NUTRITION 101 Q&A

on request, how i currently feed my free ranging fowl, and dairy goats...[this is long, i don't know how to give a short answer!]

well, i worked it out so i buy the same grains for the chickens as the goats. then for the smaller ones, like the pigeon and the seabrights and the OEGs, i have Deluxe Wild Bird Seed Mix they get every other day instead of the USUAL...

basically their nutrional needs are {OK i did really well in school and in my nutrition class, but typing and coreectling typos is NOT my forte]:

Carbohydrates for energy to go free range.
Plant Protein for when they don't feel like free ranging.
Fiber
Calcium and all other nutrients in a nice balance.

so keep in mind that ALL creatures have a "sweet tooth", like carb addicts, OK? when you begin to switch away from the starter cruble or pellets, start with the least tasty grain, whole oats. lets face it, without some maple syrup and cinnamon, oatmeal tastes pretty dull. need salt when you cook it too...

so when you have them on 50/50 starter and oats, then introduce the sunflower seeds. ymmy! be sure at this point there is a source of dirt, rocks, gravel, or purchase some pullet grit. since mine like to dig in their bedding, i just toss the grit in so they can hunt for it. a small circle in my hand once a week per pen of say, seven birds.

the barley i can get is crimped. they don't need it that way, but that is how they sell it... take away the sunflower seed and offer barley, with less oats, so you have about 33/33/33 of starter[loade dwith corn], oats, and barley.

gradually decrease the sweet carb and protein laden crumble and replace with milo-maize. if you have bantams they would prefer millet or griso. some milo grains are just too big for their dainty mouths...

so i take and use my coffee can and scoop out 1 can each of milo and oats, and half a can of barley, half o fsunflower seed. if i am out of S.S , i use a whole can of barley.

they eat the milo first, then go run off all that energy, get bored and come back picking through the rest. most of which is spilled on the ground at this point. i keep the feeders inside the coop to discourage little thieves called wild birds and roadrunners and quail and dove.

doesn't take long for them to clean it up, if they don't the harvester ants come and help themselves. at the very worst, you might have some grain plants start to grow! cover them with an old laundry basket so they can grow up big, then the ducks will love them!

and the chickens go nuts when i go to feed the goats, wanting to get every crumb they drop. i don't think they have a clue that it is the SAME STUFF!

the goats, two lactating and two doelings, get the same mix.

occasionally the goats get trace minerals [loose] and or molasses and or mustard seed mixed in...

if your chickens are not free ranging they should get more like 1/4 milo instead of 1/3. you don't want to pen them up and then fill them with energy...

i feed the scraps and treats away from the coop. speical area of the garden and property... so anything they leave behind can be consumed by the kittens or scratched into the soil. of course, opnce they get their beaks on a banana peel, the chase is on ALL OVER THE PLACE!

"Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy, a kid'll eat ivy too, wouldn't you?"

It would be another story, but back in the old days, before hybrid corn, synthetic fertilizers, and post-war economy, farm animals ate ALL KINDS of grains and corn was a garden crop for people [mostly]

tf

wow

Thaaaank You!

BTW, your spelling IS bad - It's
"Mairzey Doats an' Dozey Doats an' little lamzy divy..
A kiddley-divey too, woundn't you?

Jeeesh. :-)

Thanks Tam, I was gonna ask you just this question, I am going to Shawnee Mills this next week and was going to make my own up. I will buy in bulk so to get a nice discount, now I just have to buy a lot of metal trash cans.

She's quoting the second verse: "If the words sound queer and funny to your ear, a little bit jumbled and jivey, just say "mares eat oats and does eat oat and little lambs eat ivy" Can't help her with the kid part cause its only in the jumbled part.

Sorry tf--I tried to cover for you........

THANKS TF!

Confession here ~ I totally flunked nutrition! Yours eat the whole grains? Maybe it was the way I went about switching them? Just threw it at them one day, sink or swim! Don't know what I was thinking when I said, don't like Barley!? What do I think B stands for in C.O.B.? duh!

Time to re-think my mix. Need to print this one out. If I remember correctly, whole grains are cheaper. Been awhile since I looked. Been very curious if my 'diet mix' was really healthy or not. With the C.O.B. (all rolled as that's how sold) being mixed 50/50 with layer pellet......

Couple of questions ~ everything I read said 1/2 of diet is corn. Is that not really true? Is corn just used as fattener?
Milo - millet, is that where the extra protein comes from? Or extra carbs?
Whole grains are better for them, right? Or just a matter of how it is given, same values???

Told ya, flunked nutrition Human and animals both! lol

Aw, maaan. I was hoping I had pulled a fast one. No such luck I guess:-)

I have been using the scratch grain mix with the least corn in it (millet, sunflower, oat, and corn) and mixing in crumbles. Where are you getting the bulk of each separate grain? I wonder if it's available here and I just don't know about it? Prices have almost doubled in the last year and I would love to get costs down. Guess I should check into switching to pellets too. At least with adult birds.

Sorry if I spoiled your singing TF

grownut, yeah, what catscan said :-P~ don't worry about it, i don't carry the neatest tune either...

thanks cat!

L2G2, dont' buy more than two weeks at a time if you can help it. you want it fresh, dust free, etc... better nutrition...

PF, C.O.B.? i am not doing good on acronymsn today.... still ticked at cragilsit...

OK, the whole oats [called race horse oats by Nutrena] are actually easier for them to pick up. they eat whole grass seeds from all over the property. and yes, it is cheaper, it has less dust, it is LESS PROCESSED which makes it more nutritious, nothing lost in the crimping...

if i had crimped barley and layer pellet on my plate i woul dpick at the pellets... barley is mostly protein and fiber. you knwo, tastes like sticks LOL...

wish they made kashi for chickens affordable!

CORN IS GRASS GLORIFIED! originally for making flour, like tortillas, our country now consumes more corn than any other substance. pathetic.

CORN IS ALSO A COMMODITY, PENTIFUL AND CHEAP. and modern breeds of chickens, allegedly "designed for battery cages" have been bred to convert corn to meat as cheaply as possible. that is why chicken is the cheapest meat at the market...

computers = garbage in garbage out.
animals = corn in corn out.

i don't want to eat MORE corn. i can't get away from it at the grocery store. so why put it in my eggs, milk and meat that i so carefull riase??? [hey it isn't my spelling it's my tyuping...]

ditch the scratch. how much of that "other grain" do they consume? put corn and whole grains in front of a creature with a sweet tooth, what do you think they will eat? corn first, then milo [carbs convert to sugar].

how nourishing is meat or milk or eggs that is strictly corn fed?

OK, i'll get off the soap box now...

don't forger your chickens also love SCRAPS from the kitchen, grasses and weeds and other plants, and BUGS!!!

they shouldn't eat the same thing day in and day out. it isn't nutrionally sound...

t-f

They typically leave the corn til the very last actually. The scratch I get is not more than about 1/4 corn because that's the best I can do with a pre-made mix. I call our chickens "wil' chickens" because they run all over the property no limits except the road. The feed I give is just a supplement to garden, bug, and flowers which they love to eat.

Personally I don't think the genetically engineered corns etc ARE food. And don't ever mention ethanol to me until you can mulch and lime my land with ground car...:-)

ok, I am listening.. and learning.. so please don't assume any questions are questioning your wisdom great CF.. I just want to make sure I understand and sometimes along the way we learn different things so I want to know the difference.. so.. let me start off slow..


1st let me ask.. where am I going to find this stuff? If I buy from TSC or Rural king and the like I have to buy in 50# bags.. IF I can find all the ingredients.. that would be 150 or so #s.. that is way more than 2 weeks of feed for us.. or am I way underfeeding my girls? I refill when they are empty.. I feed ME every morning.. they free range pretty much all day and have access to grasses, many bugs and lots of berries.. and what ever else is around.. oh the hay grains.. they love what the goat won't touch.

I am confused by Milo.. what is it?

I have never been in a REAL feed store.. you know one of those old delatitaded oned next to the grain elevator with the old antique purina sign. Is that the kind of place I need to go visit?

I have read to sub sunflower in the summer for your corn, as the corn produces heat and you can overheat your chickens in the hot weather. Wouldn't you want to do the oppisite in the winter to help them hold their heat?

frans, well, corn IS what is called a hot feed, but so is milo. milo is a grain that grows on grassy corn looking stalks that dont' get as tall, and have this group of reddish seeds at the top, like a spray you would see in a wreathe almost... all grains are in the grass family. my chickens eat grass seeds because we rarely mow. they get winter rye and all kinds of other grasses, and they LOVE the hay too!

in the winter, it is the carbs that give them the energy to keep warm. assuming the cold keeps them inactive, so instead of burning it through exercise, they put on fat, and/or burn the calories to keep warm [one of the top ten reasons our country is obese is because of central heat and air, we don't burn off any calories by trying to regulate our body temperature]

to keep them warm, they should have a draft free house. i have heat lamps in mine. the lights on timers help with laying, and warm it up before it gets cold out. the white light goes out about 2 hours after the red light comes on....

anything high in calories, simple carbs, or sugar is going to help them keep warm. but i have seen your hen house and don't htink they are going to have an issue of being cold. and the grains are for the birds not for frans LOL [sorry coudln't resist, it HAS to be confusing around your place, 'not "me", ME!']

good point about that being mor ethan two weeks of feed. in which case, just don't leave it lying around in bags, get nice tight containers to store it. it will be fine for a month or more if you keep it free from invaders. still fresher and more nutritious, IMO, than processed feed. the processing causes vital nutrients to be lost, and so they add them back [you will see a LONG list of vitamins on the ingredients tag], and these additives, IF from a natural source, are likely by products of field corn processed to make high fructose corn syrup. or they can be synthetically made vitamins.

some people might mix theirs as soon as they get it, i mix it as i feed it...

you don't nee dPurina or any particular brand. as long as it is "cleaned grains". if you buy it directly from a mill, as you suggested, it may end up being very dusty, and this could result in respiratory problems for you and your flock.

i would think even TSC has this kind of feed. you just haven't noticed, cause when you look at the sign, you look under the poultry category. look for the grains category, or just say "give me whole oats, barley, milo, and black oil SS"

i do feed more SS in the winter. but not to keep them warm, since they have feathers and a heated hen house. to give htem more plant protein when plants and bugs are scarce. we have a short winter around here...

grownut, do the numbers and see if you can save by mixing your own. doens't sound like yours will miss the corn anyhow...

TO CLARIFY: I am not, i said *NOT* telling everybody to feed their chickens like i do. but i get a LOT of questions about what i feed mine, esp from anyone who sees my birds. they are exquisitely healthy. part of that is the fresh air, exercise, and lackadaisical life they lead. simple, as little stress as possible, etc... and part is NUTRITION... just like people...

this is ANYBODY'S THREAD. share what you know, what you have learned, how YOU do it. this way everyone can choose what works best for them and base it on someone else's experience...

tf {NOT CF!}

This is really good information. I have been thinking about making my chicken food, but a couple of things need to be considered. Is is more cost effective? What are the exacts in ingrediants, and am I going to get better results from my birds. Currently, I am really wondering why I have chickens. We have had nothing but rain for the last 3 weeks. My chicken pen is NASTY. It is a pit of foul smelling mud. My chickens are laying an average of 4 eggs per day. This is coming from 19 mature hens. I have 16 younger birds around 17 weeks of age. I am basically waiting for the younger birds to start laying so that I can get rid of the 20 older birds. 16 of them are 3 years old, the other five (includes one rooster!) are 2 years old. I am currently feeding flock raiser by Layena (purina). I am not sure about access to the grains and cost. I am paying $14.85 for 50lb of food that lasts about 5 days. I dont know what to do here. These chickens are not even coming close to paying for their feed. I enjoy having them, but sell their eggs to help pay for their feed. That of course doesnt cover the cost of bedding (shavings, straw for nests), collecting eggs, cleaning eggs, and the overall care of these guys. ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHH! I had pics prev showing feather loss, which looks to be a moult, but how long does this last. Its been happening for a LONG time! I know egg production will drop with this, but this long????????????? Most others prob. would have had these birds in a pot by now, but I have yet to go down that road, and dont think I can yet.

hi, if i remeber right, you had a mud problem in your pen and cleaned it out? maybe you could bring in some new dirt, to raise it up. the rain water, or snow this winter, needs to drain away from the pen, or it will stand in the pen, and they will stand in it.

perhaps thinning out your flock would be best, but the best reason to do it is to have more square feet of space per birds. then they will be less stressed and lay better.

moulting lasts a while. but if you think this should be done, then i would suspect the weather is causing the problems by affecting their living conditions.

think for a second how close to the ground their reproductive system is... now picture yourself lying on the ground in their pen. is it cold or warm? too hot? wet or dry? smelly or fresh?

you pretty much already said there pen was a mess, just painting a picture for others to understand how this affects their stress and laying abilities.

a friend of mine has these conditions in her pen frequently. she gives them cayenne pepper to warm up their body temperature, which brings them back into laying...

yep, 3 bucks a day to feed 36 birds. i bet a lot of that feed is wasted on the muddy ground. see if you can get the feeders INDOORS and suspended over clean dry bedding, if you don't...

OK, to address the cost, obviously it is gonna vary. but i recall layer pellets here being in the 14 dollar range. they are consuming TEN POUNDS A DAY?! that is 4.4 ounces of feed per bird... nope they shouldn't be consuming that much...

so if i remember, my SS is the most expensive, and i refuse to buy it by the 25 lb bag. but with 36 birds, that owuld be fine, and would cost 16 dollars for 25 pounds. then figure the barley is around 10 for 50#, that is five bucks. now add oats at 11 dollars [crimped are 12], and milo at 8 or 9. we have 41 dollars for 150 pounds of balanced grains. or avg of 13.67 per 50 pound bag!!!

*13.67 per fifty pounds*

doesn't sound like much savings. but will it last longer, will it get wasted less, will they lay better, will they look healthier and finish a moult sooner?

i would be very interested in your results. but first i would address their messy pen. maybe relocate them to higher ground in a chicken tractor...

i know the situation has to be incredibly frustrating. certainly hope this info helps jan!

tf

I think free-ranging helps a lot with food cost and nutrition--if you can do it safely. The chickens select what they need and seem less dependent on the food you supply. My bantams and younger more vulnerable birds are in pens--and, although they do have some access to grass and bugs, they seem ravenous when I feed them, while the free-ranging birds are very interested in what I put out, but they sometime just wander off after they figure out if it is a "real treat" or just regular feed and start foraging on their own. Their crops are always shockingly full when I put them to bed.

Thanks for the great info, TF. New pen is currently in the works and just about completed. We have been working on it for about a month. It is 3x or more bigger than their current outside pen. We put a floor on the inside of the coop in July, so atleast they are not on muddy ground inside. I do keep their food inside, so that is at least in clean conditions. The smell coming from the mud outside of the pen is NOT normal! I joke that I have put enough lime down to bury several bodies! Then I joke that maybe my DH has a side hobby I dont know about! We bought another 100lbs of lime for the pen and will do a second rotatilling to hopefully mix the soil better. The new outdoor chicken pen is very green and overgrown. I only worry that it will quickly become in the same condition. I will research the cost of the grains around here. Health wise, it certainly does seem better. I have read about the cayenne pepper, and will try that. Regardless, I will still plan to rehome my older birds at the end of the summer. In addition to their poor egg production, I also have egg eaters. Hoping the new area solves some of this. Thanks again. We are looking at another several days of heavy rain fall, sigh. Soooo tired of rain.

When I do go to the feed store, I will have all the grains separated into metal trash cans that have a tight sealing lid. I do like the price and the convince of not having to buy feed each week. I know fresh is better but when fuel is 4.49 a gallon and it is 20 miles to town. It would be 40 miles to the feed mill.

VERY good thread.. very informative.. and yes.. while I do think tf has a great plan and thank goodness is willing to share everything.. including why she does the things she does and the results she gets.. I would also love to hear from the rest.. including both the positives and negatives..

Grandma always said take in all the advice you can get.. swirl it all around and come up with the best recipie that works for you!

So far I have been buying the bags of "complete" feed, ME is laying every day.. her eggs are getting bigger each day.. she's been laying for about a week.. one day she laid a "rubber" egg. It was the most interesting thing, BUT.. why.. what is lacking and why only on one day? All other days the eggs are solid, good shells. I do feed sides of oyster shell and grit.

Anyway.. again, GREAT INFO, lets keep it going!

Fran - my Henny Penny has laid a couple of rubber eggs. Admittedly, she is only about 22-24 weeks old, so is still fairly new to laying. I have read that younger hens are more prone to rubber eggs. I have read that it is only a problem if it is consistent - not just once in a while. Apparently a number of things can do it, among them not feeding enough calcium (which is clearly not the case with ME) but also, and probably more importantly for ME, stress and change can cause this to happen. Henny Penny laid 3 or 4 normal eggs and then got her 2 "sisters" introduced into the Eglu. Next egg was soft shelled (i.e. rubber egg!). First egg she laid for me was also a rubber egg (day after moving her from the farm where she grew up and going from a big flock to being a single bird). So, both rubber eggs correlated with changes in her environment and possible stress. Given what recently happened with U, maybe ME was stressed or anxious? Or just the change in number? Or just her being young and starting to lay.

That's just my uneducated guess, based on my limited experience so far and what I read.
Claire

Your Grandma was on the money, frans! Great thread -- thanks, tf! I'm in the process of building my chicken tractor (I'm afraid the CF is going to strike) so I'm about to print this out. GREAT starting point -- if I can translate it from tf's flock to mine (which will be 3).

Which begs the "stupid" question -- what do you do with a rubber egg? Probably NOT hatch a rubber chicken, huh? Is it edible?

WOW Brigid, if you buy all that at 50# bags for 3 birds you will have enough for a year at least.

Yeah, if I can't get it in smaller amounts, I'm surely going to put that food vacuum sealer to work. I figure they'll keep longer. I wonder if I should freeze the bags once I have the grains in them?

I am sure you could get them in smaller portions maybe at a health food store, but dont know about the cost there. I have a mill about 40 minutes from me so I could probably get smaller.

so glad this line of conversation is getting poeple thinking. yep, gotta figure fuel into the cost of feed. when we didn't have a feed store here, i had to drive 90+ miles round trip. i sitll only got two weeks worth becaseu that is all i could fit in my van LOL...

wow, frans, cannot fathom ME is laying, that is soooo awesome!

translation of what i say into what you can do is a trick ;-) so, just a littl eside trip here reagrding my spelling/typing...

"I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rgh it pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!"

bridigily, do you treally think, with all this pwer and info and space you have, that the Chicken Fairy is going to let you tget bywith only THREE chicksn???

tf

yes, freezing grains preserves them and keeps bugs out! now figure in the cost of electricity!

I ate the first rubber egg. It was yummy. :-) I did not suffer any ill effects and the insides looked normal.

The second one fell through the roosting bars in the eglu into the poo tray. I didn't eat that one. :-(

I guess it fell through the bars because (1) she laid it on the bars instead of in the nest and (2) its shell was squishy enough that it allowed the egg to slip through the bars. If it had had a hard shell, it wouldn't have fit through the bars. If she'd laid it in the nest, I would've gathered it and eaten it.

So, if the rubber egg can be picked up and carried safely inside, and isn't covered in crud, it seems to be safe to eat.

Brigid, good luck with keeping only 3 birds.

My original plan was to have either 3 standard hens or 4 bantams.

I now have 3 standard hens AND 4 bantams, AND 10 chicks, AND several more standards on the way when my colleague moves to Colorado.

The chicken fairy was all over me like a wet blanket.
Claire

what do you mean "was"?

That was really astounding, tf. I could read that as easily as I could read stuff written right!

Electricity -- the freezer in the garage is running anyway and only half full, so I'll probably save energy by filling it with feed. I could go to the health food store, but I'd wind up paying more per chicken than I ever paid per child!

Claire, keep the CF busy -- I'm not ready yet! Thanks!

yeppers, fill 'er up. we got rid of one freezer becasue of that, so now the other one is near full. should cut back on the bill... getting that email made me feel better about my tryping. i used to be one of those picky poeple who would point out errors to stragners...

speaking of health food store, when they have grains on sale, you can stock up on extras for your birds. if you get chicsk, you may at some point need brewers yeast or cornstarch [i use blue]. then there is flazseed. and flaxseedoil. millet, and, rats, i can't even recall all those grinas names. but it never hurts to have a healthy treat for the chicks, and you may end up liking it too. and the hens like herbal teas. chamomile, any kind of female tea. slippery elm and dandelion are ones i try to have on hand for treating symptoms...

i still need to find a source for dreid chamomile flowers. used to have them at our local grocery store. they eat them AND they help decompose the poo and bedding. luckily i still have some wild chamomile growing here and there [it reseeds itself].

HURRY AND GET READY!
tf

TF - don't even go there!!! I am done for now. Kelly and I are SO sore this morning after spending all yesterday working on our first chicken tractor. We have a second one to build but I'm totally beat. We are allowed 12 chickens per lot, and we have 2 lots, so that's 24 max. I already have 17 with the chicks, and I haven't got the rest of my colleague's birds yet. I'll get rid of any roosters in the chicks (Craig's List or whatever) but will still probably be at the limit because I think he has about 10 hens, and besides, I don't think I can build any more coops for a while. And on top of that, we're getting 6 goats from that same colleague when he leaves, so we have to build a goat barn too.

The CF has to find another victim to pursue for the time being! I am done, done, done! Maybe the CF could go on a holiday for a week, and then come back and get started on Brigid. ;-)
Claire

that would be nice, i think the CF is ready for brigidily, but she doesnt' DO holidays...

big congrasts on your C.T. don't forget to soak in epsom salts at the end of a long chicken slave day!

have you asked him if any of those goats are bred, and when they will freshen? that MAY have an influence on your barn plans...

hmmmmm would you be willing to send me some seeds? I will send ya postage back.

Having my chickens, i do look at the veggy sales more at the grocery store. You know the ones that will go bad soon if not sold. Busted up boxed of dry cereal, like cheerios.

I do have a question, are sweets, like cake and cookies, bad for them, what about chocolate, I know dogs are not suppose to have it but tell my dogs that, they love chocolate.

They are not bred right now - there are 4 does and 2 wethers. We could breed them if we want to. We will see at first how we like having goats. Kelly is interested in goat cheese. We are getting a milk pasteurizer, cheese press and cream separator with them. And some electric fencing. We will decide if we want to breed later. We are allowed a 10x12 barn building without a permit, so that's what we're going to do.

Claire

L2G@, sure, fall is best for planting, i bet i have some seeds somehwere. the ones growing right now don't even have the flowers on them, and luckily the geese and ducks have not discovered them YET.

claire, make it a ocuple inches shy of the limit, just in case... are the does milking?

Yea what kind of goats are they. And 6 should not be a problem with the 10 by 12

Thanks Tam. If ya have some I would love some if not I will look for it around here.

They are nubians. Not milking right now. They have been milked in the past. The couple who owns them is going through a divorce and things are a bit crazy with them. She moved to Colorado without telling him, just up and left him with the 3 kids (human, not goat). I think they stopped milking the goats when things went wrong. Now he is moving to Colorado so that the kids can still visit their mom regularly. That is why we are getting his goats and chickens. But I don't want his roosters because of the noise and because I don't want to increase my flock any more. He has 3 beautiful roos. A light brahma, a barred rock, and I think the other one is an Orpington but not sure on that one. Anybody wants a free roo, let me know...

Plus I will have baby roos from my chicks soon, also for giving away.

Claire

I would be interested in a Buff Orpington Roo if you happen to have one. I need a boyfriend for my hens and some buff babies.

Sheila

wish i lived closer