Can this hydrangea be saved?

I had a big disappointment this year with my Merritt's Supreme Hydrangea. I kept it covered thru the winter under a big styrofoam box. I kept it covered thru the cold Spring nights until all danger of frost had past. For some reason, only the top bud or two on each cane survived, and all the lower ones did not, resulting in a mostly naked looking shrub with lots of pretty blooms. Some of the buds stayed green and alive looking all the way into the summer, but failed to ever start growing. Additionally, the new growth from the base of the plant seems weak to me- there are only about six or seven new shoots and only a few of them have grown signifigantly so far. I applied Holly Tone Fertilizer in the early Spring. Did I really mess up by not just pruning all the branches off in the Spring instead of letting them bloom (I couldn't bring myself to do it). Is there any way that this hydrangea can ever look normal again, and does anyone have any idea why the top buds would survive, but not the bottom ones?

Honestly it looks fine to me--I don't really see a problem. As it gets older, the shrub will probably fill out a bit more and the stems will strengthen up. But if most of those branches are fairly new growth, it often tends to be on the weak side, that's very normal. I'm not sure what you mean about the top buds and the lower ones, hydrangeas typically only bloom on the ends of the branches so if you saw buds lower down on the branches they were probably leaf buds not flower buds. Or if they were flower buds, it could be if the plant's still pretty young that it's only got energy to do a certain number of flowers so the plant knew better than to try and have all those flowers. And 6-7 new shoots from the base sounds pretty good too, I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

By the top buds I mean that the cane was full of buds all the way down, but only the top one or two broke dormancy and put out either leaves or blooms. None of the lower ones did anything, meaning there are no leaves in the center of the plant, except the one or two new bigger stems coming up from the base (most of the ones at the base are quite puny). Last year, which was the second year in the garden, it leafed out all the way up and down the canes, and I got blooms as well. It looked like a normal, full hydgangea last year. I guess I was concerned about the growth from the base seeming weak because I compare it to my Endless Summer Blushing Bride, which had most of it's growth come up from the base and it is very full, tall, and lush right now. Almost no blooms of course, but lots of green. This one looks like the Charlie Brown Christmas Tree Hydrangea.

I guess it's hard to see some of that from the pictures. Unfortunately I can't see an obvious problem, what's there looks healthy so it's hard to say why it might have done that. The only thing I can think of is in my experience, the leaves toward the bottom seem to emerge first before the leaves toward the top of the stems, so it's possible if you got a bit of cold weather at just the wrong time, it could have damaged those leaves that were starting to emerge while the other leaf buds farther up hadn't started to break dormancy yet and weren't as sensitive. I really don't know though, I'm just speculating at this point. But since I don't see any signs of pests/diseases and it's blooming so well I'm not sure what else could be going on. Hopefully someone else will have some other ideas!

Thanks, ecrane. I hope someone else has had a similar experience and can shed some light. I always thought that if you were going to have buds die off in the Spring, it would be the upper ones more than the lower ones. I know with my Blushing Bride, that was the case. And, I had that thing so well covered that I don't even know how I could have lost any buds to the cold. Some folks in the NE forum suggested I write to the people at Hydrangeas Plus for their advice, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. The plant looks ok in my pictures but I have those wire garden supports supporting some of the stems because the mopheads are too heavy for some of those old woody stems. Without the supports, it would look even worse... I have been wondering if it's struggling in the location (too much shade, too many tree roots?), but it seems odd that I'd get so many blooms if that were the case. I'm just unsure what steps I need to take next to get it to return to form. I was going to prune off the tallest, barest stems in a few weeks, but I wonder if that is not enough. The flowers are so pretty until late in the season, that I hesitate to cut them all off...which is probably what I need to do at this point. Ugh.

This message was edited Aug 1, 2008 5:01 PM

Typically the upper buds would be more likely to be hit by cold because they're more exposed, that's why it would have had to be cold weather at one very particular time when the bottom buds have started to break dormancy but the upper ones are a few days or a week behind. Since that's a fairly narrow window in time, most of the time when you have problems from the cold you won't run into that, but if you get a cold snap at precisely the right time it's possible. It is a stretch though, but like I said without any signs of anything else wrong it's hard to say what happened. If it had too much shade it wouldn't be blooming like that, and if the tree roots were a problem it would be wilting a lot and again I wouldn't expect what's there to look healthy and be blooming like that, so I don't think that's what is going on. Unless someone else comes along and knows for sure what's going on, I'd wait and see what happens next year in case this year was just some weird thing. For the floppiness--it's not unusual for hydrangeas especially young ones to be a bit floppy, those blooms are heavy! Some cultivars are probably better than others at growing stems that are strong enough to hold the flowers. And water/fertilizer could play a role too--being a bit heavy-handed with the water or fertilizer could cause the stems to grow faster, and faster growth is usually floppier.

Noreaster, your name says it all. I think you've done a great job with your climate. You probably do much better than my attempts at growing peonies where I live. I grew up in Indiana, and everyone had peonies - because they get the chilling hours they require. I have tried many ways of getting those beautiful blooms, and about every third year, I get blooms, but they will never be like the ones I dream about. The remontants may be your answer, but I am way out of your zone. Hang in there! Those blooms you have sure are nice. I'm an old gardener, so please forgive me, but have you had a soil test to determine PH? (I don't think that's the problem, but what the heck)

No, I've never had the soil tested...I just assume that it is very, very acid under all the pines. The hydrangea was pink when first planted, but in my soil it's deep, dark purple. I never even thought about that being a problem, so that is interesting...hmmm. Maybe too acid?

Another thing that is strange is that some of the buds that "died" don't really even look all that dead. Some do like shrivelled and gone, but many have that shiny red look like they have right as they are about to break out the winter dormancy. There was at least one bud that was still fully green last month. It's like half the plant went into a coma or something.

This year I plan to go back to the cage with leaves method instead of the styrofoam box...maybe that will make a difference. I didn't do it last year because I had several branches break the previous year under the weight of the wet leaves and ice. But first, I hope to see some buds on some of the new growth. I don't want to give up on it, because the blooms really stand out in my mostly green shade garden.

On another note, are the lacecap hydrangeas any more reliable as far as blooms? I saw one recently I really liked ..all the tag said was "blue lacecap improved". I asked at the nursery if you had to winter protect that one, but they were clueless about winter protecting any of them. So I thought I should ask here.

I know the panicle types would give me reliable blooms but I think they require more sun than I have.

I think the lacecaps that are cultivars of Hydrangea serrata are a little hardier than any of the macrophyllas, but as far as I know there's no difference between lacecap and mophead macrophyllas (except of course for the reblooming ones but I don't think there are any reblooming lacecaps). I think your "improved" blue lacecap might be 'Blue Wave'/'Mariesii Perfecta' which is supposed to be an "improved" version of 'Mariesii', but the improvement is in the blooms not the hardiness (I think it's supposed to bloom more prolifically)

Here are some examples of the buds that never grew, yet never died, either. These pics were taken today. One even appears to have a leaf peeking out. I just don't understand what went wrong here

Here is a view looking down into the center of the plant. I just don't know what to do with it now. Should I prune off all the old canes, which have all the flowers on top, including the new growth and next years buds? That would leave just the few new canes coming up from the base. Is it too late to even do that and should I just let it go and deal with the mess next year? I know I should have done it earlier in the season but I kept holding out hope that those buds would wake up and put out some growth. I feel like I've really messed this up.

Looking at those buds I still think it might have been a cold snap at just the wrong time that sort of stopped them in their tracks. Or could be something else, but the rest of the plant looks healthy so I'd be hopeful that it was just a one time weird thing and next year the plant should leaf out properly (assuming you protect it for the winter of course). I'd be tempted to just leave things alone and see what happens next year, but you won't do any long-term harm to the plant by pruning it either, you'll just risk losing some of next year's blooms (but as long as you don't prune the new canes that came up from the base this year then you should still get flowers on them next year so you could prune out the old stuff if you want and still be able to enjoy blooms)

Yeah, I think maybe I'll take off a few of the really tall, flopping ones. I was reading about propagating from cuttings and I thought I might experiment with that, since I'm gonna be cutting stuff off anyway. Nothing to lose, anyway. Though, I don't know what to do with them over the winter, assuming I'm successful. Can I keep any rooted cuttings in the garage over the winter?

I would think you could keep them in the garage--hopefully someone from closer to your zone will know for sure. I think as long as you can keep them from freezing they should do fine.

I'm chiming in late, been gone. I wonder if using the styrofoam made it get too warm underneath the protection. If you had the same wet, cold spring we had then maybe it went from very warm, greenhouse like conditions to the wet and cold and that made the buds die off. I've been covering mine with plastic tarplike houses and left them on until late May due to our lousy spring and was worrying it was getting too hot under there during the sunnier days but mine fared ok. I didn't get many blooms at all on the Nikko Blue but the few I got were better than none that had been my experience in the past. This year I plan on doing the leaf cage thing I've read so often about on this forum. I just love your color though and wish I had the nice acidy soil. Good Luck!

Thanks, medinac. The color is even richer and deeper purple today...for some reason my camera can't capture it. I love it too, which is why it's worth the extra effort for me, even though it really is a royal pain. The reason I did not do the cage with leaves last year is because I lost several branches under the weight of all that wet snow and ice...and it was kind of yucky getting all the wet leaves out of there in the Spring. But maybe that's a more reliable method that I'll go back to. I'm debating whether or not to go to the same effort for Blushing Bride. I have a few blooms on that, but I think they came from the one or two low buds that survived the winter. Therefore, no true blooms on the "new" wood as advertised. Seems like to get a lot of blooms, that one may need winter protection too. Not sure that one will be worth it.

How old is your Blushing Bride? I know some people who have the original Endless Summer have found that the plant blooms better on new wood once it's been in the ground a few years and had time to get established, so if yours is fairly young it may just need a little time. You'll definitely have more blooms if you protect it though since then you can have both the old wood and new wood blooms so if you're willing to go to the extra effort it'll still help.

I just got Blushing Bride last year, and I just moved it last week, so it's really not established now. Good to hear that performance improves after a while. It put out lots of new growth this year...the canes that came up directly from the ground are probably close to three feet, and there are quite a few. Much more vigorous in that department than my Merritt's Supreme. Just not many blooms. It may be tough coming up with enough leaves to cover both hydgrangeas this year. Maybe I'll try wrapping BB in burlap and see how that goes.

I have always had success in growing hydrangeas in New York; now I'm in NC and having more difficulty. I have a few questions:

-how do you get them to bloom; they have lots of foliage but no blooms (Annabelle nd Macrophylla)

-any experience growing Tardiva (full sun, pruning, etc?)

Thanks. Ellen

How long have they been in the ground? If you planted them this year or even last year many shrubs take a couple years to really get going. The majority of shrubs that I plant (hydrangeas and otherwise) don't bloom in the year following the year I plant them, but then the year after that most of them will bloom a little, but it still takes another year or two beyond that in many cases before they're putting on a really good show. The other possibility is too much nitrogen--that will lead to lots of green growth and not so many flowers. Or with the macrophylla if it's one that blooms on old wood (which is most of them except for Endless Summer, etc) if you pruned it in fall/winter/spring you pruned off where the flowers would have been. Annabelle blooms on new wood though so that wouldn't be a problem for it.

Noreaster - My Endless Summers did get more and more blooms as they grew older and matured. Mine were planted in 8/06 - there's a picture on this forum with my brown dog amongst them. I used the triple phosphate just on thos this year on them and I got a ton of blooms vs. my others I did not use it on. Always on new wood as I never cover them.

sawpalm - I have Tardiva, they are in shade all day until about 3:00 p.m. then get the afternoon sun and they get a fair amount of blooms, but then my climate is close you what you used to have in NY. Next year I will try the triple phosphate on all of my hydrangea. Why no blooms on your Annabelle is a mystery to me. I cut mine down to about 4-5 inches in Spring and they always shoot up quickly and I get alot of blooms on those as well with some being in almost full shade.

ecrane - Do you think a shot of the triple phosphate may help for blooms for sawpalm next Spring?

When do you apply that triple phosphate and how much would you use for one hydrangea?

I used the Espoma brand and the directions are 1/2 tsp. per ft. of branching. The granules are fairly large so it doesn't take much.

And when do you apply that? I usually use Espoma Holly Tone in the Spring- so I should try just the Triple Phosphate instead?

One of the buds I posted eariler in this thread is actually attempting to grow. Just a little late, I'd say! Actually many of the comatose ones appear to be attempting to wake up after all this time. Very strange.

Noreaster - I'm sorry for only answering part of your question. I used both the Holly Tone and the Triple Phosphate in early Springtime when I got buds on the new wood.
snapple45 gave me the tip about the triple phosphate.

Very strange you're getting buds now. It must be weather conditions and very confused plants. I hope they will be okay for next season, budding now.

I also wonder whether the styrofoam had something to do with it. Not enough light maybe?

Karen

Yes, but it wouldn't have had any light buried under leaves the previous year either. And I've also seen tips that say to put an inverted garbage can over plants in winter. There is a person on another forum that posted a detailed thread about winter protecting hydrangea where he constructed a sort of igloo out of garbage bags stuffed full of leaves, so again, total darkness with that method too. I thought when they were dormant they don't need light? Or water? I'm still pretty new to gardening and I don't understand what needs a dormant plant has during the winter months. I think I've asked about it before on DG but don't think I got many responses about that, but I'd still really like to know.

Honestly, I don't know for sure either. But it seems only natural to me that any plant would want some daylight even when dormant. In our zones the hours of daylight are pretty limited already in winter. I believe increasing lengh of day is one signal to plants to wake up in spring, along with warming temperatures, right? Or am I off base here?

I never cover plants with a solid material in winter. I mulch everything, including hydrangeas with shredded leaves but only a couple of inches of them, I never totally block light to the plant.

Can anyone more knowledgeable shed some light (pun) on this subject?

Karen

Yes, inquiring minds want to know! Believe me, I have scoured the internet for this info but all I find is that macrophylla hydrangeas in my zone need "winter protection"...it's hard to find really detailed specific info. I did gradually remove the styrofoam panels in the Spring, when it was time to wake up...but made sure to keep it totally covered during the cold nights. I had wondered if it wasn't lack of light that caused the problem, but lack of water? I don't think mulching with just a few inches would do much to protect the buds in my zone...my guess is that I would end up with blooms at the bottom but nothing up top, like a lot of the hydrangeas I see around town look. I'm also still fairly confused as to how much protection the buds need during the actual winter. I understand that they are particularly vulnerable in the early Spring when they start to wake up...but do they really need to be entirely covered throughout the entire winter if they are in a dormant state? Confusing!!

Noreaster - The macrophyllas needing to be covered are the ones that bloom on old wood (which technically is all of them). The Endless Summers will bloom on the new wood growth if the old wood buds get killed over the winter without protection or if they survive the winter only to get zapped by late spring frosts (happened to me 2 years in a row because I don't protect mine).

I've always covered mine with tarp teepees but have not had much luck getting blooms except for this year I got a few. I too don't know if it's the darkness, dryness or what the deal is. I'm going to try covering them with the leaves this year but my Nikko Blue is about 5 feet around by 4 feet tall or so. That's alot of fencing around and alot of leaves to cover the whole thing. I guess I'd have to throw leaves on the whole thing to protect all the buds. With settling over the winter, I don't know how that will work to protect the whole plant.

I know, it really does take a ton of leaves, especially after they settle and compact, which is probably why I won't bother covering my ES Blushing Bride. I'd be surprised if I have enough leaves to cover Merritt's Supreme this year, which is probably five feet in diameter now. That's why alternative methods of winter protectio intrigue me! The year I covered MS with leaves, I kept bags of leaves on reserve to refresh the pile as needed. What a pain!

I don't know for sure whether day length has any impact on when hydrangeas break dormancy, but I suspect that warming temperatures is the primary driver (that's why my hydrangeas will leaf out a long time before someone in a colder zone) Plus I've seen people say they've put trash cans and things over their hydrangeas for the winter and theirs have still leafed out fine in the spring and if it needed to sense when day length was getting longer then that approach wouldn't work too well.

Yes, lack of water occured to me too. A styro box would divert water away. Re: light, the plant aslo needs light for photosynthesis to begin making energy, and maybe that box was in place a little too long in spring.

Noreaster, did the styrofoam totally cover all parts of the plant? Did it have any holes punched in to allow water to penetrate.

I don't really know these things, just guessing on my part. Putting 2+2 together, thinking about what makes plants in general tick- sunlight, air, water, nutrients ....but I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination.

But my opinion is that that plant will be fine by next year. It might not be having it's most robust year but still has a lot of big leaves to carry on life functions.

I don't think I'd cover it with styrofoam again though, or a garbage can or any solid object.

Karen

I found an interesting article about dormancy on woody plants. It's not specific to hydrangea, but my guess would be that these factors could be true in any plant.

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/DENDRO/forestbiology/htmltext/chapter6.htm

Karen

Thanks for all the good information. I just realized, upon reading all these threads, that the reason I have one hydrangea that does nothing but put out leaves (and doesn't grow) is probably because it's under a.tree and is competing too much with the tree roots. It's going to be moved asap/

kccrna, very interesting info, thanks for posting that. The box covered the whole plant...there were gaps here and there where the panels met the frame, but it was mostly covered and would not have recieved water while it was covered

There is still the mystery though, of why the top bud or two grew normally and bloomed, while all the buds below did not. Some of those lower buds completely shriveled and died, but many just stayed in a dormant looking, but alive state- until now, when several of them are attempting to finally grow.

I'm still sticking by my theory of some cold weather at just the wrong time that damaged those buds but not the others--some dying and others being very slow to get going sounds like exactly what will happen with cold damage.

Yes, but, I was hyper vigilant about keeping it well covered when the temps dropped. There was only one or two really cold nights after the buds started to wake up, and on those nights I not only had the box on, but I covered the box in moving blankets!

Are any of you old enough to remember the old margarine commercial "It's not nice to fool mother nature"? I think it's often the case that we gardeners are able to do that to some extent, but, basically Mother Nature will have her way in the end. When we cover a plant for frost, it might or might not help to limit the damage.

Covering plants with styrofoam, plastic, and other such things just seems too unnatural to me, which I guess is why I stick to more organic, natural mulches. It reminds me of this heavenly view of gardening. No matter how many times I've read it over a period of year, it still tickles me.

http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/02/Oct/mulch.html

Karen

Yeah, I agree that it's not "natural"...but what are ya gonna do if you want a punch of color in an almost entirely shady garden? I know that the real solution is to not have a macrophylla hydrangea at all in my zone. I don't really care for impatiens, so for me, this is one color element of my garden that I don't mind going to some extra effort for, even if it's not natural. I'm all for using leaves...I rarely throw any leaves away, in fact-most get composted. That said, filling a 5' wide by 3-4' high cage full of leaves is not fun, nor is removing the soggy leaves in the Spring, so if there is another, easier method I'm all ears, even if it's not natural. I'd like to simplify my life as much as possible these days.