I am trying to find a small (preferably less than 15') tree (or large shrub that I can prune into a small tree ) for a spot in my yard. Here's the catch--it has to be able to be in the shade all day long.....except for about 2 hours of strong, hot West sun. (See why I'm having trouble?). The spot is average to dry with amended clay soil.
My thoughts: Sandcherry, Redbud (maybe one of the shorter cultivars), maybe dogwood, though I think the West sun would do it in. Anyone grown Sandcherry? Any thoughts? Help! I gotta get it planted soon, or wait until next year.
Need small tree-Sandcherry? Redbud? Dogwood?
Edgeworthia, it rocks!
http://www.plantdelights.com/Catalog/Current/Detail/02246.html
Yes, it certainly does rock, and I've got one from Plant Delights. I LOVE IT! Just had to have it when I saw it blooming in PDN's garden last Feb. Had it a year now, and its sprouting branches like crazy and had three wonderful smelling blooms that lasted at least a month, and would have lasted longer if we hadn't gotten the snow.
However....this I'm trying to fill is too dry, and gets those few hours of hot sun, which I don't think the Edgeworthia would like. Mine is planted in a spot where it gets just about an hour of mid-day sun, the rest shade, and quite a bit of moisture. Seems happy there, so I don't think it would like the other area.
Any other thoughts?
I had a weeping redbud, Lavender Twist, that was doing really well until it got hit by something. I think one of the neighborhood kids ran into it with an ATV. It's a cool little tree if you like the Dr. Seuss look. I'm going to get another.
http://www.we-du.com/detail.php?plant=TRECERCO
Dogwood should work. The native dogwoods around here do fine with some strong sun part of the time. The Japanese ones don't seem to like it here.
Yes, I've considered the Lavender Twist--still might go with it, but I'm looking more for a Dogwood or Redbud shape, if possible. Still might consider the LT though. I'm glad to know the Dogwood could take a little west sun--do you think it would need supplemental water after its established? That spot is on a mild slope, so stays pretty dry.
I see them all around here in places that I know are not watered. Some of them are in full afternoon sun too. I'll take some pictures tomorrow sense they're just starting to bloom here.
There are a number of the native dogwoods on the Old Sheldon Church property, in full sun, and there is certainly no supplimental water there.
Jenny, do you think the soil is naturally moist there? It looks like pure sand.
Funny--its almost like the way stray dogs seem to be healthier than purebreds--plants growing on their own always amaze me. I have plants in my yard that I baby and fuss over that just barely hang on, while their wild brethren grow in the worst soil, with no care, out in the woods. What comes to mind for me is a Beautyberry I have (not sure which one) that really struggled over the last few summers of drought, while the native ones I saw all the time, looking fine. Go figure...
As the crow flies, I'm less than a quarter of a mile from the Old Sheldon Church and I don't have any sand. I have quite a few dogwoods and they get nothing. Zero, zip, zilch and they're just starting to bloom their little heads off. The ones in the partial sun are much fuller regular tree looking, and the ones in full shade are much airier. They're both pretty.
I bought a cornus capitata a couple years ago- I don't think I'd recommend it for your space, it's kind of a rank looking shrubby thing, but I can't wait for it to bloom and set fruit!
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?stat=BROWSE&query_src=photos_flora_sci&where-genre=Plant&where-taxon=Cornus+capitata&title_tag=Cornus+capitata
That looks really cool--are the fruit edible? They look a little like lychee fruit.
I like that Cornus capitata. Hmmmm. I have a spot that gets sun from about 2 to dark, that dogwood okay with sun??? Plant files say full sun but thats always relative to where you are on the planet.
Okay, Cornus capitata seems not to be an easy tree to get your hands on. Where did you find that?
I think Id vote for the dogwood at this point - my mom has one in a spot that only gets about an hour of sun, though this year it is getting more due to the loss of a cedar nearby but I know it has survived no water, little care if any and deer walking around it... Good Luck Yote! I am sure you will find a good fit for that spot!
Pomegranate -
fringe tree
cryptomeria - black dragon
all are good for dry locations
All three are very attractive in different ways. I have had first two growing in full sun and in shade (I can't remember if the pomegranate actually made fruit while in the shade ..but to me although the flowers/color is gorgeous --- I don't like the fruit so much..it looks sort of brown.) The black dragon always in partial shade here - it is a slow grower so I would get near the size you want. Beautiful in bloom.
Also, I have a big leaf holly and it does great in shade --edge of woods so not sure about exactly how much water it gets --but I don't give it any.
Good suggestions--yes, I'd thought about Fringe tree, but I'm not too familiar with it--have to do some research. I love Pomegranite, but didn't think it would stand the dryness. Guess I was wrong, so I will reconsider that. And I hadn't even thought about Cryptomeria...Thank you! PS Is a Big Leaf Holly the same as what I think of as a native holly?
Edited to say that I forgot what Cryptomeria is until I looked it up. I'm ruling it out because I have quite a few similar trees already, and I'm looking for more of a horizontal canopy.
This message was edited Mar 12, 2009 6:33 PM
I don't know... I only know I went to Broadwells (famous as you know for NO labels and thought I had two small camillas!!!!) HA! but they never bloomed and I blamed the deer... but I couldn't understand why they left the leaves --I know they love the leaves...then it bloomed !! green beautiful little things... and I learned it was the holly - shiny green and healthy!
I think the pomegrante and fringe and I think even the crypto listed as xeriscape
My pomegranate beautiful but would not say horizontal canopy.
too bad you couldn't get a river birch to stay that small... it is so beautiful with the peeling bark and that horiz canopy you want.
I agree---those river birch would look so great there! They were one of the first trees I looked up, as I wasn't sure of height for them. Too bad. My concern with the larger trees--aside from height--is mainly the root competition, as there are several large pine trees close by. I seem to recall that either the Redbud or Dogwood has a long tap root, instead of lots of surface roots, which might compete with other things. Anyone know?
the fragrance of the fringe is heavenly
I have a star magnolia (2) got them at broadwells along with a tulip magnolia.. the star will grow to about twelve feet. right now both star are starting to bloom -end of winter bloom. the flowers are not the full petals but they look shredded... no leaves on the branches. Very fragrant. very pretty. I watered both last when I put them in...maybe three times..other than that relied on the rain. It will be mostly shaded in that area once the trees fill in. They will get two maybe three hours or so of west sun this summer. It will only be their first full summer so time will tell, but I think both will be fine. I am waiting to see what the tulip magnolia will do --so far nothing.. which bothers me because when I bought all three all were in bloom together...they stayed in pots until I could plant (months)
edited to make sense!
This message was edited Mar 12, 2009 7:06 PM
If your concern with a larger tree like the river birch is root competition and you think that the birch will look good there.... GO FOR IT. I was pretty green once and planted 6 in the 'woods'.... NO issues. They will do just fine with the pine (and in my case the pain in the tush tulip trees as well as oaks and maples..) be aware ..in mostly shade the birch will grow slowly - so get a size you like. Of the 6 bought --three went in the woods edge with sun few hours day/ one now 30 feet high and the other two I took out (I planted them on TOP of each other just about) and the other three in the shade in the woods.. two are about 16-17 feet and one is still at maybe 6. All are peeling etc. and healthy but definitely slow to grow in the shade. (got at broadwells for 6 dollars each ---maybe 4-5 feet tall and that was in 2001)
Maybe your big leafed holly is the Ilex latifolia. I have several but mine grow slowly in partial shade.
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/1676
This message was edited Mar 12, 2009 10:02 PM
What do you think. This is as close as I could crop to the leaves. It has not been pruned to show the central truck out there at the edge of the woods.
Hmmmm, not sure without some more perspective. The leaves on my I. latifolia are about 5" long.
Ardesia, the latifolia looks beautiful--wonder why its not offered more? Probably because of the slow growth.
Thanks for all your insight, missingrosie--love your advice, since you are in my neck of the woods, so what works for you should work for me (famous last words!).
Seeing the talk on the native holly made me wonder about a small tree I always call native laurel. Not sure if that is what it really is, but it has laurel-like leaves, black berries, an upright, open growth habit (shrub-like at first, then has a true trunk later). Unusual white flowers right now, that aren't really flowers but appear to function as flowers. Birds eat the berries towards the end of winter, so they must not be extremely tasty. Very prolific reseeder, and, I suspect, fairly invasive, but quite pretty. I have them all around my house, which I like, because they are evergreen so give privacy.
Edited to say here it is--found it in Plantfiles, http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/57865/
This message was edited Mar 13, 2009 12:54 PM
I've seen that and wondered what it was. But I don't think I saw it with the main trunk --more shrub like.
Ardesia - can't tell it from my photo which was cropped cropped cropped to get close to the leaves ---but the leaves on this holly are 5 inches or near or longer on this one.
This may be a better pic. NC State says it is a rapid grower; that has not been my experience but I still love this one. Definitely underused.
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/factsheets/trees-new/ilex_latifolia.html
Wrapping up this thread...As with many things in life, sometimes decisions are made in a snap, based on circumstances. This one was not made in a snap initially (thanks for all the input), but in the end, circumstances dictated the answer. And so, I present to you, my new, baby Dogwood--purchased because it was very cheap, and very, very well-shaped and healthy. Ta Da!
Congrats on the new arrival!!!
Thank you Missingrosie...I'll be accepting congratulatory gifts from any of you who'd like to share in the joy of my new arrival. No shopping required--just send cash or check to: Yotedog, Raleigh, NC. Really, the tree WANTS me to have these gifts, I swear!
And you SHOULD have them -- but it should be on the traditional 18th birthday of the new arrival. By then we should know if the check should drawn on pink or blue background.... (I know...I know.....you want green!!)
Yep....green for St Patty's day! Its finally stopped raining, and to celebrate, He or She is going in the ground TODAY.
you will have some wet digging!! I bet that tree is going to look beautiful. Is it white or pink?
It was wet digging, but not too bad as its a fairly dry site, and its in, and its white, and I can't wait to see it bloom! Thanks everybody, since no one is sending cash baby gifts, I'll close the thread now!
Very funny, yotedog;> Pretty new arrival though! Perhaps we should just send onesies, lol!
My baby is a bit tall for traditional onesies--you better just send money for me to buy them so I can make sure they'll fit......How are your little Gaillardia babies doing? Shall I send money for their college fund?
So far, so good on my newly adopted babies:-) I took advantage of a little sun today to weed a hopefully suitable spot for them. Maybe this weekend will be their time to fly from the nest. And yes, send big bucks, lol! College ain't gettin' any cheaper!
Glad to hear it, Tgg! More where those came from if they croak.
Ok, now I'm really going to close this thread, but I can't figure out how to put 'CLOSED' on the thread subject line. Someone, please enlighten me..