where do our seeds come from ?

http://www.countrysidemag.com/issues/90/90-2/Jerri_Cook.html
very intresting reading

Impressive article.
Although I have hybrids in my garden, I very much like to grow plants that are seldom found in a nursery or seed catalogue. I have traded seeds from native plants and heirlooms from all over Europe and the US the last 5 months. I prefer these ones because they allways come true and the vegetables and herbs have a much better taste than the hybrids. Although I will not exclude hybrids, I hope to have only 5-10% hybrids in my garden in a few years. As stated in the article, there are so many nice unknown plants.

How very very interesting. There are a couple under that umbrella that if I knew they were there I wouldn't buy from. Just another bunch hiding behind a lot of names. I try to keep seeds of all things I grow or get them from a nice gardener on this site.

I prefer to grow seed that I have traded for when it comes to Veggies.... I do buy Trop and Sub-Trop plants now and again.. and will grow out new crosses and hand pollenate my own... Interesting article..Thanks
Kylie

It's definitely good to know what you're getting & whom you're getting it from, but I think the GM issue is a wholly separate one. I don't really see what's wrong with genetic engineering, fundamentally, or transnational companies for that matter. Oh well.

Sounds so much like Big Government--slowly taking away our freedom of choice. Thank the good Lord for businesses like Seed Savers. And DG where we can trade seeds!

How would they ever enforce it?

Well, I think I can tell you how they enforce it.
I hope you understand my story, because english is not my motherlanguage.
I offered seeds on the internet that proved to be patented (I really did not know about patents before).
I got a telephone call from a man of the 'Patent office' , they would sue me if I didn't remove my offer. We had a long talk. He treated me like a criminal. I tried to calm him down, because I really was not aware of my 'crime'. He told me he was looking all over the internet to search for people offering patented seeds or plants.
Here in Europe, no judge will convict you for a lot of money if you are a private person, in these cases. But you'll have to pay the costs of trial. I removed the seed offer immidiately. I still offer this seeds, but without the patented name.
In the US I think the risk is greater to be convicted for these things. Well, at least that is what we read here in the papers.
Now I mostly offer the seeds that I have from a few patented plants, whithout the patented name. If I see someone is asking for seeds of a patented plant, I will d-mail him or her, that's private.
It is not only because of this experience that I prefer to grow non patented plants. Just as stated in the article that Tazzy posted, there are so many plants that are unknown.
I decided last autumn to prefer 'real' plants

If you were selling seeds or plants I could see you getting into trouble some where along the way. Now that I think about it, rose and hibiscus growers will have a problem with you pretty quickly if advertise one of their patented plants. Even if you're just trading a few plants.

tazzy, thanks for the link. Knowledge is power :-)

FYI: Last spring, I was given information to the effect that Johnny Seed (Select) Company out of Virginia is the only place to get seeds that have not been genetically altered in any way and are true, open pollinated seeds.

And....Johnny Seed Co. is an employee owned company.

Baker Creek is the same way - they only have good seed and push against anything genetically changed.

Oof. I just ordered a few types of seed from one of the outfits mentioned in that article...... though everything I ordered was labeled heirloom/OP -- now I kind of wonder.

Good info, thanks for posting it. I had known a lot of that about Monsanto but not the extent of their reach into seed companies.

Kyla

Does anyone know if pine tree seeds are genetically altered? I have ordered from them many times. I love the heirloom varieties.

That article was awesome. I had no idea all of that was connected.

Linda

Thanks so much for this info. I ordered from Baker Creek. I gave my Burpee catalog to a friend but I will give her this info and let her order from my Baker Creek catalog.

I have been ordering from Gurneys, Springhill, Garden Solutions, Michigan Bulb Co., etc Group for awhile. I get ALL of their catalogs ever since I ordered my first order from SpringHill. If you look at the catalogs, you can tell the plants are all the same, from the same source, even though they may call them slightly different names. I try to buy wildtypes, nonhybrids because I like to know that the seed will be true to type and viable, and I can grow more if I want without infringing on anyones patent.
This coming from a scientist who once worked on developing a GMO strain for USDA as a 'collaboration' with a very large private company. Just to be clear, hybrid does not mean genetically modified. Hybrid just means you've crossed two different plant species which usually results in a sterile plant. What we were doing was genetically altering the plant to produce favorable characteristics and then genetically altering them again to make them sterile WHEN WE WANTED THEM TO BE STERILE. In other words, we could grow those plants and produce more seed, then treat them with a chemical that would make the resulting plant unable to produce viable seed, and then we would sell you those treated seeds. So you will buy your seed from the company, grow your plant that you paid for, but then your plant will be sterile and you will be UNABLE to grow more of that plant from seed. This is not a real big deal for individuals growing on a small scale. You could even propagate your plants from cuttings (secretly of course so you don't get sued) and still get more plants. But the technology is a big deal for the cotton, wheat, corn, etc. producers. Those who buy LOTS of seed and can't propagate their next crop from cuttings. Those very large consumers will be forced to rely on someone supplying their seed every year. Now you might say that they could just use a wildtype. But a genetically modified crop that is more productive, heat and drought resistant (use less water is a seller), better tasting, disease resistant, whatever, is going to make that farmer's GMO crop more productive, more profitable and more competitive in the market.
Do I think this is right? Well different sides to look at the situation from. One argument for making GMO crops sterile when released to the public is to keep GMOs from crossing with and possibly eventually replacing wildtypes. If the GMO has been modified to be resistant to disease, drought tolerant, etc. this is quite possible. This was one 'angle' I got from USDA. The other argument 'for' is that it protects the investment of the seed producer who spent millions of dollars to find and use the technology and produce these "better' seeds for the consumer. Another view, the one you guys are seeing, is that it makes the consumer, at all levels big and small, dependent on the seed producer for its seed which is of course more expensive because of all the investment put into it. And the plants that produce the most, use the least resources, are disease resistant, etc. are always the plants that most people buy.
My husband worked on several projects for Monsanto. Beleive me that Monsanto is huge, way bigger than most people know. If your growing a plant, Monsanto probably has something to do with the plant, the weed preventers, or fertilizer, or something that you use to have that plant.
After working on the projects, I no longer support the rampant production of GMOs. But I think we have reached a point where its too late to turn back now. Its business, supply and demand. The consumer demands and the supplier provides. If the consumers would stop buying this crap ("just say no"), noone would be making it.
I chose science as a career because I wanted to contribute to knowledge and improve the quality of life for people. Science in itself is a nobile pursuit; but when you bring business into it (as I have also seen in my career in pharmaceuticals) the nobility goes right down the drain. Very sad and makes me very angry. All of that greed and selfishness and lack of foresight (hello, lets think long term consequences on the planet and peoples lives) has no place in science. Too late though, way too late.

Remarkable aard!! It is a shame that we have come to see the day when a plant that grew from the mother earth has a "patent" on it!! Genetically altered means just that, some chemist altered the natural seed and then claimed it as their own!! Yes, greed comes to mind and so does total arrogant disrespect. Remarkable! The same goes for pharmaceuticals, since they cannot actually patent a cure made by nature, they simply make some chemical after study of the natural element and sell it as a drug! Now everyone is on drugs and the legal drug pushers are putting messages out there that somehow we need their drugs! So next I guess they will be taking the "patented" seeds to grow nature's healers so they can sell them. It is a disgusting thought. The body can heal itself and I will hope, beyond hope that the earth will be able to heal too.

Oh my, the old phrase comes to mind "Don't get me started" or is it "Somebody stop me". Breath.............

That is why I enjoy DG, a place where there are people of like mind that want to do their part, no matter how small, to nurture our most sacred mother earth and be kind to her. I will keep the FAITH and have HOPE. Walk softly.

Exactly what has happened to the Neem tree, in India,...I believe.
A specific compound extracted from this tree has been "patented" by a company (I think it's W.R. Grace?) - which means that the people of India may have to pay "royalties" for the use of this plant (doesn't matter that generations have known about and have been using this plant for hundreds of years - in various ways)

Google Neem tree or Ghandi's tree and you should be able to discover
the specifics - I think I am correct with the facts

I'm not sure about the Neem tree, but I know that this type of thing happens ALL the time! Think of all the plant products that are incorporated into your cosmetics, body washes, shampoos, lotions, etc. Also plants are used to generate human and animal proteins for use in consumer products (including those mentioned above and some pharmaceuticals). I can't disclose names but a pharmaceutical company I once worked for owned a company that had a patented 'method' that basically involved putting human proteins (the gene sequences) in a plant 'host' line, the plant then producing the protein, extracting the protein from the plant cells, and then this protein is used in a prescription pharmaceutical product to do its thing. The TECHNIQUE is patented to produce what nature produces in human beings naturally. Science is now a big patent factory. That is why I get so disgusted with it now. You try to go into a field to make a positive difference in peoples lives, alleviate disease and suffering and all that, and some business folks come along and find a way to make big money off of your work. Believe me that companies are there to make money, #1 priority before anything else, regardless of whatever propaganda about helping people and curing diseases or whatever they are telling you. They hire the scientists who think they are helping people, or at least really want to believe that is what they are doing, and then the scientist makes a modest salary while the big guys and sales and marketing people clean house. And do they care about all the chemicals, synthetic drugs that are making their way into our water supply that can't be removed or what might happen after 20 more years of everyone and their dog (literally) being on drugs, synthetic hormones, whatever and eliminating it right back into our water supply. No, they'll be fat and rich, drinking bottled water from our now melting glaciers without a thought for the rest of us. Sorry guys - I just get disgusted with the whole thing. I think I've just had alot of exposure to what is REALLY going on, and I realize that most folks haven't had that and probably don't realize that they need to be VERY concerned about the future and what we are all doing to ourselves.

Aardvark, thank you very much for speaking to this from such rich experience. IMO in order to REALLY make a difference in our world, we have to come to terms with this kind of hard truth. You are doing us all a service I believe.

Kyla

The Neem tree story is in part true, in part urban legend. What was patented was a particular use of the seeds of the tree for an anti-fungal treatment, which was different from its traditional uses, and those other uses were in no way affected by the patent. However, the patent was revoked after someone else proved he had discovered that particular use a few years earlier.

In general, it's a myth that a naturally occurring plant can be patented. What can be patented is a specific product made from a specific part of the plant. Common knowledge can never be patented.

Oh, I'm so out-of-breath, Tazzy from reading this thread; and yet still the page you linked it to. I want to thank you very much for getting this out.

It is truly amazing that someone would come right out and say that about the seeds we buy & plants we grow.

That's why I wrote this Article in March 12, 2006: Garden Talk: Fedco Drops Monsanto/Seminis: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/582695/

But now I see in the 2009 Fedco Catalog; they're offering Hybrids too. None for me - Thank you! All the seeds I buy are 98% Open Pollinated Heirlooms these days - even if I have to pay a Premium price.

~* Robin

There are so many things running thru my head at this moment!!

But... I'll just say thank you Tazzy for bring this matter up! I appreciate knowing this because I feel as a consumer I have been left in the dark!! And thank you so, so very much Aardvark for your candor, very eye-opening! NatureWalker, your link (from 2006!!) is very informative and it was interesting reading the responses to your thread, thanks for bring it up here!!

Yes Thank you Tazzy for bringing up this topic. It is definitely one that is of special interest to the gardening community. Sorry to vent a bit on your thread. :)

Anyone in for starting a forum 'Seedtrading, only non-hybrids' or something like that?
I know I have hybrids on my list, but that will become fewer and fewer (Well, if a visitor gives me a hybrid, I won't throw it away.
When I started gardening 4 years ago, I didn't know much about it and bought all my plants at a nursery. The second year I looked around in my environment and found a lot of beautiful plants in nature. I took plants, cuttings or seeds to plant in my garden. My second hobby is rockhounting and during these trips I also found wunderful plants, so I made a 'wild' garden. After 4 years the greatest part of my garden has non-hybrid plants. Í have a lot of plants that attracts bees, hummingbirds, butterflies and a lot of other insects. And you can really see that the non-hybrids attracts more of these than the hybrids.
I traded the last 6 months a lot of seeds, mostly non-hybrids. I have a contact in Eastern Europe that (very slowly and very irregular) can provide me seeds of wild plants, I also trade with people in South Africa and Scandinavia, they also offer wild plants and I am negotiating with someone in Turkey, but that can take 1 or 2 years.
But also the US has a lot of great wild plants.
Since I'm only gardening for 4 years, I do not know everything (or maybe very little :). Like: is it a problem to trade OP seeds of wild plants, when there is also a hybrid in the same garden? I know it is not right to trade seeds of a hybrid, when there are more species of it in the garden, but it seems to me it is not a problem for the wild plants.
With a bit of luck I will have seeds of more than 200 non-hybrids this autumn.

Hi Jonna, I would be on your forum all the time!

You asked a good question about having mixed hybrids and wildtypes in the garden with regard to what type of seed you would get out of them. In the lab greenhouses we typically cap the flower buds prior to anthesis (when the flowers begin to open), so that other plants' pollen can't get in. Then when the bud opens we hand pollinate with the selected donor. In the lab we go a step further by doing PCR or sequencing on the DNA (just a few hours) to verify the parentage. Plus in the lab greenhouse we do not have insect problems - they are sprayed and kept free of pollen carrying insects. In the open garden, it would probably be difficult to know with certainty that you have a pure line, especially with all of the little helpers flying around. Unless you hand pollinated. And even then I would probably want to grow up some of the seed to look at the phenotype before I gave it to anyone else if they were expecting a wildtype plant. Good question. I wonder what others think.

Aardvark, as far I have noticed, all my non-hybrids come true, even if there are hybrids in the garden. The only plant that comes in different colors is the Digitalis purpurea. A few years ago I took some young plants from the woods around here (purple/pink), the next year there were a few white ones in the garden and now I have all colors between white and purple. Where the white ones came from I don't know.
I only hand pollinate some of my vegetables, not to be sure of the species, but to be sure fruit is coming ( marrows, gurks and pumpkins).
I think that 'wild' species do not easily cross with others, because they do not cross in nature too.
Still I hope to hear if I'm right in this.

I think you are probably right Jonna. Usually wildtypes are hardier plants than hybrids anyway and I would just expect them to be more successful with a self cross rather than with another plant or a hybrid. If it is a self crossing plant, that doesn't require being pollinated by a different plant, you could lay some pretty good odds that the plant will most likely pollinate itself.

I am very interested in OP heirlooms.

I have a variegated Bromiliad and the tag says illegal to propagate. How ya gonna keep it from dividing & producing babies? Ho Ho Ho.

Bumping this up as the subject has come up recently......

Great thread. The neem tree story may be partially true, but I understand that someone from India, living in the US, tried to patent turmeric for applying to cuts and bruises -- a common home remedy in India and apparently very effective. Some group from India fought a huge case in international court to stop that patent because the cure had been used for centuries ( millenia?) in India and was hardly original with the Indians who moved to the US.
Indian ayurvedic medicine is written in Sanskrit and the US patent office can't read it so there are people in India translating the ancient Sanskrit herbal medicines into a data base that the world's patent offices can use so they won't grant patents on ancient ayurvedic medicine.
I have read this in a couple of reputable sources and believe it to be true, but if it is yet another urban legend, I don't mind being corrected.

Interesting thread. I certainly don't like the direction of companies who want to take ownership of all the plants and food sources on the planet. It is very selfish and greedy as aardvark7 pointed out. I'm also leery of GM material getting into the normal plant population and the GM patent owner staking a claim on the tainted crop.

As for hybrids, I think they are fine. Nature creates hybrids. I think it is part of maintaining the genetic diversity on the planet. When I get a dog I prefer to go to the pound and pick out a hybrid. The pure species are generally more disease prone, neurotic, and have other issues associated with inbreeding. Plants aren't quite the same, but hybrids are frequently more robust. Some hybrids are sterile and some aren't. Those that are fertile go on to reproduce ... something new.

I do like being able to plant from seed and recognize the value of grass-roots seed saving and exchange in light of the corporate greed induced reduction of biological diversity. Sterile hybrids don't contribute to that. I have a combination of hybrids and true species growing on my small square of earth. I'm heavier on the true species in part because I can start several plant from little or no $. I initially got my Ancho pepper seeds by going to the store and buying a single pepper. Now I save some from a healthy fruit on my best plant every year. Same thing for tomatos and melons and ... I suppose it may be wise to buy another pepper every few years or trade seeds to maintain some genetic diversity.

I'll also comment that I've bought seed (perennials, herbs, not food) from companies that sell seeds largely collected in nature. Alplains and Rocky Mountain Rare Plants are good sources for seeds for plants native to the Western US or from similar climates. There are other sources. The heirloom vegetable seed companies and seed banks are also worth supporting - especially when it doesn't cost you any more to buy from them and help them continue to plant another years crops for the future.