Anytime bacteria gets up into the udder, mastitis can occur.
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/mastitis/mastitisforms.shtml
The Goat Thread for General Dusty, Ma'am. (salute!)
When you put your hand on her right side, do you feel any movement? I used to sit w/ my goats and feel the kids moving inside-you can actually feel feet, ect just like when a person's pregnant! Some goats bag-up just before they kid so expressing milk might not happen until she gives birth.
You may want to prepare for a kid just in case. Separate her from everyone else-do you have a stall you can keep her in? You don't want other goats trampling any newborns. Any water buckets should be placed up on blocks so if she does deliver she doesn't accidently deliver her/him into the bucket. Clean bedding. I keep iodine tincture on hand to dip the naval after they are born(to keep bacteria out). Ok I'll stop!
Another thought just occured to me. Place your fingers down by her tail on either side of her rump. When a doe is close to birthing the ligaments will loosen and become soft so you can push your fingers down-try it on her than another goat to see if you feel the difference.
I am just not sure about the ligament thing. I think she feels similar to the other goats so maybe she isn't pregnant. I also gently pressed in on her sides where she is bulging and couldn't really feel anything specific. I figure if she was all full of baby goat(s) I should feel something as you say. I looked carefully at her parts but there is no discharge at this time. Maybe she is faking it?!
Her udder does feel warm and full though, and although the left side is not as swollen as the right, they are both very warm and feel full. I never felt her udder before because I didn't know that there would be a need. I feel bad about that now because I don't know exactly what it felt like before.
Oh goodness me, this is a conundrum!
Clare was she dry when you got her? I mean not producing any milk at all? Her udder does look full but that teat looks inflamed to me. I think Sue is right and there may be mastitis there. Your feed store (Tractor Supply or Country Max types) should carry something for it. If you aren't totally comfortable give your vet a call and ask what you should do for it. She may or may not be pregnant since does can look really big in the belly (especially ones that have previously given birth) and not be pregnant. If she's getting better food now than before it may be that. Movement (unless you can feel the kid) doesn't indicate a baby cause their ruminants (stomachs) do move around quite a bit as they're digesting food.
What's her history? Were there any other adult males there? btw you referred to her kids as babies. They aren't! They're adult goats too!!
MollyD
Clare touch her daughter in the udder so you can tell what a normal warmth in that area should feel like. A goat's normal temp is 104. Do you have a thermometer? If not you should get one made for animals (a bit longer than human ones). Cost under $4.00 usually. It will help your vet decide if they need to come out (costly) or not if you can tell them the goats temperature.
MollyD
Oh, Claire, I hope you figure out what is up with Greta. I know nothing about goats, but am watching to see what happens
Sheila
I hate to say it but she may be pregnant and also have mastitis on one side. We had a doe that her first pregnancy(and our first time dealing w/ a pregnant doe!) she developed mastitis on one side before she even kidded(the only time we ever dealt w/ mastitis, thankfully!). We were lucky enough that our vet made barn visits for only $35! Of course this was almost 17 years ago!
He said that we had to milk her out abit everyday as she produced her milk too early and she was bursting at the seams(her milk was just dripping from her teats). He gave her IV penicillin and then we had to give her shots(IM) for the next five days. Also warm compresses twice a day. Thankfully that half wasn't completely ruined although it never gave as much milk as the other half. Their udders do get slightly warmer sometimes when the milk is coming but if it's very warm or hot you may have a problem.
You can feel her ruminate on her left side and her babies on the right. Of course the babies are not always moving so you may not feel them.
This message was edited Oct 6, 2008 10:34 AM
Has her belly dropped, sides hollowing?
Molly - yes she was completely dry when we got her. No milk. Her last kidding was the one that produced the daughter, Ptera, and she is 1. So definitely no milk. No other males other than her son (2 year old) who is a wether. We double checked and he has no sac. He is very small compared to her. I am not sure when they did the fixing - I suppose it's possible that it was done late, but there is no sign of any "fresh" fixing of him. It's all well healed etc. They told us she had never been around intact males since after her last kidding. With her son's size, I don't even see how he could mount her. It would be like a chihuahua mounting an English sheepdog. And yes, I have a habit of calling them her babies and I know they are adults, it's just easier to think of their relationships as she is the mom and they are the babies, but I know they are not! LOL!
Complicating factor is that both babies are completely skittish and unaccustomed to handling. We cannot generally get near to them at all. Greta is the same way but is in a smaller enclosure right now, which makes it somewhat easier, although it is still a trick to catch her. Once you have her, she is OK. None of the other approachable goats have udders of any size because none of them have kidded before. Oh, I guess that's not true, the older nubians I could check. I will do it after work.
I think I may call the vet anyway. I would like to learn to treat mastitis myself, but this first time, I probably need confirmation from a vet, and then he can also help me determine if she is pregnant.
Belly dropped and sides hollowing? Hmmm...hard to say. Maybe not. When I compare picture 1 in this thread, and then the third/fourth pictures in my series of teat/udder pics, she looks about the same, I think. I will take another shot at home this evening like the first one to see if I can see differences.
If any of the older Nubians were being milked then they have kidded before.
It's not normal to wether males after 4 months of age. I guess it might be done but it's not normal. As to size difference that wouldn't matter to an intact male. His 'member' is enclosed in the sheath you see but it's quite long and flexible. It can really travel! Does have been made pregnant by bucks in the next pen going through the wire!!!
MollyD
Boy that was a little more info than I needed while eating lunch. Ha Ha Ha! Okay doine eating now, please continue with all gross and nasty goat business, LOL
Sheila
Sorry about that Sheila. I did ponder how I was going to word that so as not to offend sensibilities ! Difficult topic to word delicately LOL.
MollyD
You'd have to see it to believe it!!lol! Couldn't have worded it better Molly! lol! Sorry to be giggling but it makes me think of everyone's reaction when the billy is showing off! Deep Gasp and eeewwww! lol!
Sorry I think I need to get my morning coffee....
Claire, do you have a vet that does farm calls or do you have to transport her? It's great when you can find one that comes out to you. You know they really love the animals when they drive out to you.
We tried a vet who did farm calls. We didn't like him at all. I didn't feel at all confident about him. He was very vague and admitted he hadn't seen that many goats. That was the only vet taking new large animal patients. So instead, we are going to take them to Iowa State University which has a large vet college and a large animal clinic with people who specialize in goats. It's a 45 minute drive but worth it. I hope to learn my own methods from that. There are others who will drive out but they just have too many clients now. Sort of sad. We need large animal vets in Iowa, big time.
If that vet thought that goats qualify as "large animals" he was indeed the wrong one for the job! They're not considered large animals but rather small livestock (along with sheep) which is odd when you consider that a full grown buck can weigh up to 400 pounds!
You might use that college to find someone closer who knows goats cause there will be times when 45 mins will be too far and you'll need someone who can come out to you instead.
MollyD
Excellent point, Molly. The college considers them "small ruminants" but the vets around here are all either "companion animal" (which means dog, cat, rabbit) or "large animal" and most of those are only cow, horse. I have found 3 vets in about a 100 mile radius who handle goats, 2 of which aren't taking new clients, and the one I spoke of above.
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Anyway, this is the VERY EMBARRASSING truth about Greta the goat. And I must say, I feel like **such** an idiot and hope you will all get a good giggle out of the story because I am having to laugh at myself.
So, I went to the TSC waaaaay across town today to load up on goat stuff. I bought mineral licks and worming pellets and the special tubes of stuff to put straight into the teat for mastitis, and also the penicillin and needles and everything. I bought goat collars and padded overalls for us both for winter and some chicken stuff too. I went nearly nuts in there and spent nearly $500. Wow. So then I head home with all my stuff and I'm mentally psyching up to give my first injection. I'm not scared, just wanting so badly to do the right thing for my goat.
So, I get home, and Kelly had her separated out and we were all set. I read the side of the penicillin bottle and poor Greta was all freaky and jumpy and I felt so bad, so I sat with her for a bit trying to make her feel calmer. As I sat with her, I felt her udder and it was SO firm and warm and I just felt like this infection was going berserk in her and I felt soooo worried. I said to Kelly that I should try to see if there was any discharge from the teats, so I did a little squeeze, and WOAH baby....that milk came flying out of that teat and squirted me right in the face. She was so full, I milked for nearly half an hour (of course, I am also a complete klutz at this process because this was the very first time I ever milked anything at all). We had probably 4 or 5 cups in the bucket. We'd had her for nearly a week! Turns out that her offspring (who are adults, 1 and 2 years old) were sneaking a little snack now and then - enough to keep her milking I guess. So she is still lactating!! And the reason it was all swollen and red and warm was because the darn thing was full as a balloon, and we didn't realize the "kids" were still drinking. Now it is back to normal size and not looking nearly as red. Poor thing, nearly bursting.
Maaaaan, I feel soooo silly! But what a great learning experience. And now we have a milker without even knowing it!! Kelly will give it a try tomorrow and we will filter the milk and heat it up (we don't have our pasteurizer yet) and see how it is! Too funny.
So now the penicillin is in the fridge (expires 2010) unopened, the needles are put away, and I am sitting here very red faced and embarrassed, but all the better for this experience. Thank you so much to everybody for your help and advice. I am so glad she doesn't have mastitis (I don't think - the milk looked/smelled normal) and yet I am so glad to know what to do if she ever does have it.
By the way, the chickens LOVED the milk. :-)
Claire
Please don't feel silly. I would have thought the sellers would have said something considering you've never owned goats before. Bad sellers! It's amazing how some dams just don't kick off their off-spring! I would separate them for a few weeks to get them to stop nursing off of her. They know a good thing when they see it!
It's good to have the penicillin and needles on hand-the store isn't always open when you need it!
Just a tip(if I'm repeating myself, sorry!): Make sure you wash her udder before milking, discard the first two or three streams of milk, and use a teat dip after milking to keep bacteria invading the teat. Strain your milk(filters should be at your local feed store) and cool down immediately! I can't give advice on pasteurizing as we always drank it raw.
Your experience reminds me of one goat we had. She would drink her own milk. She'd lift her hind leg up and drink away! Silly goat! We saw her with milk dripping off her chin when day then after watching her for a bit we saw what she was up to!
Sue
Thanks Sue - great tips on milking. We are new to it and of course last night we didn't even try the milk because first we didn't have a clean bucket and secondly we thought she had mastitis at first so didn't want to drink it anyway. When the milk came out so fresh and nice smelling, we kind of regretted using the unclean bucket (had hay bits in it) but the chickens sure enjoyed the windfall.
I think the sellers had no idea that her offspring were still nursing. She wasn't under heavy supervision and was free ranging in about 30 acres of pasture. We did separate them after we got them to try to get the offspring acclimated to human handling (which isn't working very well!). I guess that's why her udder got so full after we had separated them.
Too funny about your goat who drank her own milk! Clever girl!
Claire
Sue if you want a goat to lactate would having the older kids nurse off her be harmful? How would this differ from breeding her to get milk?
Claire I hope you didn't toss that milk! If it happens again that you have dirty milk you can strain it and freeze it for kids if you should ever have an emergency where you need to bottle feed a kid. I have some in my freezer like that.
I am so jealous about milk goats but my hands couldn't do the twice a day milking so I can't have them.
MollyD
Oh Claire- I can see your red face all the way here in Missouri. Ha Ha! But what a good thing to be red faced about. Now you have milk! I am so glad that you didn't have a problem on your hands.
How are your new chickies getting used to home?? I had so many crows this morning, it was like having an orchestra playing.
Sheila
Molly - I didn't toss the milk, but I did divide it amongst the current 8 chicken pens in little dishes. They LOVED it. It didn't occur to me to freeze it for a kid. I will definitely keep that in mind. Might freeze some anyway just as a safekeeping measure - that is a really good idea.
We just purchased the Udderly EZmilker. It is goat milking device. It hasn't arrived yet but will let you know. A lot easier on the hands. Plus easy and quick to sanitize. It's just for one goat at a time. Not a huge system or anything.
http://www.udderlyezllc.com/
Now we will be milking her every day. I'm not sure that she is producing a LOT because it did take her a week to fill up like that. She seems to be only lactating on one side, also. I think the most ideal situation would be to breed her again if we wanted full milk production levels. But for now, we are happy with the smaller levels just to try it and get used to milking.
Sheila - the new chickies seem to be settling in. Of course, they are still quarantined so no introductions for a while, but they enjoyed some goat milk last night so they must be feeling good today! Sour crop chicken is right as rain, so that's a blessing too because I was worried about her. Such an easy fix, now that I know what to do. We currently have the cochin breeding pairs in the outbuilding and what a racket in there when they are all crowing. I'm wondering how big of an enclosure I will need if I want to have both pairs in the pen, with some other frizzled hens.
Claire
Here are the new maybe cinnamon queens?
Compared to Rosie's feathers
Oops wrong thread. I hijacked my own goat thread with chicken pix. LOL!
So, we tried to milk Greta again this evening. Nada. Nothing. Not a drop. I guess the thing must be that she's lactating but not anywhere near "full" capacity. We had her for a week or longer before this latest incident (i.e. mastitis scare turning into full udder!) and that was how long it took for her udder to fill. So we will try again in a couple of days, before it gets so full that it looks uncomfortable for her. I guess there is no way to increase that volume or at least make it fill more quickly?
Claire
I am sure I will be corrected very quickly claire, but I believe they will milk whatever is being used:
ie, today a kid will nurse a cup, tomorrow she will make a cup plus a drop.., the kid will drink the cup plus the drop, she will produce a bit more.. so ultimitly you could train her to drop (right wording??) much more milk than she currently is.. of course it all depends on what her maximuim is.. and the fact that she has not kidded in over a year, wouldn't you be freshening a goat about now???
I am answering this not with my goat wisdom, but with my human/common sense health class memory... anyone else??
That is what I thought too, frans. Generally the more you strip them, the more they produce--within reason. I have heard of family cows that produced for years without freshening. But I think that is the exception and if you want real production you have to breed them occasionally.
Right? Someone with milk goat experience jump in here!
Right, frans and Cat! She may dry up after that last milking since it's been awhile. Depends on the goat. If she does happen to produce more, it may be only a few more milkings before she completely dries up. and if she does kick back into production it won't be to full capacity( it depends on the goat and time frame). Are you looking to breed her? If you are, I would just keep an eye on her udder and if it gets full then I would milk her partially just to make the udder soft so she's not uncomfortable.
Love the pix of your chickens-sooo pretty!
woohooo... hey cat, we got one right!!!!
Thanks Fran, Cat & Sue - we will keep an eye on it. Not intending to breed her this year because we have 3 pygmys currently bred, so that will be enough I think. We'll just keep an eye on her udder and ensure it's not too full.
We bought an "UdderlyEZ" milker and it arrived yesterday. We were so excited to test it out. :-(
Sue - those chickens are molting rescues, and really not very pretty! The pic of Rosie is good, but only to show her back feathers. Here's my very pretty favorite chick right now!
CMox
I looked at the link you gave for the UdderlyEZ and am wondering if it will work for pygmies. Are you planning to use it on your pygmies? If so, let me know if it works; I may get one. DH has a really difficult time milking ours. I do okay, but if it's easier on the hands I'm all for it! ☺
I haven't been on DG much lately - mostly just lurking here and a few other threads. Tomorrow marks a full week of milking for us. Because of some changes here and my taking a job away from home for a few months, we decided to milk the same schedule as fiascofarm.com. We separate the kids from mom at night and milk in the morning. The kids are then with mom all day and take care of the evening milking for us. It seems to be working well for us. I would appreciate any comments positive or negative as this is the first time we have ever had goats.
Only one doe is milking right now; the other should be kidding within the week, and we are getting half a quart at the morning milking.
Wow, that's a neat system Jasmerr! I like that idea. I'll have to talk to Kelly about that.
The udderlyEZ is supposed to work even on Nigerian Dwarf goats. If you look at the link, you will see that you can order it for goats/sheep or for Nigerian dwarf goats. I called them to ask what the difference was between the sheep/goat and ND versions. The ONLY difference is the size of the bottles. They said some people had trouble with the larger bottle on their small NDs because the bottle with milker attached is too tall to fit under the udder of the goat. So they offer it with smaller bottles, or you can just buy the milker with one size bottles and then buy the other size of bottles separately. He also said some people use the one with the large bottles and sort of hold the teat to the side a bit. Apparently this is easier on a milking stand. Will let you know how it works but our pygmies aren't due until December so it'll be a little while.
Claire
After looking at your udderEZ system. The redneck in me wonders if a person could rig up a breastpump to do the same, but only be electrically powered. I know the ins and outs of breast pumps and would love to hear any comments on this idea. BTW, I have 3 breast pumps no longer in use if anyone wants to give it a whirl.
Sheila
The more I thought about separating the kids from their mom, the more I liked the idea of morning milking only; at least for now. We are plenty enough milk for the three of us, and it keeps our evenings free.
jasmerr how old are your kids now? How many hours do they go between their evening feeding and the next?
MollyD
They are three weeks old now. We leave them with mom until around 9:00-10:00pm and then put them back with mom around 8:00am or before. They are eating grain, hay, and pasturing with the does.
Well I don't raise dairy goats but with meat goats we never separate the kids from their moms till they're ready to wean. I looked at the Fiasco page on milking and kids. Noticed that the kids are kept alone with other kids at night (no does) and offered grain etc free choice. That means no does to compete with them for food or push them away from it. I also notice Fiasco doesn't start doing this till the kids are two weeks old. Still that's really young. I'm surprised it doesn't weaken the bond between the doe and her kid.
MollyD
Most people I know who milk their does separate them and bottle feed - unless I'm totally misunderstanding them.
Yes they do but bottle feeding means the kids don't return to the doe at any time. The bond is permanently removed and the kid bonds to the person who feeds it. btw if you look at Fiasco's bottle feeding schedule for kids the age of yours they're being fed 4 times a day which means every 6 hours so I'm seeing a conflict in the information they're giving on this subject. I looked at other sources where the kids were being bottle raised (no mom) and for the first month they were being fed 3 times a day which is every 8 hours. That gap of 10 to 11 hours is way too much for kids the age of yours. I suspect that Fiasco gets out to the milking much earlier than the 8 am you are using as an estimate. You may want to email her and get a clarification on what time frame she is actually on.
MollyD