"Stitch In Time"

Anybody have this? I't s kinda pricey but I'm thinking of taking the plunge and ordering it anyway.

Snapple, Xulting has it and it is beautiful. BEV

Ah, thank you. I'll take another look at Xulting's pics. I'll probably go ahead and get it. But, yowsa, it's a plant list budget buster.

I know. I have to wait on that one. I have orderd enough but want more!!! BEV

I went to a talk last year and a top hybridizer said don't get it - Solberg. A picture of it came up on Zilis' slideshow this past weekend and hubby leaned over and said "We should get that one." I explained to him afterwards what Solberg said about 'Stitch in Time' but I'm still on the fence whether I will buy one or not.

ic_conifers, what did Zilis say about it? I have it and like it a lot. I love the gold shiny leaf. I would like to have it in my hybrid program but it's patented, so I can't use it. I can't stop it from open pollenating though. Jim

My hubby and I had a lot talk about plant patents the other day - we're both attorneys. Neither of us think the rush to patent will pay off for those who went that route, but that is a long story.

He said he has seen quite a few of them starting to look bad - I cannot remember if it comes down to the source you get it from or what. I still think it is a really cool plant but it does make me more cautious. If I see one when I'm out buying from nurseries in the summer I'll still probably get one.

Well, it's too late for me! I ordered directly from the hybridizer "Shade Gardens". With the exception of 'Tatoo' I have no problems growing any hosta. ("Tatoo" is just plain recalcitrant. In three years time it's a whopping 9" across.) So, if 'Stitch In Time' turns out to be problematic it will be a problematic cultivar, not a cultural problem. I also ordered 'Striptease'. I have no willpower - zip, nada, none.

Snapple, I'm so happy you ordered more hostas!!!!

Zilis was the one in favor of 'Stitch in Time' whereas Solberg was against it. I think Solberg's remarks were to the effect that it doesn't keep that "stitching" look. I just can't remember that well now. Others here were at that lecture so maybe someone else can weigh in.

Ooooo - So it's everybody's $$$$ to take part in an experiment!? LOL I'm up for it! Somebody around here suggested I look at their DG journal/blog. After that I wound up ordering Empress Wu, Liberty, June and Shimmy Shake. When I said I had no willpower it was no exageration!

Willpower is overrated.

Jim

You certainly can use this or any other patented plant for hybridizing. You CAN NOT clone it (ie tissue culture it), You may use the pollen and the stigma as you would any other plant YOU own.

Gary

Gary, I'm not so sure of that. If you breed something and try to register it as offspring of a patented plant, there might still be royalties issues since the parent was patented.

Eliozabeth

Patents were fairly common in orchids. The same rules would apply. You may use the plant for sexual propagation. For example Jim mentioned if it were open pollenated it would be acceptable. The patentee merely owns the rights to that particular clone. If it were to produce a sport that patentee would have no claim to the sport. Thw person owning thw sport could patent the sport and son on.

Gary

One might still be opening themself up to liability. I'll stop commenting on the patent issue now, intellectual property is not my area of practice.

I think you will find that patented plants are used for sexual propagation day in and day out. I would have no worries about using its pollen or stigma.

Gary

Elizabeth

I just looked up plant patents on line. It states that natural or intentional sexual propagation is allowed. Orchids have as I stated been patented in the past. We talk about expensive hostas but as much as $10,000 was paid for a lady slipper hybrid. when $10,000 was a lot of money.

Gary

Patents are expensive to acquire - minimum $5,000 - and then they are even more expensive to litigate to enforce. For attorneys, there is a separate bar to pass to practice patent law. There are difficult requirements, beyond a law school degree, even just to sit for the patent bar.

I think orchids are gorgeous, but orchid people are a little crazy in some of the prices they are willing to pay! I guess the same can be said about the high end of any hobby - koi fish can sell for several hundred thousand dollars. People pay millions of dollars for yearling Thoroughbred horses on the hopes that they will win races.

With all that sad, I think it is a bit ridiculous to patent plants. I understand that people want to protect their creation, but sheesh, I read the "warning" on 'Silver Threads and Golden Needles' when I bought it last year (it is a patented hosta) and couldn't stop laughing.

When $10,000 WAS a lot of money?

This message was edited Feb 11, 2009 5:22 PM

You most certanly can use any patented plant for hybridizing. You can not legally divide it for yourself thats right you are suppose to keep it as one plant per purchase, but most importantly you can not divide or tc it to give or sell to anyone. The main purpose of the patent is more for nurseries not to propagate the plant to sell without the patent holder getting thier cut. Really not a bad thing as most hybridizers get squat for all their work, think about it how many times you have gifted or sold a piece of a plant to someone, the hybridizer gets nothing for that, just like pirating music or movies. I seriously don't think the plant police will be knocking on any of our doors but to be fair to the patent holder we should follow the law.

Now the deal with 'Stitch in Time' is they are turning solid green or yellow and doing it fast. Nurseries are ending up with all green or yellow plants in big numbers. One of the big downsides to TCing of plants especially new intros. None are grown very long before they are rushed to sell. Does anyone besides Rob Mortko have a mature 'Stitch in Time'?, no because there is none. The TC's are only a couple of years old now and you need to grow them atleast 5+ yrs before they will be. Will they all be bad? only time will tell but it is a little pricey to find out the hard way.

How many folks got a 'Clovelly' last year and it actually looked like 'Clovelly' even after growing a season? They might this year.....might!

Jeff

jumping in here....
so how does one know if it's patented or not?
I've been to many nursery's that sell hostas that "look" like divisions. Don't know if they are or not. ...just sayin
Are they not supposed to be doing that? And what if I bought one? How are we really to know the difference?

Well, that's depressing news about 'Stitch In Time'. I got mine two years ago. Sounds like I'd better get lots of pictures of it so I can remember how pretty it was....

I've been looking at a lot of pics from google, and man .... they're all different! What's the deal? For 50 bucks or something, I don't think so.

Ok I have bought a few PPF's, PP17 or what ever and I have divided them or gave it away. I just bought Ron's new Alakazaam and already promised a piece to someone. lol What about FF Rose Red and Snake Eyes? Anyway ... can I go to jail? :)
I bought just Stitch in Time last summer ... I thought i had waited long enough to try it out ... just hope it shows up.

This message was edited Feb 11, 2009 9:48 PM

Jim

You talked of a shiny yellow leaf. Have you seen or do you own hosta Jaz? It looks like a piece of yellow plastic. Mine was new last year. Didn't get to see blooms so I don't know if it is fertile or not, but it is quite amazing.

Gary

About hosta 'Jaz'. What is the best lighting to maintain the leaf color?

Thanks Jeff for jumping in, I knew there was something wrong with SIT and could not remember what it was and it was bothering me so much!

I completely understand people wanting to protect their investment - but with hostas in particular I cannot imagine how patents could be enforced. I acquired all of my plants legally but I don't save receipts and I don't save the original tags. With some work on my bank's part I could produce check stubs or whatever from various nurseries but if someone came in my yard and demanded that, I would get very hot under the collar.

Here is an article written by Mark Zilis on hosta patents, it is very informative:
http://www.soghs.org/SOGHS_2009_Feb__newsletter%5B1%5D.pdf

ic - This same discussion was had on DG about Hemerocallis a couple of years back and got so heated and nasty that Admin. shut it down. Someone identifying themselves as "a hybridizer" entered the discussion. This hybridizer did emphatically promote the enforcement of the patent to, as what I think legal beagles call it, the four corners of the contract to wit - A patented daylilly should not be dividided - ever, even to increase it for the original purchaser.

I'm just kinda sorry I went ahead and ordered 'Stich in Time' so quickly without waiting for experienced advice. I shoulda known! I'm going to try to have fun with it and pretend it might not appear some spring as something different.

Having read the Zilis article here's what I think those who patent any plant need to consider in terms of the average consumer or gardener. Try placing noticeable, plain, unambigious language at the point of sale to inform the consumer that if you purchase this patented plant it should be maintained as a specimen plant only. That you as a gardener, once you take it home, can not divide it or share it with any one else. What then do you think would happen to their sales? Some would purchase, more than a few would not.

At this moment in time the vast majority of gardeners only see PP followed by a number or PPAF on the tag, if they read the tag at all. They have no idea what that really represents. There is a matter of intent. If the purchaser doesn't know the law can they form the intent to break it? Why do the hybridizers keep the patent information obscured from the consumer?

thanks everyone for your input, I'm learning something everyday on Daves, it's great to share all this information, Jim

I'm sure glad I don't have to navigate the legal thicket as a hybridizer. I have new found respect for those who do continue to bring new plants into the market for gardeners to enjoy.

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for patent infringement. There is a misunderstanding among the general public that you need to know the law to break it, that is simply not true except for crimes and torts that have a specific intent requirement - i.e. intent is written into the law itself as criteria for prosecution (criminal) or tort liability (civil).

If you have a license agreement with the patent owner, you can sell divisions provided that a royalty payment is provided to that person. From Zilis' article, it look like the average range for royalties on patented hostas is ten cents to a dollar per plant. I can't believe how low that is, since patented plants tend to be so much more expensive that their non or expired patent brethren.

I wish I had a $1.00 for every case our local prosecutor has refused to take because of "lack of intent". I'm in criminal court ( felony and misdemeanor) a lot for business reasons. It seems to be used arbitrarily. But hey, even if I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night I don't know jack about the law. That should be obvious. ;)

I bought a Stitch in Time last summer because I thought it was an awesome plant. Hopefully it will continue to be an awesome plant. If not, it won't be the first hosta that I've owned that decided to revert (or whatever) after a season or two in my garden. I am fully convinced that the likelyhood of a streaked hosta turning solid green is in direct proportion to the amount that I paid for it. I have no doubt that the same may be true for Stitch in Time......FYI, I also bought Clovelly last year......what a glutton for punishment.

Both hostas were part of a group purchase through my local Hosta Society. We should have great fun comparing what we have this summer.

They are just plants, and sometimes bad things happen to good plants. Winter Kill, the neighbor's dog, squirrels, deer, hail....the list goes on. There are so many dangers lurking out there, it's a wonder we all are not nervous wrecks from spring through autumn.

Me too with the Stitch in Time and Clovelly purchase last year. Hmmm....

This is a very informative thread.

Sandy

I learned, to my dismay, that there is no guarantee that any TC will remain true. Anyone know how prevelant this "lack of trueness" for want of a better term is, in the TC business? It must apply to all herbaceous perennials but I've never heard of this problem cropping up with something like, say, a Sedum or an Echineacea. Is it most prevelant in hostas? And while I'm at it here, is it only TC? What of hosta by division from the original hybridized plant? Maybe these things should be handled in a similar fashion to choosing a purebred pup. You want to see the "mother" plant? Yeah, that'll work! I'm just having a melt down with having blown the budget on a pricey hosta that I might not have jack to show for. When your ignorant it can cost you.

So should I cross 'Clovelly' off my list? Drat...I really want that one.

Well 'Clovelly' very well should come around after a year or two of growing, I will see what mine looks like this year. My main point with 'Clovelly' is that it was a completely new plant for the market last year, it was the biggest selling hosta of 2008, it is a patented plant, and I looked at a lot of them at many different nurseries and they all looked pretty much the same....not very 'Clovelly'.....yet anyway. See the nurseries get the big rush to sell, sell, sell, and we alll want to buy, buy, buy the newest plants. 'Clovelly' is a great looking plant and one everyone should have but without anyone ever growing out to maturity any of the TCed plants yet, just what are they going to look like.

When you purchase a hosta that is patented it will come with a plant tag that says it is, otherwise the seller is breaking the law. Legally the correct tag is to be kept with the plant it goes with. till the patent expires. For the home gardener/collector not much of a problem really. I just keep mine in a stack in a cabnet as I don't like them in the garden. I do want to follow the law and respect the patent holder's right to their share. Otherwise it is plan and simple stealing, just like pirating music or DVD's ect... thats the law.

But like I said previously the patent is mostly for the holder to collect a payment from the nursery's/ garden centers that sell them otherwise they don't get squat. I don't think the plant police are going to go from garden to garden to check for tags, but they could I guess. Like everything obey the law and not to worry.

There is a list of patented hosta on HostaLibrary. Click on the COMMERCIALIZATION link.
There is also a list in the registration book that came with the last Hosta Journal.
I don't know if they are complete lists or not, but it's a start!

Kit

There was also a list of patented plants in the link I posted.

Good thinking Jeff, I could just stick the tags in a ziplock envelope and keep it in a drawer. Duh to me.

I purchased 'SIT' this past Spring. The two guys I bought it from are really cool. I don't want to mention their names, but I think everyone on this forum has bought/still buys from them. I potted my 'SIT' up, like I do with most of my newer/newest purchases and wait until they put on some growth before I place them in my garden beds. On a very rare occasion, if I get a hosta that is very small, I will leave it potted up, overwinter it, and place it in the garden beds the following year. Anyhow, in relation to my 'SIT,' it was immediately potted up, it was small, it was purchased from these 2 very good vendors along with 5 other hostas. It just sat their in the pot, and sat there, and sat there....and sat there. It really didn't do anything. I think I purchases hostas all season long, purchases from a few individual hybridizers, along with a co-op, and several auctions...still 'SIT' did nothing. No new growth, a little root development, but other than that, nothing. I also purchased 'Mango Tango,' which is supposed to be the "reverse" of 'SIT' but I believe it's the reverse ONLY in the coloring of the leaf...I believe 'SIT' has a different ploidy than 'MT.' I ended up planting 'SIT' in the bed between 2 pieces of 'MT,' I thought that would be a good look. I spoke with 1 of the guys were I bought my 'SIT' from and explained my concern that the hosta failed to thrive at all. He made a few suggestions, and still, nothing. IMHO it has, thus far, been the poorest and weakest hosta that I have purchased. I do not want a replacement IF it doesn't come back, I will gladly (and have already been told I can get a credit for it) take the credit this coming year. I don't know if I just got a bad one out of TC or what...but my initial view on this hosta isn't very favorable. I just have over 100 or so hostas, and have been growing them for just shy of 10 years, so I consider myself versed in hostas, not well versed, but versed...'SIT' definitely did not start out well, and I think it most likely withered and died in the bed it was planted in, especially since all of it's neighboring hostas grew like gang busters. The particular bed that 'SIT' was planted in, almost all other hostas in this bed were purchased from these very wonderful plantsman. Again, this was my first view/owning of 'SIT,' I have never seen this plant anywhere else, but my first impressions with it are definitely not positive by any stretch of the imagination. I hope I don't sour anyone elses hopes of purchasing this plant. The reason I initially wanted it was that I thought it was a stunning hosta, I still do, I just had no luck with it really.
~Thom