Iris copyrights & patents

I have thought about the issue of a hybridizer with a cultivar registered to his name
having the same cultivar sold by another vendor. Are they permitted to use the same
name or do they come up with a fictitious name and sell the original under the different
name. Roses are patented so why not irises?

You see a lot of "junk" dealers selling iris that do not match the name they assign to
the pictures or package. Are they avoiding a royalty due the original hybridizer?
Since I retired I apparently have too much idle time on my hands but the question
is legitimate. Perhaps some of the pro growers would like to opine..

Do the hybridizers receive a royalty? I know when I was looking for Mr. Moores' cultivars and sent him a list of where I had found them, he was surprised. He had thought a few of his were extinct and said he was happy to see they were still available. I thought the only way the hybridizers made their money was from their own sales of rhizomes, such as to the growers and their own customers. But yes, I'd love to know the answer to this question too.

For the roses, I know how disappointed a lot of us Southern gardeners were when the copyright issues caused MerryGro to go out of business. They were one of the only growers to graft on Fortuniana root stock for a very reasonable cost ($14 per bush versus $25+ per bush from other growers), and they had an agreement with Jackson and Perkins. But, the hybridizers got in the middle of the mix due to royalties and MerryGro ended up closing its doors. Tremendous loss to Southern rose gardeners!!! Though I understand the appropriateness of the hybridizer being compensated, I would hate to see red tape cause difficulty in obtaining wonderful iris cultivars too. Ev

Once a hybridizer registers and introduces an iris. Introduces meaning he /she has offered the named iris for sale to the public, anyone who buys and increases that particular iris has the right to sell the iris under the original name given by the hybridizer. The hybridizer does not receive a royalty, but makes more $ off of the iris the first and second year, when prices are high and no one else has had the time to buy, grow and increase the iris. When registering an iris, the name must be submitted for approval by the registar of the American Iris Society.

I certainly hope anyone selling a registered and named iris uses the same name, otherwise it would become a real mess.

Here's a link to the AIS explaning the process for registering an iris. http://www.irises.org/registration.htm

Dan

This message was edited Aug 26, 2008 9:21 PM

If a plant is patented, that legally prevents others from reproducing the protected plant by cuttings, tissue culture, or any other method of asexual propagation without the written authorization or licensing of the patent holder. I'm assuming this also holds for rootball and rhizome division.

There is, however, no regulation against using the plant in sexual reproduction, so the seed or pollen from a patented variety may be used without permission and the offspring from these seeds are free of any patent regulations.

Trademarking is different, in that it protects only the trademark name. Someone could propagate a trademarked plant, but not call it the same variety name. So if you buy a trademarked plant, you can propagate it asexually and even sell the propagated plants as long as you don't call them by the trademarked name or get your own trademark for those plants. You can, and should, use the plants cultivar name, just not the trademark name.

For instance take Echinacea Big Sky™ 'Twilight' http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/95745/ (I couldn't find an Iris that worked for this example) ^_^

This is a patented plant, so you can grow it and enjoy it, but you cannot asexually propagate it by rootball division, tissue culture etc. You can save seeds from the plant and grow them out, and the offspring from those seeds are free of patent regulations.

If it were not patented, you could propagate it asexually and even sell the plants, but not as Echinacea Big Sky™ 'Twilight', only as Echinacea 'Twilight'

Registering a plant is different yet, and zacattack explained it better than I could.

You know, I have wondered why it is that iris growers allow others to sell the plants they have registered without a fee, and I believe it is because the folks who owned the parents might also be able to claim a fee and as a result the whole hybridizing business would be stalled.
It's just a guess. I don't actually know.

Pajaritomt, good point!

As Joan said, you cannot reproduce a patented plant by asexual propagation without permission, however at this time there are no patented irises.

We had quite a discussion on this previously on another gardening site.

I would expect it will be coming, though, as many hostas, and now some daylies are patented.

Dan said "I certainly hope anyone selling a registered and named iris uses the same name, otherwise it would become a real mess."

Unfortunately that's not the case. I have purchased named irises from wholesalers, and they are not as described in the AIS registry, and are getting into public sales quickly due to the price the wholesaler sells them for. The garden centers that buy from the wholesalers do not know to, or do not take the time to look and see if the iris matches the registry, or often they are sold before they even bloom. And most garden centers buy from these wholesalers. Often times the wholesalers just seem to make up a name to suit the iris, and sell it under that name. So it may well be a registered iris, but the wholesaler has choosen to sell it under the name they choose.

I recently bought some Japanese iris, Imperial Magic from a wholesaler, and they were all plain purple, the true Imperial Magic being purple and white. And I know these wholesalers sell to many, many nurseries.

Here's the correct Imperial Magic, photo from Ensata Gardens, who are known for their accuracy of beardless iris.

http://www.ensata.com/Japanese/ImperialMagic.jpg

And here's one from another company. Not the correct one.

http://www.vanbloem.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=plants.plantDetail&plant_ID=893

And the one I received 20 of were all plain purple.

This same wholesaler, and many others that are not so diligent about accuracy sell bearded and beardless both.

This message was edited Aug 26, 2008 11:26 PM

I have actually asked hybridizers, not the ones who have catalogs, but individuals who hybridize, register and let a bigger house sell, if they see any money from their hybrids. Except for the ones they sell themselves, they make very little. Like 25 cents and that is if they supply the plants.
The bottom line is that iris isn't a money making venture for most hybridizers. The ones with many varieties and catalogs and websites may be different -- I really don't know if they make much money or not, but he ordinary hybridizer who turns his/her plants over to someone else to sell makes very little. They do it for the joy of creating something new. And I am very grateful to them.

I think the people that hybridize the daylilies, and the hostas, for the most part do it because they love it also.

But at some point there will come the iris person, just like the daylily person who wants the money that patenting the iris will give.

What a shame PollyK that a grower would rip people off so blatantly. The pictures tell the story. I would hope that nurseries would shun that wholesalers permanently. That is an unscrupulous practice. I guess one must just buy from the original hybridiers which probably costs more.

You are no doubt right, PollyK , and I understand why people want to earn money from their work. On the other hand, it certainly takes the fun out of the lily, daylily etc. business. I hope it doesn't happen too soon.

I hope it doesn't either, Betty.

Unfortunately it is not just one wholesaler. There are many of them, some in the dutch bulb industry, but also some big wholesale warehouses in the US. Unfortunately most garden centers can't afford the mnoney or time to buy plants from the hybridizers, or from upstanding companies like Ensata Gardens. They buy the plants for pennies, where they would have to spend 10.00 or so at Ensata for the JIs. They are in the business of making money, and if the garden center sells an iris for 10.00 and has to pay Ensata 10.00, there's no profit. And most of the garden centers don't propagate.

pollyk, do you find that the growers listed on the AIS website links are for the most part reliable in sending rhizomes that match the named varieties they are purported to be? Now I'm worrying about the 220 rhizomes I've got sitting out there in pots!!! I'm a newbie at this, and I just assumed that if the link was on the AIS website, they would be reputable and reliable. What's your opinion? Thanks for any info! Ev

Hi Ev,

I specialize in beardless iris, but yes, I think most growers are very reputable. Mistakes can be made, but I would think they are usually few by the bearded iris growers.

Do you know how to check Garden Watchdog? That will tell you whether other gardeners have found that particular grower to be accurate as to named varieties.

Polly

If you want a true to name iris, buy from a reputable seller, many of which are listed in Garden Watchdog, or the Commercial listings of the American Iris Society website. Yes Ev... most of these folks are reliable, but may make an occasional mistake. Here's that link... http://www.irises.org/links.htm#Commercial%20Directory/Listing

And I strongly agree with pollyk... If you buy iris from a wholesaler, or garden shop that is supplied by a wholesaler you may not get what you thought you were getting. This has always been a problem at the big chain store garden shops. And yes, this is a mess that has been going on for years. If I had a garden full of mis-named iris, I would not be a happy camper. If I didn't care about the name, just wanted a pretty flower and had no intentions of hybridizing it would be no big deal. I would hate to see folks start hybridizing with mis-named iris and use the wrong name in the ancestry.

I've never heard, even a rumor, of iris hybridizers getting a patent on their creation. Someone may know more about this... I guess it's possible, but the system in place by the AIS is working quite well now, and has for many years. Let's hope it stays that way.

Dan

This message was edited Aug 26, 2008 11:23 PM

I want to add, Dan, that I have heard no rumors of patenting of irises happening either. And hope it does not.

But I had not heard of any daylilies being patented until recent years either. Now there are quite a few. Coming right after hostas started being patented seems to make patenting of plants previously not patented a trend.

pollyk... you provided some good examples of mis-named iris being sold by wholesalers. I wish all the folks reading this would just stay away... regardless of price, from anyone selling iris except the reliable sources mentioned in the earlier posts. Once you've bought from one of these friendly folks, you'll never go elsewhere. They normally are generous with extras, and expensive bonus iris. You wont see that practice from the wholesalers, or the garden shops they supply.

I haven't been in tune with what's happening with Hostas and Daylilies... I hate to see that... even as a hybridizer of bearded iris.

Dan

Zac, I bought all of my rhizomes from growers listed on the AIS site. That was actually the first reference I consulted. I also joined AIS and also the Checklist so that I could research everything ahead of time. The only exception to purchasing from growers linked on the AIS site was the rhizomes I purchased from the recordkeeper for the Reblooming Iris Society, and I would certainly think she keeps accurate records of what she is growing! I did veer from that policy and take a rare chance today on a company that I had not heard of before... but that was to purchase just three rhizomes of one cultivar -- Cliffs of Dover -- because I've been searching for it since March and this is the ONLY grower I've ever seen have it listed. So, yes, I pounced on it no matter who the grower was!!!

No garden centers around here sell rhizomes or even potted bearded iris... literally NONE! All the nurseries here are of the belief that no varieties will thrive in our climate, so they don't want the headache of selling a plant or rhizome and then having unhappy customers come back complaining the next spring. Very, very rarely you will see a potted bearded iris at a national grocery store chain, blooming around Easter or Mother's Day... but that's the only time I've seen them for sale here at all... and then they generally do not have a name attached to them anyway.

Polly, I also consulted the Garden Watchdog... I've left feedback on it for quite a few vendors in the past. It's a very handy resource!

It could be two years before any of these bloom, so it's quite a wait before I'll know for sure if I received the correct iris. I feel MUCH better reading that most are reputable!

By wholesalers, what companies do you mean? I assume these are not folks listed on the AIS site...?

You are right BlissfulGarden... the folks listed on the AIS site are iris lovers first, sellers second. You will have a hard time going wrong if you buy from one of these sellers. Although I've only bought from a handful, I am assuming that most are very reliable. Before you buy, check for comments on Garden Watchdog.

The wholesalers... I really don't know where these guys are lurking. Some large growers supply iris in packaged form to stores such as Lowes, Walmart, Home Depot, your local nursery etc. Some of the large bulb companies would also fall into this catagory. pollyk included a link to one above. These folks may be well intentioned, but it seems they are not as careful about matching name to iris when packaging.

220 rhizomes in pots... you sound like me :) If you bought from a grower on the AIS site you should be in good shape. If a mistake was made, they will probably send you the correct iris next season if you let them know.

I hope you enjoy your blooms next spring... Dan

Edited to say... BlissfulGarden, I did not read your post just ahead of the last one. Congratulations on joining the AIS and subscribing to the checklist. You are way ahead of where I was when I first started to get serious about iris around 8 years ago. I hope you find much pleasure in your new found addiction.


This message was edited Aug 27, 2008 12:46 AM

I have been told by some of the older hybridizers that there have been a few TB patented, but nothing in the last 40 + years...

I do think that if there ever comes into play a TRUE RED like santa or christmas red that the hybridizer would be foolish NOT TO PATENT it.

D

Lively and enlightening exchange. My thoughts were a hybridizer spends
about ten years to bring a new cultivar to market from the first seeds.
After all that time, effort and risk, someone puts that name on a package of
junk and sells it.

I have not bought from them yet due to space limitations but I see in
Schreiner's catalog they list the original hybridizer and year of registry
for all their irises plus they guarrantee each one to be true to name.

I can see where it would be ok to purchase a cultivar from a legitimate
vendor and use it for further developement as long as you did not use
the original name as your own except for logging cross parents.

Where any hybridizer makes the money is the it is intro'd, because that year and only that year, only HE/SHE has it...so if the public likes it they recoup most of the time and all he has in it.

Many iris take from cross to selling anywhere from 7 to 30 years...before they have enough or have decided to sell.

If you buy for instance "meow" from Black at Mid America this year, you can grow it, sell it and use it for crosses from this point on.

The brokerage iris are like places that see a black iris and slap a black brokage tag on it and call it maybe "Superstition" while in truth it might be "Before the Storm"

Hope this helps to clarify this.

D

Most reliable sellers of
irises will have the hibridizer's name attached. If a mistake is made, they will correct it. Smaller hybridizers have the fun of creating new plants, producing a particular color or getting a plant which will grow in their conditions. They know they won't be making money. One does like to recover costs if possible. Schreiners will sell you one or two plants if you order them (although it can be embarassing to order a single plant, but that is an internal embarasment). You don't need tons of space. Use a friend's catalog so they won't have the expense of sending one. However iris can be addictive--there goes the lawn!

Nurseries here do sell potted bearded irises and I have bought from them, but only when they are in bloom. The only time I bought one, not in bloom, I got something I didn't want. But when I looked closely, I noticed that someone had moved another tag into the pot. The iris turned out to be the one from the tag I didn't see.
Some of our nurseries to a better job than others in keeping their iris straight. One nursery keeps all the iris of one variety together then puts the another variety several rows away so people won't mix them up.
Another nursery must buy from the large wholesalers. The tags don't state a name but rather say assorted. Oddly enough they are just as expensive as the named irises. I never buy iris at that nursery.
Mostly I use the mail order nurseries and have had excellent luck with most of them. If you keep reading the Iris forum you will get a good idea of which iris growers do a good job. Schreiner's is one of the best, but there are many other wonderful smaller nurseries, many of which don't even have a web presence. If you go to the AIS convention you will learn so much about this and even meet many of the hybridizers. They are mostly pleasant and down-to-earth people with a gleam in their eye when it comes to iris. The term iris addiction didn't come about for nothing!

Ev, the wholesalers names would really not help you, but it's the companies they sell to. Large companies, such as Van Bourgodien, Park Seed, Wayside Gardens, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Local garden centers.

The wholesaler I bought the Japanese iris from is a very reputable wholesaler. He gets his plants from various wholesalers, and then re-wholesales them. So he had no clue he was selling the incorrect iris, and in fact, didn't even know about the Japanese Iris registry. I expect he got the Japanese irises he sold from the dutch bulb growers.

As Dan said, it's absolutely best to buy your irises from the growers.

Dee, thank you for the info on past patents on the irises. Interesting. I just did a search a year or so ago for patented irises and there were none, so obviously the patents expired.

I love Schreiners, but with their amazing breeding program, I wouldn't doubt they would be the first to patent if it ever does happen.

If you're in a garden center and see a colored tag, that's an indication it's from a Dutch grower. I don't know of any iris growers that sell the tags. Dee might know. The only exception I've found so far on the wholesalers accuracy is Walters Gardens, which does provide tags, and their irises have been accurate for me.

If it's a handwritten tag, I would think it might come from a more reputable source or maybe that garden center is lining them out for sale themselves.

Polly, I think that must be changing.

I received tags with my irises from several of the growers this season. Schreiner's and Cooley's both had color tags with a photo of the iris and their company name on the rhizomes they sent to me. A few others, including Sutton's and even a few smaller growers, had preprinted black and white plastic tags with just the name of the iris printed. Ev


This message was edited Aug 27, 2008 9:05 AM

Oh, that's good to know. I would think they may be selling to some nurseries then. I know Schreiners does wholesale. So if you go to a garden center and see a tag from Schreiners or Cooleys that would be a good bet. Thanks for the info.

Some of the bigger iris growers are now buying the nice labels with sometimes even the picture they are NOT cheap.

From personal experience, the ones from Cooleys and Schreiners have their name on them, NOT so with the brokerage iris.

The patents on the iris was LONG ago I believe in the 40's or 50's and there were just a handful so they no longer so up anywhere, I just learned about this during this year.

I do think that and this a personal thought, but whoever comes up with a true red like santa red or christmas red SHOULD patent it...as it has already cost in the millions to date with research at OSU.

D

Well, probably they will patent it, but what if somebody comes up with it after OSU did all the hybridizing leading up to it. It would be a shame if they didn't get the patent on it! Of course, I guess Cooley's has also invested a whole lot in it.

Last I heard here about 2.5 Millon...

D

But that was about 2 years ago that I talked to Rick Ernst about it.

Thanks, Dee.

That's good to know, then, if you happen to be in a garden center and they have iris for sale to see if the grower name is on the tag.

I would still buy directly from the grower. But sometimes you see a nice 3 gallon pot of irises in a garden center......

Those tags aren't cheap. I buy the picture ones of perennials for my nursery, and they add a lot to the cost of the plant.

I buy Schreiner's CE catalog so I can dream during the cold winter months.
My little garden has some nice iris but they are all unmarked as far as names
since most of them would be misnamed anyway. The half price for over $80
from Schreiners looks like a great way to start over completely in a new bed
and KEEP THE TAGS so I will know what they are in the future.

As red has been mentioned above, I have read there is no true red gene in
bearded iris. Anyone coming up with a pure red would be a fool not to
patent it. You would be in the chips big time and known around the world.

Well, compared to y'all, I'm an iris newbie. Irisloverdee has been teaching me about hybridizing. If any of y'all ever get a chance to meet her, you are in for a treat!

Believe if anyone goes to www.irises.org
you can read a history of the American Iris Society. It was formed precisely to help with these mis-naming by the growers and sellers problems, or at least to address it.

Heard at the ENCIS meetings that big box stores use wholesalers who will take any plant that even remotely has a similar color and stick a "big" name on it. Hence, you will seldom see me trading for irises - I'll give them mine, and I will guarantee the right name. But I won't take theirs unless they can guarantee it came from a reputable grower - like, direct from the hybridizer.

There's one seller of iris with a website who actually lists irises for sale who comes right out and says, "this was supposed to be XYZ and it isn't, but it's nice". I feel her frustration - but to me, I'd get rid of the imposter. The pictures looked like they might have been seedlings of the parent, and not great ones. It needs to be better to keep it, not just pretty enough.

When I visited Schreiners last year, I had a chance to ask culture questions to Ray Schreiner, and by the way he's a real sweetie! He mentioned they do pay "royalties" to folks. We got to talking about Joyce and Duane Meeks, he mentioned their intros just didn't get the respect they deserved. I'm glad now that the Meeks are retired that Schreiners is selling some of theirs.

But I do have a background in software production. And i can tell you the patent process is incredibly expensive, far too much for the average small hybridizer to ever get involved with. you are talking specialist lawyers and government processing, so you are talking megabucks. Over $10,000, possibly over $100,000. Copyrighting is cheap, but I don't think you can copyright a plant. Trademarking is more $ than copyrighting, but it's doable.

And by the by, I had a discussion with a worker at Witherspoons Roses. He whispered to me that they think a former employee of theirs took a sprig of a seedling they had in evaluation, and suddenly J&P, their largest competitor for hybridizing, has it out on the market sooner - they don't have the production facilities a J&P has. They are in the process now of having genetic testing done - if the genetics are identical, they were robbed - it's a great rose, Pope John Paul II.

So if it involves big $$, then there's always someone that will steal and cheat. Almost think I'd rather give it away than mess with that. Life is too darn short as it is. But from talking to Keith Keppel, Barry Blyth, the Meeks, Dee Stewart, Anita Morgan, Don and Ginny Spoon, Georgie (at Cooleys) and Kathy White (Sandhills), I don't know how any of them make any money. With most it sounded more like a labor of love.


editted to add - Ray Schreiner says before they intro, they want at least 1,000 plants available


This message was edited Aug 28, 2008 10:28 AM

Very interesting bonjon. I agree that few iris hybridizers make much money. There are some exceptions I think, and I suspect the Schreiners' and the owners of Cooley's probably make money, don't you?

Both above do because of the Wholesale business. They both have large amount of land they either own or lease, overhead out the gazoo

The red color that OSU and Cooleys have been working on and with comes from gene slicing from the red geranium

It is like with any flower today there is always one color that just has not happened for that kind of flower and they all want (and most of us do too a color that is not there)

D

Back to the siberians....

D

the main goal in hybridizing is to improve the genius
not make money.
money is good so you can do more work but not the goal .

I agree Taz this is why the red is NOT out...

D

This discussion answers a lot of questions about buying not only irises but
almost any plant. Example: About five years ago I bought one of each iris
Spring Hill had in their catalog. They arrived from Oregon. I don't think
Spring Hill is in Oregon. Their call center is some city near the Indiana/Ohio
border. I also ordered tulips from Brecks and some other plants from Michigan
Bulbs. I can't recall which was which but one of them was in Ohio and the
other was Indiana. They all three had strange phone numbers--all with the
same area code and prefix with consecutive numbers. Having some little
knowledge of phone systems after all my years as a telecom tech, I knew
something was not right. They all had to be in the same building working
off the same pbx. It was just a brokerage house as far as I could guess.

All their items were guaranteed but it takes at least 2 years to bring an iris
to full bloom and other plants such as peonies can take 3 or 4 years. When
you reach my age--past medicare age, you don't have that many 3 or 4
years to waste. Guarantee or not, you need to get it right the first time.
I will be buying from major vendors from now on.