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Cottage Garden Seed Swap & Chat #22
Thanks Robin.
Star ... all those seeds you soak... are they sown indoors or out, as in Winter Sowing?
just trying to get this soaking thing figured out.
Sure thing Terese, I wasn't sure if you were online or not - so for this one the piggy pic will have that white copyright stuff all over it.
I don't soak my WS at all, I figure they're gonna get wet outside as it is.....
I mainly do that for all my indoor seeds adn for what I do outside for winter sow too, but I can't really tell ya to much about the outdor sowing cuz we don't have the cold and winter snows and stuff like ya all do, so for outside I woudl take somebody else's advice. Southern folks and warm areas don't have winter sow like ya all do.
While you all are on the topic of soaking... I'm trying some Bird of Paradise seeds again this year. Last year I followed packet directions using hot water for a few days and only got 1 in 5 to germinate. I'm considering using H2O2 on them this time. Anyone have experience with these?
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This message was edited Jan 3, 2009 7:18 PM
Star, it was Critter that was growing sweet peas for her mom
klstuart, someone else will have ta help you with the Bird of Paradise
Very useful dialog everyone. I'm going to add the clorox solution routine to the H202 solution routine (separately). I will say that, I was once given some MG seeds and warned that the mold on them might be a problem. So, I did soak them a few minutes in a clorox solution first, and had excellent germination.
Thanks for that tip on MG's - I hadn't had luck with mine so will try the chlorox routine with them.
Wow, you've been very chatty today. Very informative articles. Just try to take me to rehab! NO NO NO!
I learn so much from you all! : )
H202 soaked seed sprouts sooner and does away with ickies. Gotcha.
WIB!
SW
Be careful w/ the mini blinds-remember that they have some checmical in them that seeps into your ground.....
With wooden craft sticks-any marking wash off them rather quickly and they mold even quicker-just FYI-I remember someone using cut yogurt cups.....
Dryad, can you tell me a little more about what happens/doesn't happen when you tried to grow those MGs?
Where they the large seeds, like those belonging to Ipomoea nil (large-flowered, fancy Japanese morning glories)?
Or were they smaller seeds, like species of I. hederifolia v luteola 'Sunspots' and I. quamoclit?
From what I've read, the smaller seeds should not be soaked as long as the larger seeds. And some species take longer to germinate than the nils that respond pretty quickly to the H202 solution in combination with nicking (will get back to that in next paragraph).
For me, the I. hederifolia took quite a few days more to sprout than did the nils - whether they were left in their coffee filter/baggie contraption or sowed directly in the pot (perhaps due to cool May temperatures). (Also, this species takes quite a while to flower from seed, so probably at least one vine of it should be grown out in a pot to ensure that pods can continue ripening indoors after fall frost if you want seeds.
I know the I. quamoclit self-sows at least to where I live in z7, so if you have enough seeds to play with, you could probably wintersow some - not sure about the I. hederifolia, but worth a try. If my memory is working, then these seeds might be wintersowable into Ohio, z5...not to mention I. purpurea.
I'm using species names, because they behave differently in some respects. Normally, I. nil does not self-sow over the winter as far north as I am, so I don't recommend trying to winter-sow it, and I do think warmth is very beneficial to the germinating process. But! One of the gray nils did self-sow over the past winter under our yew hedge in a protected, sloping (good drainage) place on the south side of the house (but the ground gently sloped toward the NW).
So, whatever rules we may be going by here, there are some vewwwwy intriguing exceptions.
Anyhoo - back to germinating those large, hard-shelled nils. Sometimes, they will swell during soaking without nicking. The swelling indicates that they have absorbed water and will likely sprout. But, sometimes, a soaking nil seed just sits there without swelling - and THAT is when it needs to be nicked (after 3 - 4 hours is thought optimal by some). The nicking allows the seed to absorb water. Whatever you do, do not nick the end of the seed that has the eye - nick anywhere else - with nail clippers, nail file...or scratch the seed against some sand paper. If you try to dig a hole to China in the seed, the seed will pass China and go straight to seed-heaven. So, scratch just enough that you can barely see some white beneath the outer coat of the shell - scratch delicately and carefully.
After nicking, put the seed back in your H202 solution. You might need to repeat the nicking in another 4 hours if there is no sign of swelling - I had to repeat twice a couple of times. But, the longer you leave a nil seed soaking that has not swollen, the greater the chances are that it will join it's brethen on their China-thwarted trip.
One thing I like about soaking seeds in combination with the coffee filter/baggie method is that you can watch the progress of the seeds through the transparent plastic. Sometimes the coffee filter paper dries out and might need a gentle misting to keep it slightly moist. Of course, you'll be able to see when the seeds sprout and pot them up soon when they do.
Although a lot of seeds do well with the baggie method, another way to germinate seeds is to skip the moistened paper and sow the seed directly into a soilless germinating medium inside a styrofoam coffee cup, which has been bottom-soaked with an H202 solution and drained, and then put inside a baggie. Sometimes the top 1/4 or 1/3 of the cup is Perlite with the other medium beneath for when the roots reach down there.
These materials afford a relatively sterile environment for the germinating seeds, but play havoc in the environment upon disposal. So, sterilizing cleaned, recycled containers with a clorox solution and sterilizing the germinating medium with boiling water might be considered.
Norman C. Deno recommends pouring boiling water onto a container of medium 3 times, draining well each time. Sterlization is high, but not perfect, and he thinks that some microorganisms left might be a good thing. Dryad, have you been working with beneficial fungi in your pots? I'd like to hear more about that.
I just assumed that germination was your Waterloo - did your seeds decide to not cooperate at a different stage of the growing process?
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(PS - there are two things I do before I sow a seed anywhere (especially MGs) -
(#1 - I make a list dated for that day of what I'm sowing so I can make notes. Eventually those notes may make it to my computer - but I'm a dinosaur and I wuvs me paper
#2 - the 2nd thing I do before sowing a seed is to make a label on recycled yogurt container thingies with the kind of *sharpie* that is weather proof. I put that label right into the soaking baggie with the seed, and it follows the seed around to the baggie, and stays with the seedling allllllll the way to the garden (eventually) where it shares the same hole with the seedling once it's in the ground. Then I make a map of where what is, so I don't have to exercise my cantankerous joints to get down there and look at that label again. But the label is there in case things get confusing.
The label (and the map derived from the label) has:
a) the Number assigned to the seed in the first place (helpful if you're working with 100s of MG seedlings);
b) the name of the seed's parent (seedlings can turn out differently from the parent which is when it gets interesting to note what's going on genetically)
c) an abbreviated code for who gave me the seeds - to me, these plants are emissaries of friends.
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At this point, what I know has come from so many sources - Norman C. Deno who wrote the indispensable Seed Germination Theory and Practice, 139 Lenor Drive, State College, PA 16801 - $20; many gardeners on DG whose knowledge I have indexed on the Morning Glory forum sticky index - a work in progress; and my own Magoo-ish adventures with their advice.
>>With wooden craft sticks-any marking wash off them rather quickly and they mold even quicker
i attempted the wooden sticks my first year.... i found they did not fade, but the rotted, some molded, and many broke in half where the rot was.
KLStuart... Here ya go.. read this and if ya still got questions, then be glad to help ya. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/938500/
wooden anything in the groudn or pot is an instant magnet for fungi, not good for your plats, but really cool to look at. Ya I love fungi and mycology.
All my writing after so many rains and such came off so I could barely read the #ers that I put to correspond w/ my spreadsheet-I guess just different happen......
critter, I got the sweet peas sprouted in the house, then put them out in a cold frame when they were about 3" tall. The seedlings are kind of wiry and tender, but I've broken the leader off of them before and side sprouts developed. They would require some extra care in packaging, but I think you could do it. I wouldn't remove them from their growing medium though, I don't think they like their roots disturbed (that's why I used plantable pots).
Fairy, the sun bleaches my labels worse than rains, so I push the label below the soil surface. Gotta pull them out to look at them, but that seemed to help. Also started putting #s on the bottom of the containers, and those stayed legible.
critter, I just saw where you mentioned you may have your MIL start the SP outside. In her zone that should work well. She's a zone or two warmer isn't she?
Neal - they're the Japanese MG. I tried soaking in a combo of water and H2O2 but got nothing...left them there for a couple days and went ahead and potted in sterile medium on a heat mat, still nothing. I'm going to bookmark your recommendations and try that this year - I was a chicken last year and only did a few seeds, so I still have some left to try this year.
I use the wooden stakes for annuals, that way I don't really care if they don't last more than a season. And i have a variety of pens i use, sharpies and some paint pens. The paint pens I have don't give me any fuss, but I use them only for the long-lasting perennials and such. For Christmas last year I got a Brother Labeler for my metal plant labels, so those are primarily what i use for permanent items in the front and back yard, the plastic tags are for more crowded areas where a metal tag would look really incongruous.
Made the mistake of sitting up last night to watch the Colts lose. Again. Sigh....
Edited to add that Suzy showed me a trick with dahlia tubers last year - she buries the tag right along with the tuber, as well as with other bulbs. That way when the bulb comes up the plastic tag is right there without worrying about the name bleaching off from the sunshine.
This message was edited Jan 4, 2009 10:45 AM
I did the popsicle sticks from the dollar store last year - trying to save money. I had the same experiences - molding, breaking, fading. So lesson learned : ) I will probably order the plant markers this year. The best deal I found on them and other seed starting supplies was from http://www.novoselenterprises.com/products/general.asp
I'll be placing an order soon, I need mpre inserts and labels, but I'll reuse my trays and domes. Does anyone have the easiest way to sanitize these? I was thinking on doing it in the bath tub. : )
Oh I forgot to say I got one of these a year or two ago http://www.gardeners.com/Marking-Pen/FlowerGardening_PlantMarkers,33-196,default,cp.html and it seems to work very well on the plastic markers. I have some that were outside two years and still look like the day i wrote on them. : )
Is this what you are talking about with the paint marker? http://www.gardeners.com/Permanent-Paint-Marker/FlowerGardening_PlantMarkers,37-559,default,cp.html I don't think they had those when I order my marker, but now I am interested in one. : ) I like that you can rub it off with alcohol. I would be able to reuse the labels with that. : )
This message was edited Jan 4, 2009 10:56 AM
Those of you that are winter sowing, DO NOT presoak your seeds. Soaking your seeds allows water to be absorbed into the seeds and when you put it out in containers the seeds freeze and it will kill your seeds. Nature has it's own way of soaking those seeds slowly so they absorb what they need, when they need it, without killing them. Winter sowing is essentially the same thing as soaking for indoors. It just takes longer and gives the seeds that little extra natural boost they need.
Robin, this will be my first year with Japanese MGs. I've never had much problem with other morning glories, but the Japanese ones may be more persnikity. I think you're thinking of bluespiral's post- which I'm noting to come back to later.
Robyn, well put. That's what I was thinking, soaking is kind of the instant method to achieve the same thing.
A couple of years ago I researched plant label prices and found Woodland Creek Labels. I bought 1000 - 5" x 5/8" labels and have been very happy with them. They aren't as thick as some, but they are sturdy and uv treated. They have a variety of sizes, but for example they are only charging $10 for 500 of the 5" x 5/8" labels. They only charge $4.75 for shipping of 500 or 1000 labels. So if you order 1000, that only makes them 2.5 cents each (with shipping cost factored in.) They will also send you sample labels on request.
Here's their website:
http://www.woodlandcreeklabels.com/
Their Ebay Store:
http://stores.ebay.com/Woodland-Creek-Nursery-Labels
btw, Star, I put a few in your piggy envie so you can see if you like them.
argh -You're right Neal, so sorry bluespiral!! It was early, and I was still dealing with the fact the Colts choked in the post-season.....again....
I scanned one of the paint pens I use, not sure if it will come through well enough to read, but these work great for me. Novosel has some great stuff, that may be where I got those from.
I can't remember who asked about Bird of Paradise seeds (and am too lazy to go back through the threads) but there's an article today on B of P, and it includes this info on the seeds:
"As the flowers die, the seeds mature and eventually fall to the earth from the dried dead flower. In ideal conditions the seeds take 1 to 2 months to germinate and another 4 to 5 years for a mature flowering plant to develop. Most growers, however, simply divide mature plants to get more plants."
Looks like the B of P require quite a bit of patience!!
Robin -- i feel your pain... i too was roooooting for Indy. All those penalties just killed them in OT.
I really felt bad for Payton ... even though it does take an entire team to win or lose ... just seems the "D" did them in the end. IF they did not 'give up' all those 1st downs by penalties ... the Colts would have gotten the ball back and probalby won.
no offense to anyone in Southern Cal ... but an 8n8 team in the playoffs?? oh well, they really didnt have much of a division anyways.... Even though i do like many of the teams in the play offs this year... i think i'm roooootin' for Tenn to go all the way. Maybe just because they have the best record ... though i also love the Steelers and Eagles. [wouldnt mind 'Ole McNabb goign all teh way... that may shut the Eagles fan up ... heck, we'd love that guy in Chicago .... though it does seem anyone that is/was good that come here, ends up stinking too.... what's up with that?? ]
whoops... sorry for all that way OT stuff........
Yeah, if only the Colts had a running game and some kind of defense. I'm thinking Dungy will actually retire this year - perhaps they'll actually get someone in who can come up with a decent defense for Peyton before he retires. But then again, I'm an Atlanta Braves fan (have been for decades) and lived through their pseudo-dominance in the '90's - all those post seasons and only one ring. Didn't make them less fun to watch though! And don't get me started on Chicago - lived there for 15 years and haven't a CLUE what their issue is, beyond stupid owner....
OK, that's all for my sports rant - LOL!
>>haven't a CLUE what their issue is, beyond stupid owner..
LOL... it's so funny. my X -bro-in law has one of those dolls ya stick pins in...
its a McCaskey Doll
Poor Papa Bear must be rolling around in his grave.
I'm personally looking forward to seeing what Mike Singletary is going to do to/with the 49er's next year - should be fun to watch his press conferences! It's amazing to see how many of the Bears from the '85 team are coaches in so many places OTHER than Chicago....that should tell McCaskey something, but perhaps he's not tuned in to the same wavelength as his former, winning, players are. We've really hijacked this thing, haven't we??
Gosh, you all are so well informed. I'm learning so much on this forum. I found some suitable non-led plastic from a different project that I can use for my labels. I have both indelible ink and paint pens. So I'm almost good to go.
tcs, I remembered after reading your post that the sticks breaking were a problem.
Star, I like fungus of all kinds. Just not in my house, unless I'm going to eat it. LOL! : )
Couldn't care less about sports, but am sorry your team lost.
Thanks for the photo of the kind of pen you use, dryad, I'm not familiar with it, but will look for one.
Bluespiral, I've been drawing a map of my plants and where and what they are in the garden. (Still have to map out some areas of the garden). I used it as a reference when figuring out what seed I had to swap, as some of the Markers had disappeared. I like your method but would also back it up on the computer. You can scan in your maps. Triple redundancy. I think I'll make two markers and bury one, too.
WIB,
SW
Just wanted to share a pic of us piggies soaking our seeds...
Dryad, that is too cute!!!
Oh Robin... that is adorable!!
Oh my. I sittign here laughing my head off and choking on my coffee at the same time. Way too cute!!!!!!!!........ : )
Are any of you familar with the EZ Clone 120 Hydroponics cloning thing? I found a used one that I might go purchase today. But, I wanted your advice on it first. It retailed for $450, he is selling it for $150. It is supposed to do 120 cuttings at once, root in a few days.
In trying to glean info from DG, I have bought Biogel Cloning Gel, Superthrive, H2O2. Now I need to get Root Shield and vermiculite. The lady at the Hydroponics store also sold me a jug of Grandma Enggy's Humic Acid H2. Do I really need all of this stuff to propagate cuttings and sow seeds? I am so confused, maybe a little dirt crazy, I want to grow something!
dryad, those piggies aren't swimming out of your basement are they. LOLROTFLSHTDH&KTIC!
(Laughed out loud, rolled on the floor laughing so hard that Darling Husband & kids think I'm certifiable!) Great photo!
I know nothing about cloning Lynn, wish I could help.
WIB,
SW
Lynn... Haven't heard of it before, but ya might ask some of the folks in the propagation forum, and I wouldn't belive anybody that told ya cuttings will root in two days.
Personally I think somebody seeing ya coming. ; )
Root shield, vermicultite, perlite, sterile seed starting mix, hydroen peroxide and I use Jungle Soil professional growers from Lowe's, some pots and a tiny bottle of root-tone and ya cna do just about anythign ya want.
If anythign I would get or build a plant stand and get ya the shop lights and bulbs ( several hundred dollars) and you cna turn your home inside into mini greenhouse for the winter.
Souds like you need to go out side, dig a cup of dirt and plant a seed just to stop the seed sowing frenzy addiction hahahahah
LOL - SW, I'm not gonna tell Nora that one! I just now convinced her it's "safe" to go in the basement!
He said a few days, not 2 days, so I took that to mean a week or so. What is Jungle Soil professional growers? Yes, I do need some dirt therapy. I want to get my containers all ready for my seeds. I went out today to check on all my babies, and some just didn't like the freezing weather very well. Thank goodness I have seeds coming! I thought I should try to take some cuttings, in case I lose more plants. This is their (and mine) first year, so I really don't know what will die and what will come back.
It's okay dryad, just remember for future reference. The basement really is safe Nora. : - )
Want to get some seed from last year planted while I'm waiting for my piggy seeds. Ok, now I'm really confused, but smiling. I went looking for the wintersowing info, which I thought I'd bookmarked, to refresh my memory, but now I can't find it. Help!
Thanks!
WIB,
SW