How native is native ?

In trying to develop a wildlife garden ( I invite you to look at what my place looked like less than three years ago compared to what it looked like earlier this month )

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/844911/

I planted quanities of plants that grew in the area that fruited or bore seeds for food for birds . There are some nurseries in the area that sell " native " defining that as plants that grow in a 500 mile radius . Seeking some diversity I have planted some of these . Some plants native to Utah , Nevada but not to Arizona . Examples ; Prunus pumila L. var. besseyi - western sandcherry , Prunus fasciculata - desert almond . Considering acquiring Shepherdia argentea - silver buffalo berry which grows in New Mexico . These plants can grow here but am I introducing " exotics " ?

So question is as title of threads asks , how native is native ? As you can see in my other thread my area was rather sparse . Am I planting species that local native birds will not likely utilize ?

I would check this link.

http://aznps.org./

I am familar with the Arizona native plant society Mrs. Ed . I attended a tour that the Tucson chapter hosted called " Wild in the city " . I found myself slightly amused when I found that there were some invasive species that are listed on thier site in some of the demonstration gardens . Azolla pinnata, a free floating aquatic fern like plant was in one of the ponds .

http://aznps.org./invasives/GrowNative/main_pages/aquatic_plants.htm

I do support thier motives and perhaps may join thier organization . One of thier supporting nursery members ( desert survivors ) is the nursery that suggested the 500 mile radius rule of thumb . That is all that they stock and sell in thier nursey is plants that fall in that range .

Ah, well then… no help there! ;)

Should have known you'd be on top of the situation!

So would the 500 mile radius rule make sense to most here ?

I believe that the real issue with native vs. non-native isn't so much about if it was ever there in the past. The associated word that bothers me is invasive. If I put an orchid out in my yard for the summer in Michigan and forget it that orchid will be dead by fall. If you can get a beneficial plant to grow and it doesn't choke out your neighbor's garden, who knows if the same species wasn't in your area 500 years ago? If I drive to my vacation property 200 miles away and take several varieties of wildflowers back home they won't grow. The soil, PH and weather are so different that I would have to work at getting an individual plant to survive. There is one "wildflower" that would make it here at home and soon I'd see it for miles around - Spotted Knapweed. The House Finch was isolated to the southwest until man introduced it in New York and it's now spread across the nation. Most birds from the southwest would never have survived. If it lives in my yard and doesn't leave my yard and I don't have to coddle it I don't care if the line is a mile away or 1,000. The Double-crested Cormorant wasn't native to the Great Lakes region until the 1800s. It introduced itself and is now invasive. It's so invasive that the federal government allows oiling eggs and shooting under permit. Enjoy! Nature doesn't draw lines.

lonediver,
I have not adhered to the pre- European settlement choice of plants in my own garden. When adding plants I have deliberately chosen natives from the southeast that would fit certain hotter artificial mini environments like along the driveway as suggested by the Wild Ones.
For the reforestation project I am involved in we have been more careful and have tried to stay in a 50 mile radius. But at a talk I attended in the spring a ecologist pointed out that plants would move with global warming, if they could, along on open corridor.

Are the local nurseries selling the 500 mile radius plants and calling them native because they are easier plants to grow and can make a better profit?

I think you are doing an admirable job in supporting wildlife.

Well I do not know the answer to the question ( Are the local nurseries selling the 500 mile radius plants and calling them native because they are easier plants to grow and can make a better profit? ) without questioning the management/owners . There is this statement at this one nurseries website ( This independant nursery is well thought of by many locally ) .

http://www.desertsurvivors.org/index.html

statement is taken from here ;

http://www.desertsurvivors.org/Nursery.html

" Plant Nursery
Desert Survivors Native Plant Nursery is located on the banks of the Santa Cruz River in Tucson. We grow well over 400 species of bioregional plants. We have chosen to define bioregional as plants which are native to within 500 miles of Tucson. This allows us to grow plants from the Sonoran Desert, Chihuahuan Desert, and Mohave Desert, although our primary focus is on plants native to southern Arizona. Over the years, plants of various desert origin have been offered at Desert Survivors, but we have decided to grow only plants indigenous to our region. Native plants give us a sense of place, and are important to supporting native pollinator populations and fauna.

As Arizona is the 3rd most biodiverse state in the United States, we are not at a loss of species to choose from. In fact, over 600 species are native to the Tucson Mountains, over 1000 species are native to the Rincon Mountains and over 1250 species are native to the Santa Catalina Mountains. And this is just the diversity found within 50 miles of the Nursery, not to mention the rest of southern Arizona."

This is certainly a more admireable practice than the random selling of plants done by box stores such as Home Depot . The only comfort that can be drawn from box stores choices of plants is that some 85% of them will not survive in the wild here . However some of those that do have wrecked havoc . Grasses are of particular concern , in desert areas where a lot of these invasive grasses have grown , they will do well in cooler times of the year but then as they dry out in warmer months they make fires burn hotter as they have created a more dense fuel . The consequence of killing saguaro cactus that normally would survive cooler , less intense fires . That is but one example , but there are many concerns similar throughout the nation .

Stelco's ideas/premise above is probably more in keeping with my own beliefs/feelings . There is a local wholesale grower that I have some access to through an aquaintence ;

http://www.mswn.com/

They have a wider range of plants , primarily from the southwest area but not limited too (thier site is very educational if one takes the time to explore it ) . My imediate area is very limited in plant selection due to low rainfall . Weather extremes here can be very harsh ( my averages can be seen at link below )

http://weather.msn.com/monthly_averages.aspx?wealocations=wc:USAZ0221

Global warming , etc. seems to have made for hotter, longer summers . We had record number of days last year, of days over 110 degrees .

I am not adverse to the idea of these other plants from within the 500 mile radius myself as it is my belief that the more plants that I can provide that have fruits/berries , that not all these plants bear at the same time . Resulting in more food sources throughout the year . I am located in migration paths so as years progress and my place matures it could be possible that more birds will be attracted here . There is a gentleman near Nogales , Arizona that seems to have done that specifically in the case of hummingbirds .

http://birdfotos.com/brdwatch/rancho/rancho04.htm

http://www.lasr.net/pages/city.php?Nogales&Arizona&City_ID=AZ0413011&VA=Y&Attraction_ID=AZ0413011a006

http://www.humabout.net/hendrix.html

It is much to aspire to to attempt to achieve anything similar but that is my goal . Certainly better in my opinion that the common practice here of wholesale bulldozing of lands to put up more tract homes . Than having local home owner associations who have approved plant lists . Oddly something that is a bit of a contreversy here is that these approved plant lists rarely if ever have ANY native plants on them at all .

I can live with stelcos idea/premise and your own opening statement sempervirens ;

" I have not adhered to the pre- European settlement choice of plants in my own garden. When adding plants I have deliberately chosen natives from the southeast that would fit certain hotter artificial mini environments like along the driveway as suggested by the Wild Ones. "

Who are " the Wild Ones " ?

Here's a link the Mission statement provided by Wild ones. Basically they promote the use of native plants to create biodiversity thru their organization. Within that link, you'll find another link to local chapters.

Native plants mean different things to many people. Yes, some people would say if they aren't from your county pre- European settlement specifically, then those plants are "exotic". Some are happy as long as their from the part of the state, some prefer them to be from the whole state, etc. There's so many different people with an equally amount of differing opinions.

It depends on which country you reside. That alone plays a huge role.

I'm not a "Purist" by anyones definition. The native nurseries I visit carry plants from a 90 mile radius. I also buy mail-order, from 2 nurseries. 1 in MI and 1 in WI. For that matter, we lived a short time near Chattanooga TN. I love the arboretum down there and have gone to the native plant sale they have and I've purchased their plants. Some might think they wouldn't survive because it's a long way away. About 611 miles south of here to be exact. I don't purchase plants that have no chance in surviving up here. For instance the plants that are for zone 7 or even zone 6. For me, the genotype of the seed, without a DNA test, doesn't make much sense to me and quite frankly, I don't understand it. Who's to say, I mean really say, that a plant I put in the ground and it's the name, is that different than the ones growing naturally here.

For invasive, the word, to me, holds more true regarding the plants that have taken over and choked out any native vegetation. The plants that I think of, come from other countries. And they don't cause a problem in other countries, but they do here. It's hard to believe, for me, that a plant that is native, indigenous to my county even, would be considered an invasive. Ever. Doesn't make sense to me.

Terry,

Thistle! Will you pull mine?

Markie, I'd do it for you, but you don't even e-mail me anymore! No phone calls, nothing! hmph...☺

This trustee stuff ain't what it's cracked up to be. The birds have me busy, too. HOSP have been driving me and the Martins nuts. Lost two Martin nests with eggs to them. Lost 11 Martins eggs in all to them, so far. Oddly, that equals the number of HOSP that will not be bothering anything ever again.

So far I've fledged 5 Bluebirds and 5 Tree Swallows from the remote site and 5 Tree Swallows from home. The Bluebirds renested and mom wouldn't let me count the eggs on Saturday. She just looked at me as if to say "Close the %$##@ door!!!". Had four more active Tree Swallow nests. I had 22 active Purple Martin nests on Saturday. Two nests had six young each and the other 20 held 70 eggs. Looked like more nests will have eggs and egg laying had not finished in several compartments.

Don't know how many baby Wood Ducks fledged and I'm guessing that I had eight Chickadees fledge at home.

How is the HOSP situation there?

Awww poor Markie. Never a dull moment, ey? If you'd talk to the poor momma Bluebird, it might just get you someplace!☺ Calm down Mark, Rome wasn't built in a day. You're only 1 man, doing what he can when he can. I have faith in you. Be easy on yourself. You're always way too hard on yourself!

E-mail me regarding the HOSP please☺