $100.00, I see no reduction in cost to ship per plant for the increased number.

Are their plants really THAT good... worth almost $25 per plant???

well, depends who you ask. for me , yes. i am collecting/ growing and also appreciate the big healthy root. the roots are like 3 or 4 yr old plants, vs the mail order roots some companies ship are like 6 month to 1 year old roots.

check out brushwood garden vines, i think he has a good shipping rate and he is in PA, and they are moving the business to GA in a year or so, so less time in transit too maybe. good folks to do business with , both silver star and brushwood....

Guru, Brushwood is part of my comparison above. They definitely have the best shipping rate of all the ones I checked and that's made the difference for me. Their plants have a good root system, but only one shoot on top. I am hoping the tops fill out soon. By comparison, they are one of the less expensive places for me to order... almost 1/2 the price for the average price per plant if I order from Silver Star. Unfortunately, for this order, they don't have the cultivars I want in stock.

Has anyone here used gardenvines?

JLP, gardenvines.com is Brushwood's web address. =)

brushwood garden vines has a good wait list system tho. click on to buy even if says out of stock and you will see a wait list option. i didn't realize that for the longest time, but i would wait list for the ones you want, you can opt out when they notify you.
some of the sites do not update till they start shipping, so i would wait list and see if that is true in this case. you might be surprised.

very good value there for sure.

Guru, I did get on the wait list for the cultivars I wanted, even if I already bought them at Donahue's (as insurance in case the small ones don't thrive here). I'm on the lists at both Brushwood and Garden Crossings. Thanks for the tip!

Oh, thanks for the clarification. I was wondering why no one was talking about them ;)

Blissful - the plants you'll be receiving from Silver Star will be hard-pruned and you won't see much top growth, but compare the root systems to the others you've received. I think you'll be very favorably impressed.

Although I'm new to ordering plants through the mail, I'd like to add that I'm also extremely pleased with both Silver Star and Brushwood. Brushwood's plants weren't as large, but still very good plants and their service was very good as well. I love doing business with Debbie at Silver Star. I'm surprised that more people haven't taken time to enter positive comments at Garden Watchdog.
I also love the clems I ordered from Dave at DG Marketplace, but his selection isn't as large. You can't beat his price, service, and plants. I just received my second order from him. They arrived here in FL from Ohio in 2 days and are already in the ground. Since I can't afford to buy all my clems from Debbie, I'm waiting to see what Tallahassee Nursery gets (no shipping), but I also plan to order more from Debbie.

I didn't know that I now get a discount with Brushwood since I joined ACS. Thanks for mentioning that.

hhhmmm, don't know i fi am getting the acs discount either.....thanks for mentioning that.

I've been very pleased with Silver Star. Debbie has such a great variety which I cannot usually find locally. Her plants are healthy and labeled correctly.

silver star is one of the best..my favorite, the biggest roots. the best shipping method. deb rules, very credible expert. no BS. pacific northwest rocks and is clem nirvana. also check out joy creek selection. roots not as big, but also good quality and selection that is out of this world.

read my new thread about false advertising by Wayside on latest catalog.

Thanks for the heads-up about Wayside, CG.

My Joy Creek order still isn't here, but I've already received multiple orders from all the other vendors. It's been 3 weeks since the Joy Creek order was placed. I sent an email last Thursday asking why I hadn't received even an acknowledgement yet, and someone from their office responded that my order was currently being pulled and I would receive an email on Friday or Monday (today) regarding what was in stock. Well, no email... still. Obviously, Friday or Monday isn't in the game plan. I'll write back again tomorrow to see what has happened with the order. I would have liked to know much earlier than this if something was not in stock and also what my shipping charges are so that I could reorder what they didn't have from someone else before our hot weather hits in earnest.

I'm still very favorably impressed with my orders from Garden Crossings. My second shipment from them was even better than the first. Two of the ones I received in the second shipment were even blooming on arrival... Baltyk and Josephine... so I could verify they were the correct cultivar before planting.

The two I received from Silver Star are looking quite happy so far. One I am bringing to the Mid-South RU for Lily_love because I accidentally ordered an alpina (which won't be happy in the ground here!), but the other is planted out and already putting out a little growth.

Donahue's are all still looking happy too, but of course, they are smaller and a bit lost in the garden!

call connie at joy creek, but no worries, they are just in the plants vs in the office! i highly recommend them, and the selection is amazing.

wayside is way off base, am really bent with their attitude. the sales people and the horticulturist (they have no grower) ggrrrrrr

hope you are pruning back those blooms as you pant those clems..think of next year vs the show you have now!

have a green one!

Yep, I shot pics and then clipped, sadly!

it is hard to do that, but you have to have a hard heart to grow a great clem!

Just wondering... does anyone know a vendor who still has 'Snow Queen' available for this year? I placed an order the first week of April for it with Joy Creek. All my other orders from every other vendor have come in, and in some cases I've even reordered from a vendor and already received the second orders as well. My Joy Creek order still has not arrived, almost a month later. I wrote to them on April 22 and asked what the hold up was... and I also asked then for a verification of which cultivars were available from my order. I received email back from Connie on April 23 saying the order was being pulled and that she would send an invoice and shipping notice as soon as the order was filled. Well, I never got a followup email from her, so today I called Connie and said I wanted to cancel my order. She then told me that my order had been shipped and should arrive today. My UPS deliveries for today have already been received, and no Joy Creek box. Hopefully they are on another truck somewhere and will arrive. However, today I finally got the requested confirmation of what was shipped via email... and no 'Snow Queen' or montana 'Tetrarose'. This is information I requested a month ago, so that I would have a hope of reordering somewhere before it was too late. Unfortunately, now it seems to be too late. I'm not that sad about 'Tetrarose' but I really wanted 'Snow Queen' after Jeanne's rave reviews of this plant. Does anyone know who has it? I've checked Brushwood, Garden Crossings and Silver Star and could not find it. Any other suggestions? Thanks for any info! Ev

Well, my order did indeed show up at my door just now. The two boxes arrived rather banged up at my door, taped up a second time with a note from UPS saying to call if anything was missing. The plants were broken, but the root systems were good. The only one that truly concerns me is montana grandiflora, which shows no signs of growth at all. The stem has no green in it. There were no broken parts within the wrapping for it either. The other montanas I received from them showed lots of growth, though it was broken off in the box... so I would have anticipated there would be at least some green in the stem of grandiflora at this point. I called Joy Creek and Connie instructed me to plant it and call back if there was no sign of green within two weeks. If at that point, nothing is growing, they will replace the plant. Sounds fair to me.

Now I just need to track down a 'Snow Queen' and my spring orders will be complete. =)

BlissfulGarden:

Glad you received your order from JoyCreek. However, I think it's appalling the condition that UPS delievered your plants/boxes in. I would notify JoyCreek immediately and let them know. It sounds like UPS was throwing their boxes around, not paying any attention to what was written on the outside of the box and could care less that it contained live plant material!

After unpacking your plants, soak all the rootballs over night in water to get them re-hydrated. Have your planting holes ready (18-24" deep), fill the holes with water and let the H2O drain into the soil. When planting your Clems, I like to place them at a 45 degree angle so that the majority of the rootball comes in contact with the soil. Back fill the hole with well amended compost, manure and soil. Top with several inches of mulch. Make a shallow well around the base of the Clematis so that the mulch is not touching the vines. Keep it watered and hopefully they will all make a terrific recovery.

BTW, which ones did you get? Please post pictures when you can.

blissful, you can get a snow queen now at Completely Clematis in ipswich mass. they have 2 sizes. i have not ordered from them in two years, but had good plants and not issues form them when i did. i only checked stock on the large size root . i think i got my avante gardes there, and they have been very successul.

ups sounds out of control here on your deliveries. i had some deliveries this week, am out of town on business trip, but hubbie did not report any issues. i will be home tomorrow morning to asses all and glad that i will be there 3 week straight with no business trips to get all the orders in ground and up and running.my ssv and donahues came in and are in ground.

do they have a 12 step for clem addicts????

CG, you aren't kidding about the need for a 12-step program for plant addiction!!! All of my clem orders (to date) are in now, and they total 75 plants. (Eek!) Shirley asked for photos... they say recognizing the problem is the first step to recovery, so here are my pics recognizing my addiction!

First, this is a pic of most of the recent orders. Some are already planted, so they didn't make the pic:

From Brushwood:

Wowser! Impressive, and I can attest to there is no cure for the addiction ^_^

This is taking a really long time for upload... I wonder what's going on with the server! It's truncated the upload, even on reduced size photos, three times now. =(

Okay, trying again. Here are many of the ones from Donahue's:

From Joy Creek (gallons in back) and Silver Star (terra cotta in front):