Winterberry questions and answers...

We came to here from this: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5902886

HoosierGreen asked:

•...fertilization schedule...

Fertilization schedule? What's that?

You can believe me, or consult with any Holly Society of America member you know. Or best, take a gander at the late Fred Galle's Hollies: The Genus Ilex. Ilex verticillata really is a crowd pleaser without working at it too hard.

The 'Bonfire' you see above has not had any attention from me except sprinkler runoff, and weeding out the goldenrods and asters that want to compete for attention.

I'm not saying that winterberries can't benefit from more attention - just that a lot of specificity is not necessary. I'd venture that in soils ranging from 5.0 - 7.2 pH, average to above average moisture, and a handful of 10-10-10 once in late spring after they've leafed out - you'll get everything you'd ever want out of that plant.

As long as you have an appropriate male pollinator with overlapping bloom time.

This is where most folks go awry, and it is totally unnecessary. The bloom times for pretty much every named deciduous holly is online, and in Galle's book, and in nurserymen's catalogs, etc. Just look it up, and plant away.

•...persistence...birds eat them up...

If the question is whether or not to plant them because birds might eat them, then you might as well quit gardening because something will always eat anything there is that is edible. Persistence of fruit on just about any native plant will be based on feeding pressure (or you sitting nearby with a gun, or creating some kind of exclusion device like netting), and no one can accurately predict what that might be from year to year. I say, if they are being eaten too fast to suit you, then plant more. We have lots of birds here (used to be none - former overgrazed cow pasture) because I've purposely planted those plants to attract them. Birds will ultimately contribute mightily to native plant community restoration, through distributing seeds they've "processed".

•...sun/shade, wet/dry...

Winterberries will flower more heavily and thus potentially set more fruit with more sun and more wetness. The plants will tolerate shade and dryness, and the ensuing stress means they will perform at a lower level.

•...Do you have other varieties planted, and/or is 'Bonfire' your best performer?

I have a lot of winterberries around here, and I aim to keep adding to the collection. If I wasn't already Viburnum Valley, then Ilex Island might have been the handle. Put on the coffee, I feel a story coming on...

I first met up with the members of the Great Rivers Chapter of Holly Society of America back in the mid '80s. Then, stalwart plantsmen (and great people) like Theodore Klein, Bob Simpson, Hal Elmore, Joe Hickman, and Lloyd and Helen Hahn populated the group, and what inspiration! They were like grandparents, doting on the new members by providing cuttings or young plants, and regaling us with stories of plants and each other. They were hardest on each other and themselves when critiquing plant qualities. This kept the also-rans out of circulation, and provided the best of the best for commerce and distribution.

From these experiences over the last twenty plus years, I've come to appreciate the standards set by these men and women, and the value in trying things out for yourself over time - versus just what you read or see pictures of. Thus, I'm working through acquiring, planting, and growing all the clones of winterberries and other deciduous hollies to see how they do here, in Scott County KY at Viburnum Valley Farm.

I have:

•Ilex verticillata 'Winter Red'
•Ilex verticillata 'Winter Gold'
•Ilex verticillata 'Goldfinch'
•Ilex verticillata 'Tiasquam'
•Ilex verticillata 'Shortcake'
•Ilex verticillata 'Red Sprite'
•Ilex verticillata 'Quitsa'
•Ilex verticillata 'Stop Light'
•Ilex verticillata 'Jim Dandy'
•Ilex verticillata 'Johnny Come Lately'
•Ilex verticillata 'Southern Gentleman'
•Ilex serrata x verticillata 'Harvest Red'
•Ilex x 'Bonfire'
Ilex decidua 'Byer's Golden'
•Ilex decidua 'Council Fire'
•Ilex decidua 'Red Escort'
•Ilex decidua 'Memphis Belle'

I think that's all of them. I have planted and cared for many more, including a whole slew of stock plants from Simpson Nursery that they provided to me when I still managed landscapes for large thoroughbred horse farms in central KY. It is quite a thrill to acquire, ship, and plant a 6' x 6' Ilex verticillata 'Aurantiaca', or a 150 plant hedge of densely branched 5' Ilex verticillata 'Winter Red' from the guy who selected and named that plant.

OK, cut me, and I bleed winterberry.

WOW! Quite a collection. Thanks for the info. I know they will grow well here in central Indiana, so I'll have to try some out next spring. I love their look in the winter landscape, but if the birds prove to be competitors, I'll just have to cut some branches to enjoy indoors. Here's a pic of a nice planting at the Indianapolis Museum of Art. I believe they are 'Red Sprite'. On a side note, I visited Simpson Nursery in Vincennes, IN a few autumns ago to see their winterberries. They were almost as nice as yours, Viburnum Valley!

Viburnum, Are any of these smaller than the ones in your photo? If so, which one would you use as a mate? Thanks

Thanks, HoosierGreen. I do have quite a few, but since these can be gotten as small plants, bare root, rooted cuttings, or simply divisions of suckers of a parent plant - it isn't hard to build up a herd. Plus, starting 20 years ago didn't hurt.

The above picture demonstrates how Ilex decidua (Possumhaw holly) can be grown as a small tree or as a multistemmed big shrub. It also illustrates the range of colors represented by this species.

Alas, I only get to visit this planting. Bernheim Arboretum (Clermont, KY) boasts these specimens, part of the greatest holly collection in this part of the US.

stormyla:

All the Ilex verticillata are smaller than the Possumhaws shown above.

There are several Winterberries purported to be "smaller". If you go out and observe these plants in collections, what you'll realize is that these clones are compact, or maybe slower growing, or denser (less space between branching points). Ultimately, these plants are not small. Their growth habits lend ease to pruning for form, though, so that's a plus. But Winterberries are exceedingly easy to rejuvenate - cut them off low and watch the regrowth flourish.

You have to state what small means to you, or where/how you want to use the plant. 'Red Sprite' indicates smallness, but these plants easily reach 6' x 6'. They are cute in a 3G or 5G pot. They need an "early male" partner; 'Jim Dandy' is one, 'Rhett Butler' would work (but he's partial to 'Scarlett O'Hara'), and there is always the forgettable 'Early Male' that is still sold.

Other selections promoted as smaller include 'Shortcake' (from Polly Hill up northeast), 'Cacapon', and 'Shaver'. These may be scarcer in commerce. All these would partner with the same male as 'Red Sprite'.

Here's the miss 'Scarlett O'Hara'...

stormyla: Note that the 'Red Sprites' in the photo are sheared to be kept under 3' and are heavily fruited.

HoosierGreen:

Note also that the timing of shearing is important, so that flowers and subsequent fruiting opportunities are retained. Prune at the wrong time, and that brilliant show is lost for a season.

Thank you, VV and Hoosier. Red Sprite at 6' x 6' would be fine. Do Jim Dandy and darling Rhett get much bigger? How far apart can they be planted and still cross pollinate? I don't like to trim and shape shrubs, only sometimes a wild unruly branch. I love shrubs in their own naturallly graceful form.

I would be planting them in the back of my beds in morning sun and dappled afternoon sun. I'm going to see if I can find photos of them when they still have leaves.

Well, all of them have nice leaves, but I'm concerned that they will want wetter soil than mine.

I might have missed the suggested pruning schedule for Red Sprite in the recommendations. Could someone point me in the right direction?
I am the proud owner of 2 Red Sprite and the male Jim Dandy as of this past Fall. All 3 will have to be pruned to a smaller size, 3' X 3' for the Sprites and 8' X 8' for Jim.

Since the male holly is needed only for pollination, you might consider reversing your pruning order to let the fruiting 'Red Sprite' hollies get larger and keep in male less noticeable since it can be rather drab. VV might have some good advice as to how large one needs to let the male be in order to get a good berry set if you're going to keep the females at 3' x 3'.

VV. most helpful as always. We have intended to add a nice mixed stand for the last few years. This will be the year.....and with you help, I may get it right. We have some growing in the wild on our property, but not were we can see them during the winter. I am always happy to share berries with the birds. Thanks Patti

Good luck with your new planting, bbrookrd. You should have an awesome display in no time.

As far as timing of pruning....I caution folks since cutting off flowers or potential fruit is so common, it's not funny. Learn about the plants you are growing, so that this problem doesn't beset you. And don't always rely on word-of-mouth, because we all garden in extremely different situations and the plants aren't there to defend themselves in the conversation. Read...

That said, winterberries bloom on new wood. So, prune early in the year before new growth extensions begin (maybe even before the plant leafs out). I would always recommend some 10-10-10 or other balanced not-too-high N fertilizer after pruning or after the plant leafs out. This will assist the plant in recovering from the removal of stems that would have produced leaves.

It is much easier to see what you are doing while pruning a deciduous shrub when it is leafless. This is a bad choice when the plant blooms on old wood though, which is not a problem with winterberries.

I do what amounts to pruning on my winterberries in winter, to collect boughs for holiday decorating. Two birds with one stone, as it were.

As for size...I listed the winterberry clones that I know of that are considered dwarf or compact. All the rest can be expected to reach the 8-10' tall and wide size eventually, though (I repeat), these plants take very well to cutting back hard and rejuvenation. That's what I would do - let them grow on out, and cut 'em back when they seem too large.

Thanks for the winter pruning information. It sounds like an excellent idea to prune and use the boughs in the winter for decorating.
Since my winterberry are small now I assume it will be awhile before they reach their mature size and need the pruning.

Hoosier, that was a very interesting idea to try to prune the larger male winterberry smaller or as small as the Sprites. I kind of hid mine between a heavily pruned Yew and fronted by Switch Grass. I imagine eventually I'll have to move the grass and remove the Forsythia that spills out through the Yew.

Here is a photo of one of the small Sprites this past Fall. I've grouped it with a Inkberry 'Compacta' and 'Little Henry' Itea just out of view of the photo. I just have room for the 3 shrubs.

I hope to follow VV advice and replace my blood with winterberry too. Here are some photos of the future homes during various seasons for what I hope is an army of various winterberry in all colors. Just imagine the color in Dec among the existing plants. Less grass is good, always. I have cleared some more spaces not shown in these pictures too. I will post the results in a few years! Birds will be happy. Patti

Stormy, I regret I haven't been glued to this dialogue until today.
If you're interested in a smaller winterberry display, I've got a bizarre suggestion.
As I'm always fascinated by weird plant mutants, I have a very strange tiny ilex dwarf called Ilex serrata 'Koshobai'.
It is ridiculously tiny, but I think it's adorable. Tiny red berries on a tiny shrub.
I grow mine in a pot; it would certainly get lost in a landscape.
I've had it for several years - not particularly fussy.
But definitely not for the 'wow' crowd - only if you're entertained by peculiarity.

Thanks, Weerobin. I definitely find peculiarity entertaining, but not in this instance!
This weekend I was in the Pocono Mountains and saw a professionally maintained commercial property that had several different plantings of various types of Winterberry bushes.
The range of sizes of the shrubs as well as the berries was very interesting. Also the shapes and abundance of berries varied quite a bit. The branch colors, thickness and density were also distinctly different, some giving a better backdrop for the berries than others.
There was a hedge of them that had been trimmed to maintain a height of about 3'. That reinforced my desire to have a variety that is naturally smaller as I really hate the look of perfectly coiffed shrubs. In my case, they would become very messy spikey shrubs.

Stormyla, any notes taken on which ones had branch color that set off the best look in your eyes? I won't be hedging any of mine. Only some judicious pruning if needed. Patti

A whole 'nother category of measurement of landscape aesthetic value...

A broad generalization that holds up pretty well:

•Northerly sourced provenance (the early bloomers) seems to have more of a light bark/branch/stem color (you might call it bright gray or silvery). Selections of this category would include the Polly Hill selections like 'Tiasquam', 'Shortcake', and 'Quitsa' along with others like 'Red Sprite', 'Jim Dandy', and 'Cacapon'.

•Southerly sourced provenance (later blooming) seem to have a darker bark/branch/stem color, which might be considered in a range from steel gray to somewhere on the brown side of gray, but not quite so brown as to make you believe it favored the Prunus group. Selections in this category would include 'Winter Red' and 'Winter Gold', along with 'Southern Gentleman' and 'Johnny Come Lately'.

Now, this is from experience and memory. I'm not standing in front of all these plants with my RHS color chart. I don't think the observation will vary with location, though. Gray here in KY should be gray up northeast.

I remembered that I have posted a few images in PlantFiles. Here are some for those of you insatiable Ilexophiles...

All Ilex verticillata:
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/adv_search.php?searcher%5Bcommon%5D=&searcher%5Bfamily%5D=&searcher%5Bgenus%5D=ilex&searcher%5Bspecies%5D=verticillata&searcher%5Bcultivar%5D=&searcher%5Bhybridizer%5D=&searcher%5Bgrex%5D=&search_prefs%5Bblank_cultivar%5D=&search_prefs%5Bsort_by%5D=genus&images_prefs=both&Search=Search

'Bonfire' (notice variation between thinner young stems and fatter old trunk)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/224566/

'Winter Gold' (dark even on young twigs, with some glaucous bloom)
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/224588/

See if any of these are useful.

Thank you, VV. I felt very lucky to experience that landscape. I never really understood why folks are so passionate about Ilex.

Patti, Sorry, they were not labled. However, I really liked the very dark branches with very round red berries with a more open effect. They had fewer berries, but were very dramatic.

The ones I liked least had dense masses of very thin dark branches and more oval shaped berries. These were trimmed as hedges.

Maybe VV has some idea of what they might be.

I need to add some more pictures to this thread - it's winterberry season again...

Photos would be very welcome! Have at it!

Yes, VV Please do.

OK, OK - I thought I'd have to beg...

This is Ilex verticillata 'Tiasquam', with I. v. 'Shortcake' behind it.

Both of those plants were selections by the late Polly Hill of Martha's Vineyard. Fine person and plantswoman, she started her horticultural endeavors after the ripe young age of 50, and practiced this craft for nearly 5 more decades. She's left a legacy all of us can cherish.

Closeup of 'Tiasquam'...

Here's a patch of 'Shortcake'. Note that this is much more of an orangey fruited form.

Closeup of 'Shortcake'...

And here's a new Ilex verticillata not yet on the market, but a Polly Hill selection nonetheless...

And I present to you: 'Chickemmoo'

OK, a bit of a letdown after the older burgeoning individuals previously presented, but 'Chickemmoo' is being field tested by Holly Society of America members to see how it performs "off island".

Polly selected it for red fruit that holds later into the season and for being a tough drought resistant shrub.

Here's a closeup of that fruit:

Ilex verticillata 'Maryland Beauty' as a young plant, but still fructiferous...

Can't get enough Ilex verticillata 'Oosterwijk' - this is going to be a keeper as it grows up.

Ilex verticillata 'Stoplight' is a veteran here in the Midwest and Ohio River valley region. It is a compact plant with big fat fruit abundantly borne, and observant eyes react to it as would a prudent driver to its namesake.

A group of young 'Stoplight' plants...

Finally, there is a USNA introduction that was recently rated the finest selection in the whole winterberry group in trialing performed by none less than Longwood Gardens.

I don't know about all that (given that southeastern PA is just about as close to the Garden of Eden as you can get for growing conditions in the US), but I've known this plant for about 20 years, and it is no slouch.

Ilex serrata x Ilex verticillata 'Sparkleberry'...

VibV. I will be adding to my list, no doubt! Especially those Polly Hill selections. Shortcake is a must. Thanks for the update and fine photographs. Patti

Amazing plants. I've gotta make room for more of them!

ViburnumValley, can you recommend any place that would have plantings of winterberrys open to the public?

HG:

I was just in your neck (or at least elbow) of the woods on the first weekend of November, for the fall meeting of the Great Rivers Chapter of Holly Society of America. Terre Haute IN hosted the group, and it was a fine opportunity to see the length and breadth of holly cultivation in western IN. The collection at Deming Park in Terre Haute was started in 1992 (I fondly remember that) and it is growing in nicely with a wide range of evergreen and deciduous species and clones represented - many winterberries performing well. That's just a pleasant hour and a half drive from you.

http://www.demingparkhollyarboretum.com/

There are certainly more places to visit that this. I'd suggest perusing the HSA website:

http://www.hollysocam.org/

where there is a pretty comprehensive listing of holly collections:

http://www.hollysocam.org/arboreta.htm

Anyone even remotely interested in hollies that lives in MO, IL, IN, KY, OH, and even parts of TN and WV, ought to join this stellar group. It is incredibly inexpensive to be a Great Rivers Chapter member, and not that much to be a national HSA member given the value provided. The Great Rivers Chapter meets spring and fall, and has rotating meeting sites around the region (this year was Louisville in spring 2009 and Terre Haute fall 2009).

The national HSA annual meeting is every fall; 2010 brings the group to Knoxville TN. Gear up!

Here's a group shot, obstructed by a fat fructiferous Ilex verticillata 'Hoogendorn'...

Thanks for the info. I'm definitely going to check out Deming Park!

Oops.

This message was edited Dec 7, 2009 10:51 AM

Also:

I ordered plants of "Winter Gold" and 'Chrysocarpa' (Ilex verticillata) I'm planting them in the next week or two. These are very young plants so it'll probably be a while before they are large at all. I have read that these are early blooming females and need an early blooming male called "Southern Gentleman." Is this correct?

I was told my Red Sprite needs a late male bloomer called "Jim Dandy." Is this correct?

All I need now is a good orange variety. Which orange variety is the best?

Check out this photo of 'Chrysocarpa', the yellow berried variety. I think it would be awesome to have the yellow, orange and red planted together. The only problem is I think they need different males that bloom at different times. Unless...someone knows of an early blooming female orange and red.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/180769/

One final question: Do any of you grow "Berry Heavy"?

This message was edited Dec 7, 2009 10:58 AM

OK, echinacea, that was confusing. Not sure where the oops was/is going.

For the rest of your questions:

'Winter Gold' (like 'Winter Red', from which it is a sport) is a late blooming female winterberry. I don't think 'Chrysocarpa' is a late blooming female clone (blooms with the early group for me here), but you could look up a bloom chart for winterberries which shows the relative order of bloom.

'Red Sprite' is an early blooming female clone.

'Southern Gentleman' is a late blooming male, as is 'Johnny Come Lately'.

'Jim Dandy' is a early blooming male, as is 'Rhett Butler'.

If you are collecting winterberries, or plan to have multiple female clones that have different blooming times, then you should get one each of the males that bloom at different times, so that you have maximum pollination potential. You should also take the time to visit an established winterberry collection (check the holly collections listed above) when these plants are in full fruit, because your own eye is going to tell you which color range you prefer.

When does yellow end into gold, and when does gold turn into orange, and then grade on into red-orange, and then turn bright red and end up as blood red? Unless you carry around paint chips or the RHS color chart, that's pretty subjective.

'Aurantiaca' is a pretty good orange fruited winterberry. 'Afterglow' has more red in it, but you wouldn't confuse its fruit with 'Red Sprite'. I like 'Shortcake', though I don't know that I'd call it a pure orange.

Plant them all, determine which you like best, and then trade off the rest.