Growing Veggies in Coco Coir

Today I used BocaBobs Coco Coir in some of my EBs replacing Jungle Growth for the very first time since using EBs or earthboxes to those of you not familiar with the expression. I planted eggplant seedlings in one EB and used his gro-bags that are complete with the coir, In them for lettuce and bush beans. Tomorrow I intend to plant cucumbers in another EB and continue to experiment with it because of it is so easy to work with being very lite and weighing only 10-12 lbs per pak before adding water which gives me enough mix for 1 1/2 EBs. I made certain to pack the corners first as required.

Everything but the cedar containers are now filled with the coir. I even have a self watering system now! Really getting up in the world. LOL

Had my helper re-hydrate the coir and he loved doing it especially anything to do with water.

Nice new thread Ted !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T Plant
What and how much did you add for fertilizer to the coir mix? Did you leave out the dolomite limestone as suggested on another thread? I would be interested in experimenting with coir next season but need to know how you adapt the fertilizers if necessary! Good luck with the experiment!

Yes, I still use the same good ol 10-10-10 . Two cups laid in a two inch line on the opposite side of the tomatos. No lime this season as the coir has enough. Perhaps lime may be needed next season but I'll have to wait and see. I'll be setting up my cucumbers tomorrow plus setting the rest of the auto watering system. It is easy once you get started and Bobs instructions are terrific. I'm doing my whole place not just my veggie garden but my roses also and they are on both sides of my home plus my tulips when it is time for them also my Brugmansia and Daturas. Might even hook up my blueberries and fruit trees.

TP - looking good. I'll be following your progress with your (and Bob's) new potting medium.
Flip

Good man as I know it is the answer to your hard work...The nemotodes in our soil is just to much and the insecticide is only available to agriculture- farmers. I planted three very expensive flowering plants and they died in less than a season. When I pulled them up the roots were blown up like ballons and rotted away. Our soil is no good except for evergreens and trees but not food bearing plants especially the ones we love to grow. Lettuce is about the only one that stands a chance as they grow so rapidly and the nemotodes don't seem to get a chance to get to them. Even the top soil we buy contain them as I have seen them scrape the top soil from the school grounds and the landscapers sell the same infested soil to homeowners. I know because I asked and they told me. This is the same soil as I am living on! Containers or earthboxes are the only way for us to grow decent plants and Bobs Coco coir is beautiful. I will be planting some fancy cucumbers in my 20 gallon containers tomorrow as I just had too much to do today. Say Hello to the Family for me and I'll be back for some more of those BLT sandwiches that your daughter makes!
Ted
PS --- I'll take some more pictures tomorrow..

TP - you know that I have a lot of containers now and I need to get with Bob to see how this stuff works. I know the eb I use the original way works great - no doubt those two plants are the best I've got. And I do like growing peppers in pots. I would like to try it.
You also know that I still remain a dirt boy, planting the majority of my veggies in the ground. I know in S Fla we have problems with soil in certain areas but so far I've avoided the nematodes. I think down where I'm at, pretty close to the Redlands and Homestead where tons of vegetables are grown, the situation isn't quite as dire. It is a lot more work - preparing, planting, weeding, spraying and feeding - but I like the work that goes with growing in the ground.
I know how much you love gardening and I'm really glad you're growing all the veggies now. I'm sure you'll have beautiful plants and fruit. Best of luck. Say hello to your helper and his folks for me! We should get together for a blt sometime after the new year.
Flip

Flip - the coco coir is also a great soil conditioner. Maybe you should try some by mixing it into your soil where the veggy plant will go. That would be a great test for the "dirt boy"

BocaBob

BBob, I'd definitely like to try some. It may be a little late for this season's tomato crop but I sure would like to see how the hot peppers do with the coco coir in pots (or the 5 gal bag).
Flip

All right!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now we're talking

Be careful as Coco Coir is known to 'reattract' salts...(I had a horrible experience in my nursery using coir) so be careful using ferts that may have alot....

AlohaHoya,
Would the problem of reattracting salts apply to organic fertilizers? I use Fertrell in my regular e - Box soil so planned to use it with the coir. Besides the Fertrell I always add some gypsum, kelp, worm poop, and fish with kelp fertilizers and some Planters II which has a lot of natural minerals.

I don't know. It would be the salt content of the ferts...maybe by reputation you can find out? i know MG is bad.

AlohaHoya - If you are going to make a claim like that, I would like you to explain your findings.i.e. Where did your coir come from? That's very important. How much fertilizer did you use, what kind of containers, etc,etc,etc. Where did you get facts on re attracting salts, or is it your opinion, what was you horrible eperience.

BocaBob

I haven't had any bad experiences with coco coir and that is all I use. Check out my threads and look at my pics. Show me some horrible pics in your nursery

Also, did you have your coir tested for salt content? What did you grow?

Have you ever noticed white rings around the bottom of clay pots? That is caused by salt from the fertilizer. It is caused by salt deposit from the fertilizer and also may be a sign that you are not watering heavily enough. Water should be entered into the container until it seeps out. VERY IMPORTANT but not a problem if you are organic at least for me? A good heavy watering every week or so washes out the salt deposits but also changeing every few years also helps as, if the plant is perennial, as my brugs, they become root bound and must be planted into larger pots and the mix is also changed but I don't believe this to be a hazard to annual veggie growers.

OK...here are some facts and information: I grow hoyas. I know others here who use coir and it is readily available so I decided to try it and I used it en lieu of peat moss in my growing mix (orchid bark, perlite and cinder being the other components). I used the fine coir, not the powdery stuff - hoyas like a lot of air around their roots. I rinsed the coir in at least 3 waters until I could taste no salt in the water.

I was using Osmocote as the fertilizer. Now I know that it has a quirky release time and after 4 months I reapplied it, not knowing that the original was probably not spent. The plants started getting root rot.

I took my soil to the University Extension service (I am a Master Gardener connected to the Extension Service) and it was analyzed with a reading of 700. The chief plant pathologist told me it was way over (10 times?) the high bar for saline.

After repotting all 3000 plants I stopped getting the rot and the plants have grown well. This was 3 years ago, so I have no photos...but it was grim!!!!!

Osmocote is not an organic fertilizer, not is Miracle Grow. T-Plant, if we are organic gardeners do you need to flush out as much with the watering? I've never really noticed a salt build up in my e-boxes.

OK, now I possibly know your problem. It has been found that coconuts grown near the ocean have a high saline content. The coconut coir that is most widely in the world today is from inland plantations with a very low saline content. I f the coconut coir you used was readily available (if it was from Hawaii), and not Sri lanka or India, that explains the high saline content, and should not be used. All reputable firms that sell coir today sell from the inland source. Could I be right?

BocaBob

The coir here comes from Sri Lanka, and Thailand. My salt content was so high...that I am sure it was a combination of the Osmocote (won't touch the stuff now) and the coir absorbing the excess salts. But that is here...and you have different conditions and suppliers. I just add a word of caution about the salts in the fertilizers. Even Chicken Poop has salts!!!!

One last thing- Have you read any articles about this salt problem with coconut coir?

BocaBob

Organic fertilizers are safer but it has to be used more frequently and in more quantity and is far more expensive than chemical. I use both on occasion but am cautious with both. Sometimes the organic is not fast enough for particular situations. I am not a master gardener so can only speak from my own very hard learned experiences. Afterawhile, usually years, salt will accumulate and mix or soil must be flushed heavily or changed if possible and I can only imagine the horror and expense that AlohaHoya went thru! So far I really enjoy the ease with working with Bob's Coir and am looking forward to placing it in all my EBs. Afterall, look at Bob's results? Pictures don't lie and my DIL brother went over to his home to buy some products and was totally impressed with all
his success and plant quality and needless to say he is hooked on the gro bags and coir.

No, but then again I wouldn't be looking for articles on it. I know the Plant Pathologist said it is iffy re: the quality. Our problem here is that we have limited selections of materials...and those are quite a bit more expensive than what you guys pay... I would love to use it....but once burned twice shy, as they say. I do know that Coir is a by product of the coconut milk industry and that coconuts grow at low elevations mostly close to the shore...often rafts of coconuts are floated along, pulled by a boat, to staging areas.

But, Hey...I don't mean to rain on your parade. Your photos are terrific and proof enough that it works for vegetables and whatever else you are growing....

AlohaHoya, if your were using coir from some years back (as I was) your problem would most likely be from the saline and EC of the coir. When it was first introduced to the States (early '90's) (and Hawaii?) it wasn't treated the same as it is today. Also, ya'll are correct in that the origin of the coir came into play, with Mexican coir not being as pure as that from Sri Lanka and Thailand.

Most of us are familiar with the term "pH" and how important it is. Some of us are also familiar with "CEC" and how it affects our plants. Unfortunately the term and idea of "EC" is not in most of our vocabulary and growing experience. EC refers to electrical conductivity and has to do with the amount of nutrients/salts in a solution. Coir has a naturally high EC; that being the case it is recommend that it be rinsed to help remove the salts. In the early days this was not done but fortunately it is now considered a common treatment, rinsing the coir before processing, drying, compacting, etc.

As for it "reattracting salts" (sic), that is also one of the traits of coir, much more so than that of peat. This is yet another reason to pay attention to what plant foods/fertilizers you use. Some are higher in salts than others. (As an aside, Tplant is correct in stating that organic plant foods normally contain less salts than our man-made fertilizer so you have a great window of time to work with them there. I'd suggest be aware of fertilizers that simply state "contains organic ingredients" though as some products will combine organic products with chemical man-made products then flash a big ORGANIC label on the front.)

There has been some great research on the use of coir over the past years by Ag universities. If you are interested I'd suggest searching not for "articles" but rather "research" and "reports" by some of them (Cornell, TAMU, etc).

From my perspective, it is like many other products, you need to learn how to best use it, what its idiosyncrasies are (if any) and what conditions you are growing in.

Sorry to get so "scientifical" on ya. I really am just a dirt farmer (but have an avid interest in research, growing plants/food, and sharing)!

Shoe
Oh yeh, regarding Osmocote and other CRF's (controlled release fertilizer), nowadays the release of the fertilizer is not just controlled by the addition of moisture but also the temperature of the soil/growing medium; low temps inhibit release, higher temps allow it. And of course other factors come into play (amount of water, the medium and how it accepts/holds/drains water, for example). So, Aloha, you might have been inundated with more factors than you wished thrown upon you. I'm so glad you took the time to have a test and discovered the problem. I can't imagine losing all those hoyas! Ya done good!

(Edited for punctuation...it's this speed typing, ya know.)
Shoe

This message was edited Nov 23, 2008 12:20 AM

Really good information, Horseshoe...this happened about 3 years ago, maybe 4. I did manage to save most of the plants...made new cuttings etc. but my goodness it was a lot of repotting!!!

TPlant why are you trying the CocoCoir? Is it a much cheaper alternative than potting soil?

kanita -- I have severe osteoarthritis in my shouders and my right ankle. Extremely painful at times and carrying 50 or 60 lb bags of container mix like Jungle Growth which is an excellent product for EBs but extremely heavy and painful for me to lug around. The coir comes in a square 12" x 12" x 6" block and weighs 12 lbs so can be carried over to a large container rehydrated and shoveled into my EBs or planters plus It does not require Dolomitic lime which weighs another 40 lbs, when I can not find anymore as it seems to have been discontinued at my Lowes, so I have to buy it in 5 lb bags which cost the same price as a 40 lb sack as the coir is PH of 6.5 which is perfect. So the difference is the stress of the weight and eliminating the dolomite. Wish I had this coir years ago but I have great plans for future use! By the way, one block fills one and a half EBs.

Thanks so much for the infor Tplant. You are always so helpful and introducing me to new things. I am off to my Lowes to see if they have it as weeds got into my EB's, being in a community garden it seems weeds are even more of a problem, and I have replaced potting soil so many times that I haven't used my EB's yet this season, so this gives me new inspiration.

Kanita -- How do weeds get into your EBs? Do you not use a cover?

Tplant, since you are not using dolomitic lime in your coir did you ever decide to add any calcium from another source for your tomatoes/peppers, etc?

Or since you are using Miracle Gro from time to time did any of ya'll out there check to see if it contains calcium? (If so that would help to ward off BER.)

Aloha, I commend you on all that repotting! I could use you here on the farm!

Shoe

Hi Shoe, There is no stated calcium in Miracle Gro on the label. This is becoming a important question because the fertilizer I'm using contains 5% calcium and I'm adding Epsom salt to get magnesium. Maybe this is why I am not having any BER issues. I know Tplant uses 10-10-10 in his Earthboxes. I don't know if it contains any calcium. Pop in here any time Tplant.

BocaBob

Thanks, Bob! And no, there is no calcium added to standard chem ferts (10-10-10).

Maybe Tplant would be better off replacing the M-Gro with your hydro fert to get the calcium. I keep having this terrible feeling that a few months down the road he'll end up with BER because of not adding calcium. Not needing to use dolomite lime w/coir because coir has a neutral pH may be tricking some folks into thinking that means they don't need to add calcium (which is why the EB folks recommended the lime in EB's in the first place, i.e., for the calcium and not for the pH adjustment).

Thanks for chiming in, Bob. Am looking forward to more of your pics and your VERY varied container garden! Sure looks good to me!

Shoe

Thanks Shoe, and you are probably right on. I think too many people think the Lime is for Ph adjustment and the EB people don't really discuss it, they just tell you to use it. Do you think most mixes (peat based) are ph adjusted already? I was of the belief that lime was needed to up the pH. I've learned so much this year through DG and the internet.

BocaBob

I just want to add that this all has to do with container gardening. I have been told that calcium and magnesium is usually found in sufficient quantities when gardening in the ground(mother earth). Nothing is usually available in peat mixes and coir, and you bettter add all nutrients for healthy crops.

BocaBob

Epsom Salts makes a difference however one chooses to plant.

"Do you think most mixes (peat based) are ph adjusted already?"

Yes. Peat based potting mixes normally have lime added to bring the pH up to par. This is normally listed on the ingredients.

And yes, in the ground magnesium is normally found in sufficient quantities, keeping mind in some areas of the Country there is sometimes too much mg (which is why Epsom's is not recommended for those areas) while other areas may be lacking (for some reason I think out West but don't quote me on it). As for calcium, it too is most often readily available from the ground but BER is not often caused by the unavailability of calcium but rather from it getting locked up in a plant., possibly due to environmental factors. (Our smartest agro-scientists are still trying to figure that one out.)

"Nothing is usually available in peat mixes and coir, and you better add all nutrients for healthy crops."

Actually, coir contains a high amount of potassium which should be taken into account because too much will lock up calcium. Should someone want to add calcium to coir it would be best either go the route you are using (liquid fert) or by adding gypsum (not lime).

Hope this helps! (And you have me wanting to order some more coir so I can play with it and join ya'll in your experiments!)

Best!
Shoe

Good info Shoe!!!!!!!

I live in a limestone area where calcium deposit from the water is a real problem. In this area, chlorosis (yellowing of leaves) is ever present and must be treated with iron supplements.

Understanding my situation makes me wonder what effect if any the trace elements in your water may have in regards to your concerns.